On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 02:57 Godwrath wrote:
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz
And now it just depends on whoever can get their ultimate blob of death out faster. I remember when the late-game was sometime past 20 minutes, now its around 13-14 minutes. Practically every matchup except for the mirrors is NR10.
Its only the Zerg mu's these days. TvP still has working aggresive openings that aren't cheese . ( well they only work on non-retarded maps really well but they exist and work )
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz
Over with just 10 drones slaughtered? I remember when people expect Losira to start by losing a hatch first and still brought great games. Why would it be that sustaining early damage means no entertaining games?
On September 01 2012 01:14 TheDwf wrote: So this is how Blizzard decides to balance or not the game? By watching Mvp crushing inferior Zergs then concluding TvZ is OK? How amateurish.
I like to think they wouldn't enjoy the community backlash from buffing the raven after MVP convinced the majority of SC2 watchers that Raven can wtfpwn zerg Blrd/infestor in seconds.
I mean, they patch towards the community's whims, right?
I doubt they have anyone on staff that could hit consistent GM on any server... And all of the people who have some semblance of skill were relegated to play testing HOTS.
On September 01 2012 01:14 TheDwf wrote: So this is how Blizzard decides to balance or not the game? By watching Mvp crushing inferior Zergs then concluding TvZ is OK? How amateurish.
I like to think they wouldn't enjoy the community backlash from buffing the raven after MVP convinced the majority of SC2 watchers that Raven can wtfpwn zerg Blrd/infestor in seconds.
I mean, they patch towards the community's whims, right?
I doubt they have anyone on staff that could hit consistent GM on any server... And all of the people who have some semblance of skill were relegated to play testing HOTS.
On 10 gasses. Doesn't that ring any bell goddammit ?
On September 02 2012 02:40 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: this is real high level play (SPL), this game is typical for TvZ in SPL, the late terran macro is just not beatable, in the midgame zerg has no real 'game ending' unit against a turtling terran ..
believe it or not .. terran probably is still OP (at top level only)
If thats what high level play developed into i'm happy i basically stopped watching SC2 because that game is fucking boring.
Btw I love the a-moving Infestors into death....
It didn't develop into that, but KeSPA players play like that, and that is why I can't wait for few more months so they start to own everybody. Btw, GSL players still play a lot more passive game than what we are seeing here.
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 02:57 Godwrath wrote:
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz
But making it completely pointless to open anything but macro and creating 10+ minute no rush games ( or proxy ) everytime was NOT the right way to patch.
agree. Well from a Zerg POV the situation has improved, because with the stronger defense (roach buff, queens, diverse nerfs of tech timings of T and P), zerg can do some earlier timings now and be somewhat agressive. WIthout the patches, Zerg play was doomed to defensive macroing while being harrassed. It was not fun. However the current situation is too macro-centric. I think mostly because the units have been adapted AND the maps have been adjusted, so in the result the shift from 'all-in-centric' to 'macro-centric' has been overdone.
On September 02 2012 02:40 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: this is real high level play (SPL), this game is typical for TvZ in SPL, the late terran macro is just not beatable, in the midgame zerg has no real 'game ending' unit against a turtling terran ..
believe it or not .. terran probably is still OP (at top level only) , 33 marines and mules counter everything with pro micro
Okay, I've had enough of your biased, ignorant posts. How does that game in any way show that it was "unbeatable terran lategame turtle macro" that was the reason why fantasy won? All I saw was that with superior multitasking, harassment and micro fantasy was able to dominate jaedong, who essentially played passive unless he decided to throw away a group of zerglings and banelings every minute without even doing any damage with them, and then finally engaging OFF CREEP to lose his entire army. Fantasy was the better player EVERY SINGLE MOMENT OF THAT GAME yet no, it's "unbeatable terran macro". It's those OP marines. You are so ignorant it baffles me why you think you understand so much.
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain.
