|
On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 07:27 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
[quote]
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that " you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners. And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money.. If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating.
I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional.
However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2. GOM has contributed a ton, especially with the GOM house and english casting. Kespa and GOM do need to resolve their disputes and reach terms of agreement. As far as effort goes GOM takes the cake but as far as professionalism in league management its all Kespa.
|
On August 24 2012 09:07 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:58 oBlade wrote:On August 24 2012 08:47 mrtomjones wrote:
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. They have talent that they've incentivized to play in their leagues. No, the organization that runs the leagues isn't technically the organization that represents the teams and players. But that's not relevant. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today. Yes, KeSPA could have allowed them to come in with a studio and some inferior commentators, set up a tournament, and use KeSPA's own professional player base to take ratings away from the 3+ leagues KeSPA was already running. But there wasn't room for such a league. So they decided to skip it. The money is in the sponsors is in the advertising. The international audience isn't relevant to that. No amount of GOM Classics would stop the fact that if you call a game "Starcraft 2" it's going to turn people off of "Starcraft 1." Actually is it VERY relevant since it is the heart of this issue. Kespa is not allowing their players into the GSL and Gom technically has no power to stop their players directly.
It's not relevant to what hunts originally said (what our entire series of quotes came from), which was that they were trying to kill off GOM. You can't withhold players from a tournament that has its own. This is the difference from when GOM Classics failed in BW. Do you follow this yet?
It's true GOM can't stop players from going to the OSL, but why would they want to?
|
Wait...I'm still slightly confused. Is it just this GSL or did they essentially say that kespa players will indefinitely not participate in GSL? i.e. as far as we're concerned kespa players aren't going to be playing in GSL ever until further notice?
|
On August 24 2012 09:12 oBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:07 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:58 oBlade wrote:On August 24 2012 08:47 mrtomjones wrote:
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. They have talent that they've incentivized to play in their leagues. No, the organization that runs the leagues isn't technically the organization that represents the teams and players. But that's not relevant. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today. Yes, KeSPA could have allowed them to come in with a studio and some inferior commentators, set up a tournament, and use KeSPA's own professional player base to take ratings away from the 3+ leagues KeSPA was already running. But there wasn't room for such a league. So they decided to skip it. The money is in the sponsors is in the advertising. The international audience isn't relevant to that. No amount of GOM Classics would stop the fact that if you call a game "Starcraft 2" it's going to turn people off of "Starcraft 1." Actually is it VERY relevant since it is the heart of this issue. Kespa is not allowing their players into the GSL and Gom technically has no power to stop their players directly. It's not relevant to what hunts originally said (what our entire series of quotes came from), which was that they were trying to kill off GOM. You can't withhold players from a tournament that has its own. This is the difference from when GOM Classics failed in BW. Do you follow this yet? It's true GOM can't stop players from going to the OSL, but why would they want to?
I think you are right... but apparently KeSPA think they can, which is why they are pulling this crap. They just gonna create alot shitstorm that is not good for anyone while most likely won't accomplish much, which is what make it even more frustrating.
|
On August 24 2012 09:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating. I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional. However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2.
Every sports league has an "unsportsmanlike" clause somewhere in the rules... either implied or explicit. You're being naive here if you think professional means having every eventuality described with precision in an all-encompassing rule book.
|
On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it.
If professionalism is disqualifying people for typing one too many p's, then fuck that.
|
On August 24 2012 09:12 Aerisky wrote:
Wait...I'm still slightly confused. Is it just this GSL or did they essentially say that kespa players will indefinitely not participate in GSL? i.e. as far as we're concerned kespa players aren't going to be playing in GSL ever until further notice?
It's this GSL, but it's also second GSL they pulled out in a row.
On August 24 2012 08:19 ragz_gt wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:09 starojda wrote:
It is not the last GSL so I would not make so much noise about it... It's the second GSL they pulled out. Which is why original post says: Show nested quote +On August 23 2012 16:43 TheAmazombie wrote:
Today, we have received an official response from KeSPA, stating that their players will, once again, not participate in the GSL Season 4 Code A qualifiers.
They were supposed to enter the last GSL as hinted at Blizz/GOM/KeSPA joint thing, but they pulled out for being not ready. They had a point then so it wasn't a big deal. But they can't use the same excuse for being not ready when GSL players are in the OSL.
Which is why everyone calling BS on them.
|
On August 24 2012 09:12 Aerisky wrote:
Wait...I'm still slightly confused. Is it just this GSL or did they essentially say that kespa players will indefinitely not participate in GSL? i.e. as far as we're concerned kespa players aren't going to be playing in GSL ever until further notice?
This GSL only... for now.
|
On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 07:27 NoobSkills wrote:On August 24 2012 07:18 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions. Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition. As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format. My point was that " you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners. And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money.. If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it.
oh, the shit bw fans get away with on teamliquid...
how is GOM not trying to do same level of profesionalism as kespa? maybe they dont have samsung, air companies and telecoms sponsoring them, but i would say production wise they're doing alright with what they've got. keep on hating tho
|
On August 24 2012 09:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating. I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional. However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2. GOM has contributed a ton, especially with the GOM house and english casting. Kespa and GOM do need to resolve their disputes and reach terms of agreement. As far as effort goes GOM takes the cake but as far as professionalism in league management its all Kespa.
You obviously havn't payed much attention to their league then.. they do have rules in place for lots of things(Pauses, mechanical failures,gg's perhaps too). That was obviously just a hole in their rules. That may have come off more hash then I meant it too. Just trying to point out that they do have similar rules in place for those sorts of things.
|
On August 24 2012 09:16 Fyodor wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating. I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional. However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2. Every sports league has an "unsportsmanlike" clause somewhere in the rules... either implied or explicit. You're being naive here if you think professional means having every eventuality described with precision in an all-encompassing rule book.
