EPTThe game seems pretty balanced from looking at the numbers. Terran requires a higher mechanical level for army control. I'd love for the other races to have more potential in their army as well.
Situation Report: August 31, 2012 by David Kim - Page 33
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wcr.4fun
Belgium686 Posts
The game seems pretty balanced from looking at the numbers. Terran requires a higher mechanical level for army control. I'd love for the other races to have more potential in their army as well. | ||
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Gladiator6
Sweden7024 Posts
On September 01 2012 22:10 cronaldo5909 wrote: I bet if DK plays a game with Terran he'll say "OMFG HOW DID I LOSE TO THAT ZERG ARMY...OP ZERGG" I wonder if he even plays the game, or all he does is observe the pros play. I know at some point in WoL, when his account was public he was in NA GM as random. It perhaps doesn't say that much but I think he knows a lot more than people give him credit for. I'm sure he's much better at the game than 99% of all balance whiners at least. | ||
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puissance
97 Posts
What I dont understand is, why so many think that this is a boring matchup? Terran can go bio into air on very large maps, standard bio-mech or pure mech. Zerg can go Muta-Bling, Roach Ling Investor, and later on Ultra or Brood. Imo it is the most diverse matchup and far more interesting than say TvP, where T is stuck with pure bio. | ||
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ultratorr
Canada332 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:12 Gladiator333 wrote: I know at some point in WoL, when his account was public he was in NA GM as random. It perhaps doesn't say that much but I think he knows a lot more than people give him credit for. I'm sure he's much better at the game than 99% of all balance whiners at least. What's his level now? Still GM? | ||
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Jermstuddog
United States2231 Posts
On September 02 2012 01:21 s3rp wrote: I don't care what needs to be buffed to make it possible but Broodlord/Infestor needs to be nerfed to the ground its such a boring and stupidly strong combination . It makes games with Zergs involved uninteresting once reached because its so hard to engage . I always facepalm when I see complaints about BL infestor. 1) BL is one of the slowest functional combat units in the game. There is basically no way for Zerg to move any BL-based army around quickly. 2) BL infestor is one of the most costly unit comps in the entire game. The cheap unit here, infestors cost 150 gas a pop and are completely energy based. 3) BL infestor is basically the only "offensive" Zerg comp. The BL is the only functional Zerg unit with more than 4 range. Other than their 9 range, BL is a fairly mediocre unit in general. When you're complaining about BL, you're complaining about Zerg having any unit with more than 4 range. Sounds pretty unfair to me. 4) BL infestor takes forever to get to. The earliest I have ever made BL infestor in a real game is around the 17 minute mark. That means you have 17 minutes to beat up on Zerg where his best combat unit has 4 range before this "OP" composition comes out. Often much longer, well past the 20 or even 25 minute mark. Really what you're saying is that Zerg tech should stop at T2. Zerg having to wait until the 20 minute mark to attack into a fortified position isn't good enough. Zerg should NEVER be able to attack into a fortified position. ... Think I'm done... | ||
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Harbinger631
United States376 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I always facepalm when I see complaints about BL infestor. 1) BL is one of the slowest functional combat units in the game. There is basically no way for Zerg to move any BL-based army around quickly. 2) BL infestor is one of the most costly unit comps in the entire game. The cheap unit here, infestors cost 150 gas a pop and are completely energy based. 3) BL infestor is basically the only "offensive" Zerg comp. The BL is the only functional Zerg unit with more than 4 range. Other than their 9 range, BL is a fairly mediocre unit in general. When you're complaining about BL, you're complaining about Zerg having any unit with more than 4 range. Sounds pretty unfair to me. 4) BL infestor takes forever to get to. The earliest I have ever made BL infestor in a real game is around the 17 minute mark. That means you have 17 minutes to beat up on Zerg where his best combat unit has 4 range before this "OP" composition comes out. Often much longer, well past the 20 or even 25 minute mark. Really what you're saying is that Zerg tech should stop at T2. Zerg having to wait until the 20 minute mark to attack into a fortified position isn't good enough. Zerg should NEVER be able to attack into a fortified position. ... Think I'm done... The problem is that when the game first launched, zerg had by far the worst defense of the 3 races. The queen only had 3 range, maps were smaller, fungal didn't do massive damage, and the zerg could be walled in if he didn't defend his ramp. That meant that the zerg had to commit to both tech and units early in order to just stay alive. Now, however, with the loooong rush distance, better OL scouting, queen range, infestor dps, and neutral depots, zerg can dronedronedrone and be very, very safe. So it doesn't really matter that broodlords are expensive because of the early economic snowballing. It doesn't matter that broodlord infestor is slow, because you have the bank to set up spine forests. If you go back to when the game first launched, broodlord infestor wouldn't be anywhere near this mainstream. It's the community's cries for longer macro games that got us to where it's standard for 10 min going by without anything happening, because attacking is so dangerous. | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I always facepalm when I see complaints about BL infestor. 