Could you please stop with this fallacy? Only Zergs playing terrible would lose to Hellions running in to kill drones. Good building placement, a Spine and some Zerglings at the top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from entering main easily fended off any commitment from the Terran player. At the Terran Help me thread, people would frequently ask if trying to trade those early Hellions for drones was a good idea, and invariably we would reply: no, this relies on the Zerg player being bad, you will lose map control and Zerg will be able to get his third and start creep spread, just keep your Hellions at front until the Zerg player challenges them. So please stop with this “Zergs had no answer to Hellions raids” theme, it's really infuriating to read again and again the same untruth.
On September 01 2012 01:13 DT.Damage wrote: rofl.....thanks taeja thx mvp for being the best players...youre the reasons we get nerfed!
you dont need that to succeed at tvz, there is SO many playstyles viable in that matchup. Only if you consider playing at a top top level it will be an issue.
On September 02 2012 02:40 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: this is real high level play (SPL), this game is typical for TvZ in SPL, the late terran macro is just not beatable, in the midgame zerg has no real 'game ending' unit against a turtling terran ..
believe it or not .. terran probably is still OP (at top level only)
If thats what high level play developed into i'm happy i basically stopped watching SC2 because that game is fucking boring.
Btw I love the a-moving Infestors into death....
It didn't develop into that, but KeSPA players play like that, and that is why I can't wait for few more months so they start to own everybody. Btw, GSL players still play a lot more passive game than what we are seeing here.
Well then enjoy your boring no rush games without me and a good amount of other viewer especially the ones that enjoy aggresive play. I'm a Wc3 guy i hate these type of games and dispise playstyle like this. If you force me to play/watch that everytime god damn time i'll stop playing and watching.
On September 01 2012 01:14 TheDwf wrote: So this is how Blizzard decides to balance or not the game? By watching Mvp crushing inferior Zergs then concluding TvZ is OK? How amateurish.
.... I mean, they patch towards the community's whims, right? ...
not exactly. they've done patching because of excessive QQ before I think, but I'm quite sure the queen buff was purely because Blizz wanted to see longer games. Its even implied in some interviews - ''we're happy with the patch'', ''its doing exactly what we wanted'', ''everything is peachy'', etc etc
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 02:57 Godwrath wrote:
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain.
Could you please stop with this fallacy? Only Zergs playing terrible would lose to Hellions running in to kill drones. Good building placement, a Spine and some Zerglings at the top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from entering main easily fended off any commitment from the Terran player. At the Terran Help me thread, people would frequently ask if trying to trade those early Hellions for drones was a good idea, and invariably we would reply: no, this relies on the Zerg player being bad, you will lose map control and Zerg will be able to get his third and start creep spread, just keep your Hellions at front until the Zerg player challenges them. So please stop with this “Zergs had no answer to Hellions raids” theme, it's really infuriating to read again and again the same untruth.
Actually, Zergs have always had the answer to hellions: Roaches, and spines. But no, Zergs complained that they were forced to stop drone production to make defensive units. I mean, isn't that the point of a build like reactored hellions? Force at least some defensive units out of zerg?
Has foreigner Terran expectations become so low to the community that qualifying for the playoff in a tourney is like making it to the finals? Throwing around MVP and Kas like they raped the tourney. I have nothing against Kas, I like all Terran users who take on the challenge. Though losing in the first round in the playoffs shouldn't be thrown around like he placed top 2. Yeah he did smash Nestea's head in but he's smashed in Zenio's as well. This is sc2 not bw, let's not go overboard.
On September 02 2012 03:28 Instigata wrote: Has foreigner Terran expectations become so low to the community that qualifying for the playoff in a tourney is like making it to the finals? Throwing around MVP and Kas like they raped the tourney. I have nothing against Kas, I like all Terran users who take on the challenge. Though losing in the first round in the playoffs shouldn't be thrown around like he placed top 2. Yeah he did smash Nestea's head in but he's smashed in Zenio's as well. This is sc2 not bw, let's not go overboard.
Especially since i barely see Nestea in the Top15 of Zergs these days if at all. When was the last time Nestea looked like a competent top Zerg ? I honestly can't remember it.
