On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote: This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all. Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW.
LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams.
10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document.
On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote: MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA.
another one.. read up.
Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better.
Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder.
I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you.
On September 13 2012 09:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote: What kind of fucking "press release" was that? What amateurs.... That was absolutely ridiculous just give the guy back his 2000 and piss off...
The actual "press release" as they call it states nothing it gives 2 interviews and... one paragraph? Ministry of Win is quickly turning into the Ministry of Shit
For someone not part of MoW management you seem to have an incredible amount of information about their practices and show a certain level of bias whilst wearing your rose-tinted glasses with the MoW logo on the lenses.
No .. i just can read.. what past residents of MoW are saying , everytinhg that i write was write already in this thread ( check KarmY post history , he write many times how pratcice looks in MoW "
Everyone that was , or is in MoW house never said bad thing abouth MoW , meh maby Desrow that polish food is not to healthy for him. Only Person that shit talks at MoW is Fuzer...only him why.. ? I dont know Fuzer , but many people write here is trolled many times on stream and he is BM in game .. maby here is the answer..
Karmy leaves and you take his place?
I didn't leave. Still looking through, Just done trying to be the voice of reason. Any way I can prove that I'm not " contracted by MoW" I'll do it. This is a joke lol
On September 13 2012 09:16 Sadistx wrote: Wait, so you PAY them 600 euros/month AND you have an obligation to stream 150h AND they take a cut of the stream revenue?
This is bar none the worst deal in e-sports since KESPA stopped treating b-teamers like slave labor. At least b-teamers didn't have to pay the pro-gaming house. I'm actually sitting here laughing at how bad this is.
If you think you need to pay someone 600 euros/month to become better at the game, you'll never ever ever become good enough at this game to recoup your 'coaching' costs, unless your sponsor pays this money for you, in which case I'm wondering why did someone decide to sponsor you if you need this much coaching?
Really? Do you know how much it costs to lease a 4+ bedroom house with a large lot in Poland? How much does it cost for an average person per month to buy their food, $200? Times 10. How much does it cost to hire a cook for them? How about the coaches? The computers and equipment? How much do they have to pay in taxes from the fees they collect? Lawyer fees? Accountant fees? Management? Promotion?
Anyways, if players think it's worth that much then it probably is. A talented and passionate coach is priceless.
That said I can sympathize more with your second point, however there's obviously a market for this as pro and non pro players have joined MoW and the majority seem to view their stay favourably. Many teams don't have team houses, and their players are scattered through out the world in different timezones. MoW provides stability, and structure. Other people are semi pros looking to break into the proscene and MoW seem to provide them the environment to succeed without having to worry about cooking or other things (Presumably this is what a team would provide).
That said, MoW's handling of the entire situation was just bad. First off MoW didn't even provide Fuzer an invoice for his $1200 prepaid fees and boss throws that back in his face? Talk about incompetence. And a 10 year non-competitive clause especially in an industry where the shelf life of the game/industry ain't that long is dubious. Other questionable things aside like a screenshot of a Skype conversation taken out of context, this entire thing leaves a sour taste in my mouth.
[QUOTE]On September 13 2012 09:49 LgNkarmy wrote: [QUOTE]On September 13 2012 09:48 Awesomeness wrote: Anybody wanna make a poll if snute was payed by MoW to do damage control? or desrow? or titan? or ret?
This community fucking retarded sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Noone of all those did 25+ defensive MoW posts, so no poll for them.
On September 13 2012 08:57 btx0 wrote: This is ridiculous. 150h / month streaming, 10 year non compete, pressuring people into signing a contract without legal council, paying back money only after bad publicity and a very weak press release not addressing the issue at all. Unless these things get cleared up I'd be surprised to see anyone joining MoW.
LOL when you live in gaming house and you play only one game , why you DONT stream ? Its good for player fans to see them stream.. , people that are biching around that players stream to much lol.. its good for players also , they can make more fans by streams.
10 year non compete ? you dont even read this OP good. You can compete where you wanna. You just cant make your own gaming house and take ideas from MoW house , this is in document.
On September 13 2012 09:17 Ikuu wrote: MoW sounds shady as fuck. 10 year non-compete, forcing people to stream a certain number of hours and then taking a cut, and for some reason they need to sign an NDA.
another one.. read up.