1) BL is one of the slowest functional combat units in the game. There is basically no way for Zerg to move any BL-based army around quickly. 2) BL infestor is one of the most costly unit comps in the entire game. The cheap unit here, infestors cost 150 gas a pop and are completely energy based. 3) BL infestor is basically the only "offensive" Zerg comp. The BL is the only functional Zerg unit with more than 4 range. Other than their 9 range, BL is a fairly mediocre unit in general. When you're complaining about BL, you're complaining about Zerg having any unit with more than 4 range. Sounds pretty unfair to me. 4) BL infestor takes forever to get to. The earliest I have ever made BL infestor in a real game is around the 17 minute mark. That means you have 17 minutes to beat up on Zerg where his best combat unit has 4 range before this "OP" composition comes out. Often much longer, well past the 20 or even 25 minute mark. Really what you're saying is that Zerg tech should stop at T2. Zerg having to wait until the 20 minute mark to attack into a fortified position isn't good enough. Zerg should NEVER be able to attack into a fortified position. ... Think I'm done... I don't care about that it makes games uninteresting to play and watch . If the whole freaking game needs to be revamped to change that so be it because the current state of the game is stupid and boring. | ||
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Birdfood
United States33 Posts
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ultratorr
Canada332 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I always facepalm when I see complaints about BL infestor. 1) BL is one of the slowest functional combat units in the game. There is basically no way for Zerg to move any BL-based army around quickly. 2) BL infestor is one of the most costly unit comps in the entire game. The cheap unit here, infestors cost 150 gas a pop and are completely energy based. 3) BL infestor is basically the only "offensive" Zerg comp. The BL is the only functional Zerg unit with more than 4 range. Other than their 9 range, BL is a fairly mediocre unit in general. When you're complaining about BL, you're complaining about Zerg having any unit with more than 4 range. Sounds pretty unfair to me. 4) BL infestor takes forever to get to. The earliest I have ever made BL infestor in a real game is around the 17 minute mark. That means you have 17 minutes to beat up on Zerg where his best combat unit has 4 range before this "OP" composition comes out. Often much longer, well past the 20 or even 25 minute mark. Really what you're saying is that Zerg tech should stop at T2. Zerg having to wait until the 20 minute mark to attack into a fortified position isn't good enough. Zerg should NEVER be able to attack into a fortified position. ... Think I'm done... I would not complaining about Zerg having a good composition; that's just dumb. I complain about the design of it. The composition does not benefit much from skill of usage and negates skill from the opponent. This could be said for units/compositions from other races too. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
believe it or not .. terran probably is still OP (at top level only) , 33 marines and mules counter everything with pro micro | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:40 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: this is real high level play (SPL), this game is typical for TvZ in SPL, the late terran macro is just not beatable, in the midgame zerg has no real 'game ending' unit against a turtling terran .. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=szxLKk-IZtg&feature=g-u-u believe it or not .. terran probably is still OP (at top level only) If thats what high level play developed into i'm happy i basically stopped watching SC2 because that game is fucking boring. Btw I love the a-moving Infestors into death.... | ||
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SKYFISH_
Bulgaria990 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:22 Jermstuddog wrote: I always facepalm when I see complaints about BL infestor. 1) BL is one of the slowest functional combat units in the game. There is basically no way for Zerg to move any BL-based army around quickly. 2) BL infestor is one of the most costly unit comps in the entire game. The cheap unit here, infestors cost 150 gas a pop and are completely energy based. 3) BL infestor is basically the only "offensive" Zerg comp. The BL is the only functional Zerg unit with more than 4 range. Other than their 9 range, BL is a fairly mediocre unit in general. When you're complaining about BL, you're complaining about Zerg having any unit with more than 4 range. Sounds pretty unfair to me. 4) BL infestor takes forever to get to. The earliest I have ever made BL infestor in a real game is around the 17 minute mark. That means you have 17 minutes to beat up on Zerg where his best combat unit has 4 range before this "OP" composition comes out. Often much longer, well past the 20 or even 25 minute mark. Really what you're saying is that Zerg tech should stop at T2. Zerg having to wait until the 20 minute mark to attack into a fortified position isn't good enough. Zerg should NEVER be able to attack into a fortified position. ... Think I'm done... this was probably the most biased post i've read on TL, honestly 1/Thank god the other part of the BL/Infestor composition are a shit ton of Zerglings then, the fastest unit in the game 2/Luckily, the Zerg can easily saturate 3 bases in the current metagame.Furthermore, if you bother to pay attention to pro matches on big macro maps you'll notice that for the most of the time the Zerg is banking insane amounts of money whereas the Terran is starved because he has to constantly invest in production buildings. 