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote:
On September 02 2012 02:57 Godwrath wrote:
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive?
Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that?
only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain.
Could you please stop with this fallacy? Only Zergs playing terrible would lose to Hellions running in to kill drones. Good building placement, a Spine and some Zerglings at the top of the ramp to prevent Hellions from entering main easily fended off any commitment from the Terran player. At the Terran Help me thread, people would frequently ask if trying to trade those early Hellions for drones was a good idea, and invariably we would reply: no, this relies on the Zerg player being bad, you will lose map control and Zerg will be able to get his third and start creep spread, just keep your Hellions at front until the Zerg player challenges them. So please stop with this “Zergs had no answer to Hellions raids” theme, it's really infuriating to read again and again the same untruth.
Actually, Zergs have always had the answer to hellions: Roaches, and spines. But no, Zergs complained that they were forced to stop drone production to make defensive units. I mean, isn't that the point of a build like reactored hellions? Force at least some defensive units out of zerg?
Yeah, it's really mind-boggling. I remember Nerchio playing defensive Roaches to get an earlier third for months, blade5555 had made a guide about this kind of play, but no, better give a race with such an exponential rate of economic growth a way to deny any non heavily committed pressure by using a minerals-only larva-free unit... Where was the “let players sort out the counters” policy back then, I wonder?
I'm finding some really surprisingly ignorant comments in here from TL users. I haven't been on this site in a while but I was expecting something much more positive.
The good thing is that we know Blizzard is looking at the balance of the game logically. It makes a lot more sense to allow the meta-game play itself out to it's potential before making balance patches. Zergs were underpowered for a very long time before the infestor buff, and as we all saw, that took it much too far. The same thing can be said for the Queen buff, which is the cause of this in the first place.
Let Blizzard learn their lessons. If they hadn't allowed SC:BWs final balance patch to play itself out, and had instead jumped at balance immediately, BW would not be the game that it is. The perfect balance of a game is a marathon, not a sprint. If we indeed want to create a perfectly balanced game, then we must deal with imbalance. There has been times throughout SC:BW where races went months without any serious wins. It takes players like SaviOr to come and change things.
Maybe the Korean Terrans are on to something with the Raven.
On September 02 2012 03:41 zakmaa wrote: The good thing is that we know Blizzard is looking at the balance of the game logically. It makes a lot more sense to allow the meta-game play itself out to it's potential before making balance patches. Zergs were underpowered for a very long time before the infestor buff, and as we all saw, that took it much too far. The same thing can be said for the Queen buff, which is the cause of this in the first place.
What makes you say that Zerg was “underpowered” just before the Queen buff?
On September 02 2012 03:41 zakmaa wrote: I'm finding some really surprisingly ignorant comments in here from TL users. I haven't been on this site in a while but I was expecting something much more positive.
The good thing is that we know Blizzard is looking at the balance of the game logically. It makes a lot more sense to allow the meta-game play itself out to it's potential before making balance patches. Zergs were underpowered for a very long time before the infestor buff, and as we all saw, that took it much too far. The same thing can be said for the Queen buff, which is the cause of this in the first place.
Let Blizzard learn their lessons. If they hadn't allowed SC:BWs final balance patch to play itself out, and had instead jumped at balance immediately, BW would not be the game that it is. The perfect balance of a game is a marathon, not a sprint. If we indeed want to create a perfectly balanced game, then we must deal with imbalance. There has been times throughout SC:BW where races went months without any serious wins. It takes players like SaviOr to come and change things.
Maybe the Korean Terrans are on to something with the Raven.
If they only waited with other changes for this long . We saw a build at one tournament dominate and immidiatly its gets nerfed to the ground ( and units become useless as a result ) and now suddenly they stop because of Terran only kinda get owned and not as hard as before anymore and at times even win again ?
Hell even if its balanced i hate how they balance the game and the direction they push it into. They push towards turtle and snooze fests with a-moving armies.
EPT