Because Stream is NOT good for training. Polt suffered greatly when he non stop streamed, same with ForGG. And all the top streamer on TL is not getting any better.
Going by your logic...let pro gamers DONT STREAM , then what with us fans..? how to support players ? how to cheer for them.. ? Players wanna stream because of fans , and they make money from streaming. They have closed pratcice sesions in MoW house first 5 h of day , when they play custom games.. and there is time for stream for fans.. money.. and ladder.
I ask once agine ... you wanna players stop streams..? really ? I dont get you.
On September 13 2012 09:31 NeMeSiS3 wrote: What kind of fucking "press release" was that? What amateurs.... That was absolutely ridiculous just give the guy back his 2000 and piss off...
The actual "press release" as they call it states nothing it gives 2 interviews and... one paragraph? Ministry of Win is quickly turning into the Ministry of Shit
For someone not part of MoW management you seem to have an incredible amount of information about their practices and show a certain level of bias whilst wearing your rose-tinted glasses with the MoW logo on the lenses.
No .. i just can read.. what past residents of MoW are saying , everytinhg that i write was write already in this thread ( check KarmY post history , he write many times how pratcice looks in MoW "
Everyone that was , or is in MoW house never said bad thing abouth MoW , meh maby Desrow that polish food is not to healthy for him. Only Person that shit talks at MoW is Fuzer...only him why.. ? I dont know Fuzer , but many people write here is trolled many times on stream and he is BM in game .. maby here is the answer..
Fuzer might not be the nicest person / best player (pretty sure he is not), but he raised legitimate issues that MoW did not refute in anyway.
I love how haters and drama lovers are just passing the posts of Karmy / Snute, or are just saying that they were paid to write them. Seriously people are 99% of you on this forum are trolls or just below 50 IQ ?
On September 13 2012 08:42 nakedsurfer wrote: [quote]
Welmu dropping them facts like a boss!! ♥
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares....
Ministry of Win's best action right now, REGARDLESS OF WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE TAKEN PLACE is just to resolve this with Fuzer, have Fuzer make a statement that the matter has been resolved and he's apologetic towards MoW for causing them trouble, despite the circumstances, and then MOW release a statement somewaht like the following:
"We, the Ministry of Win, would like to make a further statement, regarding the happenings with Fuzer.
Now that the details, many of which we did not intend to become public, have been released, we realise that at times there have been things said and actions taken which are unbecoming of the image we wish to build and the training environment we wish to provide.
We have discussed and resolved with Fuzer the issues, and we're pleased to report that after a more level headed discussion, we have agreed terms and refunded to Fuzer the portion of his payment which we have mutually agreed constitutes a reasonable amount for the portion of services we will not be providing to him.
We will also be looking to move forward and learn from this. We hope to provide a much less confusing contractual environment for our players and staff in future, and we will be looking at revising wording and terms in our contracts moving forward.
We will also certainly look at instituting a proper system of payment, whereby situations like this one, arising from a player living in the house without having signed his contract prior, will not occur.
We would like to apologise to all Starcraft fans, but we hope that Fuzer's most recent post will show you there is no bad blood between us, and in future, the testimonials of those players still in the house, and the many more we hope will follow them, will prove to you that we are a respectable organisation dedicated to providing Starcraft and the foreign scene with the best training and opportunities we can, at the highest levels"
On September 13 2012 09:47 wozzot wrote: So all of this drama is going on over less than $600? Because MoW wouldn't give the guy his rent money back after he refused to agree to the terms of a contract that wasn't even shown to him until after he arrived in the gaming house?
what
It's over 600 EUROS.If you've been living in a cave for the last, idk, 20 years (?) you might not know this, but the Euro is worth about 1.5x the amount of the US dollar.
LMFAO they called that a press release? More like damage control... Fuzer, I am with you 100% now this scumbag business robbed you and tried to scam you.
On September 13 2012 09:47 wozzot wrote: So all of this drama is going on over less than $600? Because MoW wouldn't give the guy his rent money back after he refused to agree to the terms of a contract that wasn't even shown to him until after he arrived at the gaming house?
what
And that he wanted a second opinion on that contract from another person but Ministry Of Win refused since they wanted some proof of that the person in question was an licensed attorney.