3/This doesnt make any sense at all.Its as if the other Zerg units are not suited for offence.... 4/I've seen some Zergs successfully rush to Hive tech and get ultras around the 15 minute mark, its doable. The timing itself is still insignificant if you ask me, it really doesnt matter when exactly the Zerg gets his ultimate blob of units, its not like the Terran has any unit to look forward to in the lategame.... And just for the record, the BL is not what its wrecking in the lategame, its the Infestor, especially in ZvT. I've said it before - Terran doesnt need a buff, the Infestor needs a nerf instead | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:45 s3rp wrote: If thats what high level play developed into i'm happy i basically stopped watching SC2 because that game is fucking boring. agree, the map is too large, so any early harrass is pointless. i think the "terrible damage" concept is flawed. If the maps are small, the game is decided too quickly by early harrass. If they are too large, harrass does not pay off and both players turtle to max. We need cheap microable harrass units, which require not lots of commitment from the agressore and on the other hand don't kill a whole eco line within a second. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On September 01 2012 09:53 SmokeMonster wrote: Remember that time when every Terran in the world thought the only way to play Terran was by being cheesy and aggressive? Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that? | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:48 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: agree, the map is too large, so any early harrass is pointless. i think the "terrible damage" concept is flawed. If the maps are small, the game is decided too quickly by early harrass. If they are too large, harrass does not pay off and both players turtle to max. We need cheap microable harrass units, which require not lots of commitment from the agressore and on the other hand don't kill a whole eco line within a second. Agreed thatswhy i hate the Blizzards patch policy , they went from way too fast decided quick games directly to the opposite. Macro games that basically need to happen because any different opening is basically non-existent ( because your so behind ) are boring . There need to be tech/harass openings possible for every race without making you beeing all-in. Especially in the Zerg matchups because they kinda exist in the other matchups. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:57 Godwrath wrote: Remember that time when TvZ was actually fun to watch because of that? only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz  | ||
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s3rp
Germany3192 Posts
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz But making it completely pointless to open anything but macro and creating 10+ minute no rush games ( or proxy ) everytime was NOT the right way to patch. | ||
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Schnullerbacke13
Germany1199 Posts
On September 02 2012 02:09 wcr.4fun wrote: All the zerg matchup's are incredibly boring. I even like zvz the most and that says something... Broodlord infestor is boring to play and boring to watch. The game seems pretty balanced from looking at the numbers. Terran requires a higher mechanical level for army control. I'd love for the other races to have more potential in their army as well. well, BW was so mechanically demanding, that low level play was 90% decided through APM and decision speed of players, regardless of balance/units/race. Balance came into play at top level, with 200+ APM. This way lower level play was not affected by high level balance. this partially holds true for sc2, but to a lesser extent. Ther terran whining imho is an effect of being nerfed from super-OP to balanced/slightly UP in low level play. | ||
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Whatson
United States5356 Posts
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz And now it just depends on whoever can get their ultimate blob of death out faster. I remember when the late-game was sometime past 20 minutes, now its around 13-14 minutes. Practically every matchup except for the mirrors is NR10. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10126 Posts
On September 02 2012 03:03 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: only if you have poor game understanding. basically most games where decided early on (10 drones slaughtered), the players still played it out trying to entertain. Think of idra's GG timing being pretty realistic, not catz facepalm. Did you watch for example MVP vs Nestea on metro ? Fantasy vs Jaedong ? Those games were boring as shit, not because you don't understand it, but because you understand how fucking boring it is for a viewer. Terrans atleast spice it up with drops on lategame. Edit - Btw, noone here is argueing about how imbalanced terran was with the early map pool and stuff like 5-rax reapers vs 2range roaches. Don't go that further back in time to find awesome games with harass ^^ | ||
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