You completely missed the point. The unprofessional part "was not" the fact that they did not have the action listed in a rule book but the fact that they banned him as a result of it and then waived his ban. Not banning him and creating a rule after the fact would have been the more professional approach.
|
What KeSPA is doing hurts ESPORTS very much. This has to stop one way or the other.
|
On August 24 2012 09:17 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating. I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional. However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2. GOM has contributed a ton, especially with the GOM house and english casting. Kespa and GOM do need to resolve their disputes and reach terms of agreement. As far as effort goes GOM takes the cake but as far as professionalism in league management its all Kespa. You obviously havn't payed much attention to their league then.. they do have rules in place for lots of things(Pauses, mechanical failures,gg's perhaps too). That was obviously just a hole in their rules.
Which is why I spoke in past tense to begin with.
|
On August 24 2012 09:18 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:16 Fyodor wrote:On August 24 2012 09:10 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:05 mrtomjones wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating. I am not hating at all. I love both Gom and Kespa to be quite honest. I compared Gom to be a D-League because they do not have contracts with predetermined salaries for the players. They "didn't" (I am not sure if they do now) even have rules surrounding their own league. Remember the Naniwa vs Nestea situation? There was no rule stating that Naniwa could not probe rush but they banned him as if there was one and then waived his ban. That sir is extremely amature and unprofessional. However, I slightly agree with you that Kespa might not have been the right thing to grow SC2. Every sports league has an "unsportsmanlike" clause somewhere in the rules... either implied or explicit. You're being naive here if you think professional means having every eventuality described with precision in an all-encompassing rule book. You completely missed the point. The unprofessional part "was not" the fact that they did not have the action listed in a rule book but the fact that they banned him as a result of it and then waived his ban. Not banning him and creating a rule after the fact would have been the more professional approach.
I don't think it was ever a ban. He was allowed to participate in the code A qualifiers that season but chose not to. They took a slightly different approach and decided not to give him the code S seed.. but this has been discucssed to death in the past so... 
|
On August 24 2012 09:16 madsweepslol wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:
Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. If professionalism is disqualifying people for typing one too many p's, then fuck that.
Those rules were amended because everyone realized how stupid they were. Professionalism is having sponsorships from companies like Samsung, Shinhan Bank, KT, and SKT, and using that money to give your players salaries so they can play in the regularly seasoned leagues you broadcast on television. Okay.
|
No Kespa at MLG, no KESPA at GSL. Boy, I am sure Sundance decided to signing up with Kespa in some sort of loosely defined partnership that made him the junior partner to Darth Vader.
|
On August 24 2012 09:22 Sub40APM wrote:
No Kespa at MLG, no KESPA at GSL. Boy, I am sure Sundance decided to signing up with Kespa in some sort of loosely defined partnership that made him the junior partner to Darth Vader.
Or the Darth Vader to Emperor Palpatine. Maybe Sundance will overthrow Kespa with the help of the rebel Gom group after they had their falling out years ago and Goms children had hidden amongst the rebels and uh...
|
On August 24 2012 09:17 snailz wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 07:27 NoobSkills wrote:
[quote]
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
[quote]
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that " you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners. And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money.. If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. oh, the shit bw fans get away with on teamliquid... how is GOM not trying to do same level of profesionalism as kespa? maybe they dont have samsung, air companies and telecoms sponsoring them, but i would say production wise they're doing alright with what they've got. keep on hating tho
Once again, I am not hating. Until Gom can come up with a plan to get their players stable salaries, contracts, and proper team management, I will hold to my analogy. I am not hating, I think their effort and production has been exceptional and has contributed a significant amount of growth and interest to SC2.
|
On August 24 2012 09:24 BlazeFury01 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:17 snailz wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 07:45 Prplppleatr wrote:
[quote]
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. oh, the shit bw fans get away with on teamliquid... how is GOM not trying to do same level of profesionalism as kespa? maybe they dont have samsung, air companies and telecoms sponsoring them, but i would say production wise they're doing alright with what they've got. keep on hating tho Once again, I am not hating. Until Gom can come up with a plan to get their players stable salaries, contracts, and proper team management, I will hold to my analogy. I am not hating, I think their effort and production has been exceptional and has contributed a significant amount of growth and interest to SC2.
Anyone participating in Gom's league gets a salary. Gom does not own the teams. The teams are in charge of getting salaries, food, lodging, and travel. Gom is not Kespa in that regard.
|
On August 24 2012 09:27 mrtomjones wrote:Show nested quote +On August 24 2012 09:24 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 09:17 snailz wrote:On August 24 2012 08:59 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:55 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:54 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:53 ragz_gt wrote:On August 24 2012 08:46 BlazeFury01 wrote:On August 24 2012 08:18 Prplppleatr wrote:On August 24 2012 08:05 BlazeFury01 wrote:
[quote]
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago. You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW. My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic? The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion. Different countries have different rules. Exactly. That apply for your analogy also. Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it. oh, the shit bw fans get away with on teamliquid... how is GOM not trying to do same level of profesionalism as kespa? maybe they dont have samsung, air companies and telecoms sponsoring them, but i would say production wise they're doing alright with what they've got. keep on hating tho Once again, I am not hating. Until Gom can come up with a plan to get their players stable salaries, contracts, and proper team management, I will hold to my analogy. I am not hating, I think their effort and production has been exceptional and has contributed a significant amount of growth and interest to SC2. Anyone participating in Gom's league gets a salary. Gom does not own the teams. The teams are in charge of getting salaries, food, lodging, and travel. Gom is not Kespa in that regard.
And that is what my definition of professionalism is which is why I made the analogy to begin with.
Do you have visual evidence of the bolded quote?
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
