On September 01 2012 23:43 ZeBigMarn wrote: Looking at the groups for the next GSL season there are 13T, 10P and 9Z so the balance talk saying T is underpowered is ridiculous.
GSL or WCS Korea race distribution do not prove anything about balance or imbalance but whatever.
On September 01 2012 23:44 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: hum .. when watching SPL where the BW pros compete in SC2 now, it seems like the former zerg bonjwas have a significantly lower win-rate in SC2 compared to BW. So it might be another T nerf or Zerg buff incoming (depends on HOTS release date) .. My prediction: Terran still OP, mules will cost supply ;-)
Complaining about MULEs when your race can build 15 workers at once, really? But then again what should we expect from Mr. “Just-build-macro-OCs” ...
You don't build extra rax?
Macro hatches are required for production. Maybe if OCs also produced all your units you'd build more of them too?
Because, you know, macro OCs are totally never done ever. Who wants to replace all their workers on minerals with mules that cost 0 supply and mine far more in the lategame while playing mech anyway?
On September 01 2012 22:43 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: most lower level terran fail to understand that terran has best lategame macro (OC's). Newer pro plays indicate, the zerg paradigm to 'overpower' the terran has its limits due to the supply cap. expect a metagame shift to "don't let the terran macro undisturbed". nice example: jaedong vs fantasy in SPL
Terran has the worst unit macro. Compare baracks to to warp in and larva injected hatcherys.
I'd call this 'production'. terran has the most expensive and inflexible production, that's true. therfore they have a great allround unit: the marine.
The overlord speed increase made complete sense, considering the maps increased in size and it was hard to distinguish a normal helion expand from a 2fact helion all in.
Before the queen buff 8 helions could force a lot of roaches, leaving zerg on 2 bases for a long time. During this period terran could get a third CC up. But the terran could also be researching stim and making marines from two reactored barracks at the same time, going for a very strong all in. It was very hard for zergs to deal with this and DRG was doing great but many others were not. I think the combination of queen range and overlord speed increase was a bit too much though.
What I don't like about TvZ right now is the overall flow of the game. Both players take 3 bases without much going on, they tech up without much going on. There is barely a mid game where decisions are made, where players exchange units and gain or lose ground. Well sometimes players kill some creep tumors. How exciting!. Mid game starts at hive tech. In BW, we had zerglings vs marines. Once medics were added terran could move out on the map. Then mutas came and drove the marines back ( or the marines forced the mutas to stay at home while terran got more defences up ). There was action all over the map during the midgame while every base ( GAS!) that was taken meant new units got into play. Until eventually we could see Science vessel, tank, vulture, goliath versus ultra, defiler, crackling, queen.
Currently we see 3 bases taken within twelve minutes, full tech at 17 minutes ( except hive tech upgrades/armory upgrades ). And that's just dull.
Please keep both terrand and zerg on their toes during the early game so they can't play as greedily as they are playing now. The game has no flow to it. It is hyperexponential growth into lategame.
BTW: Fungal growth stuns units for a millisecond and does damage for infestors who are burrowed and it snares units if it's cast by a burrowed infestor. No smart cast for this one, people have to select their infestors manually.
On September 01 2012 23:43 ZeBigMarn wrote: Looking at the groups for the next GSL season there are 13T, 10P and 9Z so the balance talk saying T is underpowered is ridiculous.
GSL or WCS Korea race distribution do not prove anything about balance or imbalance but whatever.
On September 01 2012 23:44 Schnullerbacke13 wrote: hum .. when watching SPL where the BW pros compete in SC2 now, it seems like the former zerg bonjwas have a significantly lower win-rate in SC2 compared to BW. So it might be another T nerf or Zerg buff incoming (depends on HOTS release date) .. My prediction: Terran still OP, mules will cost supply ;-)
Complaining about MULEs when your race can build 15 workers at once, really? But then again what should we expect from Mr. “Just-build-macro-OCs” ...
I am not a 'Terran hater' or something, and i enjoy ZvT having no complaints. However if you would be able to do the math of mules and watch recent high-level pro play one might get the impression, that 4000 mins income of off mules can counter anything. Anyway .. we'll see, maybe some map changes fix that. Btw: "15 workers at once" do not help regarding the 200 supply cap, going beyong 80, 90 workers for zerg is not an option, so zerg and protoss economy is capped. on the other hand: all this macroing is going overboard currently (15 minute macro no action games are boring to watch), so i appreciate if any race is kind of forced to attack at a point in time ;-)
On September 02 2012 00:25 Tommie wrote: The overlord speed increase made complete sense, considering the maps increased in size and it was hard to distinguish a normal helion expand from a 2fact helion all in.