[QUOTE]On September 13 2012 09:50 Gardel wrote: [QUOTE]On September 13 2012 09:49 LgNkarmy wrote: [QUOTE]On September 13 2012 09:48 Awesomeness wrote: Anybody wanna make a poll if snute was payed by MoW to do damage control? or desrow? or titan? or ret?
This community fucking retarded sometimes.[/QUOTE]
Noone of all those did 25+ defensive MoW posts, so no poll for them. [/QUOTE] Not defensive posts.. It only seems defensive because everyone wants to hate them so badly they don't want to hear logic. I'm not trying to defend MoW, I admitted they handled it poorly, They did to. It won't happen again, But you still want to hate? Everyone here is just fighting off what you have "heard" I lived in the house, I know how it was ran, I know what the contract/NDA stated, I just came here to try and answer questions and try to calm the drama, But clearly you guys don't want it.
On September 13 2012 09:48 Awesomeness wrote: Anybody wanna make a poll if snute was payed by MoW to do damage control? or desrow? or titan? or ret?
This community fucking retarded sometimes.
Don't forget Destiny. He was obviously the first on the defense payroll... (even though none of them are posting anything defensive, just clarifying misinformation)
On September 13 2012 08:46 CeriseCherries wrote: [quote]
so they are right that it isn't 4 hours a day
idk i just feel like it takes two to make a mess
I applaud Welmu's ability to do math. Though if the agreement was for 5 hours a day minimum it would say that. However you have the obligation to stream for 150 hours a month. I don't imagine its much of a stretch to think of the players playing the game for 8 hours a day. So if you turn the stream on during that time, you finish with over 11 days in the month, to do whatever. They partnered with twitch, so even previously non featured streamers would become featured. Which would enable them to profit off of commercials, while giving a % to MoW.
Lol, just stop with the ridiculous 8hours a day streaming thing. Thats funny
Did you even read what he wrote?
Do you know how annoying it must be to stream for 8 hours straight? I mean, we're not just talking about taking a short break. You're not making any revenue when you take a break from streaming, so streaming 8 hours straight is basically just taking short breaks to eat maybe a small bag of pretzels or something, going to the bathroom, getting a glass of water.
5 hours a day is a bit unreasonable for streaming, especially when you consider the fact that most people don't want to stream every single day. Even if you only take 2 days off, you're still going to have to make up 10 hours over 5 days (7 hours a day!). TLO, the #1 streamer in terms of hours, only had 142.5 hours. It's a ridiculous thing for MoW to want their players to do, and if they're charging that much for them to go there in the first place, they should have just included that amount (or some of it) in the contract instead of forcing them to stream that much.
You don't get it, do you? If they stream 8hours of day, it means they have 11days a month to not stream at all! And frankly, when all you do is playing Starcraft all day long, its not troublesome at all. I have streamed myself around 8hours in 1day a few times and it wasn't annoying at all, despite doing it with 20-40viewers avg. I'm sure if I actually had a reasonable number of viewers (like ~100 and more) I would love to do that. And try to understand the fact, that people like Fuzer would never get any money at all from Twitch, cause they would never get a partnership without MoW, so in fact he still was getting more money than the $0 he would normally get.
Lol, the whole point is to get better.
1.) People do not get better when they stream their practice. Numerous pro players have said that streaming their practice games hinders their play and does not help them in any way.
2.) 8 hours straight 3 or 4 days in a row? Do you realize how tiring that is? You can stream that maybe one or two times a week, but doing that every week? Even the highest amount of streamers have to take breaks and can't do that. TLO had 142.5 hours, a ridiculous amount and had to take long breaks during his streaming.
3.) If they really want money from their streaming, fine whatever. Why not just include that cost in the contract and allow them to take whatever money they make from streaming? It's not really fair to tell them after the fact that they have to stream 5 hours a day (at least) and then tell them they don't even get to keep all of the money. If you're not even getting adequate amounts of food, why should you be giving them ADDITIONAL money to WORK?
You clearly have no idea what you are writing about. 1.) Yes, I can agree with you about this point, it's probably not good to stream your practice, strategies etc. for the competitive reasons, however, that pretty much applies for the real top pros, inventing new strategies etc.
2.) It's not tiring at all... Streaming doesn't equal having a webcam and microphone on and talking 24/7 while playing. All you have to do is having x-split on in the background while you play, if you don't feel like it you don't have to talk, you don't even need to check the chat. Also, they know about it before coming, they aren't getting told after the fact that they don't keep all the money. Please, don't even mention the food because it's just silly point. Fuzer saying they get only 1hot meal a day is just hard to consider serious. Yes, believe it or not, but in Poland we have breakfast, which is usually sandwiches/fruits/cereals, dinner which is the biggest meal of the day and is hot, and then supper which is usually sandwiches again (altough of course you can have some hot stuff like sausages, eggs and what not).
3.) Please, realise that if not for MoW, Fuzer would get literally ZERO money whatsoever from streaming! Check the requirements Twitch.tv actually has before they can give you partnership and share the ad revenue with you. The truth is Fuzer would pretty much never get it and he should be glad that MoW with their partnership actually gives him the opportunity to get some money from it.
LOL Ok so you agree with #1, your argument for #2 is that it's "not tiring at all," yet you keep ignoring my point. You can't take a break if you're streaming without losing revenue (no one to run ads), you can't really take a break to go get a meal, and you can't really go to the bathroom without losing revenue. That is indeed tiring. You also can't really just go workout (something ideal to playing and practicing well) if you're streaming.
#3, I already acknowledged this, but if he's going to be making money from the streaming, why the fuck would they not just include it in his contract to begin with (maybe 50 euros more) and then just tell him keep the money from streaming. Instead, they're making him stream a shit ton and he basically gets no money from it. Wtf. That's just screwed up and not fair to Fuzer.
Also, your whole claim that in Poland you have breakfast is absolute bs. In America, it's common not to eat breakfast for many people. Does that mean everyone doesn't eat breakfast? Karmy already said that the meals was an issue at MoW, so why are you arguing that they weren't? Your entire post just shows how you are blindly defending MoW for stuff that is absolutely unacceptable by today's standards.
I don't understand your second point. Then you just lose revenue if you don't run the ads. Whatever. How is that an issue, compared to if you weren't making any revenue regardless if you weren't streaming in the first place? Go to the fucking bathroom and take a "revenue hit" that you suspect would happen.... who cares....
Streaming itself is not an issue. But why would stream be mandatory for people who pays to get better, when streaming have not shown to actually help people getting better? It people want stream, then they can stream, if people practice better not streaming, it should be their choice since they paid to stay there to get better.
On September 13 2012 09:30 courtpanda wrote: so uhh, which way are our pitchforks pointed at now?
its always the organization that is responsible for any problem that occurs, reason for this is that the organization set it up in the first place so its really up to them to fix it.
I don't agree on that Ministry Of Win are evil people that tries to scam people, they are just fucking stupid. Why the hell did the take money from a player and took him over to the house before they signed the actual contract? The contract sounds like something someone with no real experience with this would make, its bullshit. Why exactly did they want proof of the attorney? Just denying him a third party to check the contract is fucking retarded as well. If I would sign a contract and they refused to let me get a second opinion on it from another person, lawyer or not, I would never sign that shit. And most importantly, Ministry Of Win should had realized THEY FUCKED UP and just returned him the money, instead they waited until he threatened to tell everyone which they then went "okay here is your money".
Ministry Of Win fucked this up, plain and simple.
This is it really. No scams, no Evil business man, just stupid people (MoW) and naive kid (Fuzer).
Hope Fuzer gets his 600euros back and MoW learn from this and improve, to produce good Sc2 players.
First of all i really don't like the hate to karmy, he put out some valid thoughts and that is it basically. Then for the statements, they should be in the OP so everyone can actually read them from Snute especially.
I do not agree on a few things in this thread however:
The Bosses' statement. It just is nothing adressing anything. Just some lines of words without anything inside.
pallad and those <100 Post guys ranting against Fuzer/anyone saying anything against MoW in a completely unmannered way, making smurfing yet again a serious problem. Why can't we have a discussion which is vital to get stuff sorted out and just flame each other like crap because some people try to destroy it with unmannered style?
On September 13 2012 09:48 Awesomeness wrote: Anybody wanna make a poll if snute was payed by MoW to do damage control? or desrow? or titan? or ret?
This community fucking retarded sometimes.
Don't forget Destiny. He was obviously the first on the defense payroll... (even though none of them are posting anything defensive, just clarifying misinformation)
Hey, if anybody knows the best way to get out of a contract early it's Destiny. He's made a career out of it.
EPT
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