Before the queen buff 8 helions could force a lot of roaches, leaving zerg on 2 bases for a long time. During this period terran could get a third CC up. But the terran could also be researching stim and making marines from two reactored barracks at the same time, going for a very strong all in. It was very hard for zergs to deal with this and DRG was doing great but many others were not. I think the combination of queen range and overlord speed increase was a bit too much though.
What I don't like about TvZ right now is the overall flow of the game. Both players take 3 bases without much going on, they tech up without much going on. There is barely a mid game where decisions are made, where players exchange units and gain or lose ground. Well sometimes players kill some creep tumors. How exciting!. Mid game starts at hive tech. In BW, we had zerglings vs marines. Once medics were added terran could move out on the map. Then mutas came and drove the marines back ( or the marines forced the mutas to stay at home while terran got more defences up ). There was action all over the map during the midgame while every base ( GAS!) that was taken meant new units got into play. Until eventually we could see Science vessel, tank, vulture, goliath versus ultra, defiler, crackling, queen.
Currently we see 3 bases taken within twelve minutes, full tech at 17 minutes ( except hive tech upgrades/armory upgrades ). And that's just dull.
Please keep both terrand and zerg on their toes during the early game so they can't play as greedily as they are playing now. The game has no flow to it. It is hyperexponential growth into lategame.
BTW: Fungal growth stuns units for a millisecond and does damage for infestors who are burrowed and it snares units if it's cast by a burrowed infestor. No smart cast for this one, people have to select their infestors manually.
Agree on dullnes of CURRENT metagame, however if played correctly, an undisturbed terran can own Zerg lategame due to mule power. I think we'll see more agressive zerg play pretty soon (some good zergs such as leenock, DRG already got that). I think with the recent changes, the match up is much more even: both races have all-in options, both are forced to macro up (no more zerg=victim, terran=agressor). However the map pool with those huge maps may get adjusted to get more active play (some of the newer 2 player maps already produce nice games, its the huge maps with many bases which lead to overly macro oriented games). The terran QQ is mostly because they have to play pretty different now and the transition needs time and many lost games. From my ladder experience I'd say a lot of terrans have adapted or started to adapt.
I don't care what needs to be buffed to make it possible but Broodlord/Infestor needs to be nerfed to the ground its such a boring and stupidly strong combination . It makes games with Zergs involved uninteresting once reached because its so hard to engage .
On September 01 2012 01:09 Shinespark wrote: Great. Thanks a lot, Mvp, for using a strategy that I'll never have the apm to perform.
... studies conclude: 90% of terrans cannot read!
Honestly, blizzard said from the very beginning, that these changes are about the highest level of play only! If you guys loose in tvz, its just because you suck, l2p!
Really, what an outrage that blizzard is looking only at the highest level of play, when they want to know if the changes they plan to balance the highest level of play are really necessary!
Highest play being MVP destroying players that are clearly inferior to him and Kas winning ONE series against Nestea, in a series that Nestea should have won but literally just threw away (it's by far his WEAKEST match-up anyways).
On September 02 2012 01:28 etofok wrote: Finally Terrans has adapted and TvZ evolved from the best to absolutely uninteresting match-up
Yeah. I don't mind losing some games because of some nerf to my race (even though I don't understand the reasons) but all this stuff leaves the sad feeling that the game became less interesting, more dull.
we’re no longer seeing the same balance shifts that caused us to propose changes in the first place.
I can understand the... "IEM logic" for stopping a raven change, but what sort of shift is it that influenced a decision for change in creep radius in the first place?
The way I see it, having 60-80% of the map covered in creep is still ridiculous and makes every match-up dull and homogeneous. How does increased lategame raven use change this fact that zerg will have almost complete map vision through the midgame?
On September 02 2012 01:28 etofok wrote: Finally Terrans has adapted and TvZ evolved from the best to absolutely uninteresting match-up
Yeah. I don't mind losing some games because of some nerf to my race (even though I don't understand the reasons) but all this stuff leaves the sad feeling that the game became less interesting, more dull.
Yup, fuck you blizzard. All these people on the forums complaining about the Terran whiners. MOST of us are whining because the games is getting more and more stale with each change.
On September 02 2012 01:28 etofok wrote: Finally Terrans has adapted and TvZ evolved from the best to absolutely uninteresting match-up
Yeah. I don't mind losing some games because of some nerf to my race (even though I don't understand the reasons) but all this stuff leaves the sad feeling that the game became less interesting, more dull.
Yup, fuck you blizzard. All these people on the forums complaining about the Terran whiners. MOST of us are whining because the games is getting more and more stale with each change.
Yephey are basically forcing long macro but without realizing macrogames that don't evolve naturally are completely dull and uninteresting.
On September 02 2012 01:28 etofok wrote: Finally Terrans has adapted and TvZ evolved from the best to absolutely uninteresting match-up
Yeah. I don't mind losing some games because of some nerf to my race (even though I don't understand the reasons) but all this stuff leaves the sad feeling that the game became less interesting, more dull.
Yup, fuck you blizzard. All these people on the forums complaining about the Terran whiners. MOST of us are whining because the games is getting more and more stale with each change.
Yep they are basically forcing long macro but without realizing macrogames that don't evolve naturally are completely dull and uninteresting.
On September 01 2012 01:07 ELA wrote: Well, TaeJa and MVP sure did screw that up for the rest of us :D
On September 01 2012 01:09 Shinespark wrote: Great. Thanks a lot, Mvp, for using a strategy that I'll never have the apm to perform.
... studies conclude: 90% of terrans cannot read!
Honestly, blizzard said from the very beginning, that these changes are about the highest level of play only! If you guys loose in tvz, its just because you suck, l2p!
Really, what an outrage that blizzard is looking only at the highest level of play, when they want to know if the changes they plan to balance the highest level of play are really necessary!
Indeed, they are looking at the highest level of play! TvZ at the highest level of play was perfectly balanced. Then blizzard BUFFED THE QUEEN. Hi.
i like how terrans say it was perfectly balanced before the patch.
as you can see TvZ was ALWAYS T favoured on the highest level and NEVER balanced in 50/50 balanced. so stop telling it was balanced and blizzard messed up. its the other way around! NOW it is about 50/50!
Did you even look at the charts? Z>T (for the first time?) two months before the queen patch. Then the queenpatch destroyed the Terran metagame for one month. Then the matchup became perfectly balanced two months ago (on Korean prolevel).
The queen patch was probably unnecessary to begin with, the outcome of the queen patch however just shows how much more blizzard understands of balancing this game than anyone else.
yes there was one month zerg favoured and next month T favoured again. just saying terrans should stop complaining about the queen patch which was obviously fine (2 months 50/50) since it made zvt more interesting (no more "build 4 helions and camp them in front of zerg base" every game) and made zvz a lot more skillbased instead of partly luckbased ling baneling wars.
blizzard did a good job there like you said.
It is possible that TvZ is balanced right now, even though i do disagree with that, but saying that it makde TvZ more interesting is flat out wrong. Right now TvZ is a very stale match-up. Most of the time it is a snooze fest until both players are maxed. At this point there is two possible out comes of the game. Either the Zerg will clump up their Brood Lords and leave within a second after they are been killed by Seeker Missiles. Sometimes the Zerg will know how to split their Brood Lords and it is game over for Terran.
I found it funny in that one video, im not sure which one it was, i think it was a video from IEM. they asked a lot of questions and got very different answers except for one.
if you could remove one unit which one would it be. EVERYONE (except Nestea) answered Infestors..
i'm a masters random player terran is my strongest race (not because of chance, i practice terran the most) the only way for terran to stay even with zerg right now in my opinion: 1. macro oc's.. not just IMMVP status,, but thorzain when he's streaming status. like a lot of OC's 2. be super aggressive before 10 minutes, but dont lose any units or you die to a counter all in (because youre also taking a quick 3rd, hopefully) 3. 2/2 timing push, you have to kill a base or two at least. its good if you can drop while you do this
i dont even think ravens are good really, while they are strong, think about that it is 200 gas, and that can be 1 and 1/2 siege tanks or two medivacs which is better in the "early game." when it gets to the really late game, then yes ravens i think are a lot better, but in the late game terran also shouldn't attack (mining out) and should just try to split map/make a good composition
i dont agree with not making the raven change. it's a fun, underused unit that a korean terran showed potential with vs multiple opponents he outclassed. mvp isnt going to win the game becuase of ravens.. thats just the type of unit they are. you cant smash them out and 1 base with them, you have to play a very strong macro game to get the infrastructure for them, and then switch at the correcttime. we should reward power-macro plays like that. i hate to make the fanboys angry as well, but nestea is a garbage recently and it esems all that he can do is ridiculously committal bane busts and 20 broodlord amove pushes (just like vs mvp on shakuras, mvp on metroplolis) with no micro whatsoever
all the zergs said "omg ghost imba" while nestea amoved 20 broods into 10 ghosts and a few vikings, cloaked. destiny even said something about him thinking nestea threw the match. now it's nestea amoves into 10 ravens with full energy and same thing happens. come on. can anyone just look at the game and realize "wow he's been getting dropped literally every 30 seconds for 30 minutes now, he finally got a few broods, he's just going to try and end it" and that it has nothing to do with imba, nestea was just dying slowly and had to go for it with what he could field..
EPT
