On August 24 2012 08:12 hunts wrote: But kespa hasn't done anything for SC2, they transitioned over to it in hopes of making money. Kespa did not make SC2 popular, and they certainly aren't trying to progress SC2 it seems, as they are once again trying to kill off competition, which is the opposite of progress. Blizzard owes kespa nothing, and honestly I hope they force kespa to cooperate with gom or shut kespa down.
GOM basically owes itself to the previous success of the SC franchise in Korea, which is in KeSPA's name.
I'm pretty sure they're not trying to "kill off" GOM, which is beyond KeSPA's abilities. They just have to work out the schedules. And anyway, businesses always compete, big deal.
They did it in BW
GOM didn't have their own players in BW.
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
i fail to see if even half of what was proposed was real, why Kespa wouldn't send its players out to GSL. Code S/UnD/Code A are all highly competitive with code S currently being the most prestigious and most wanted position out there. I hope blizzard can do something to illuminate kespa's eyes about playing nicely. As is i'm sure this move is to restrict players from too much global exposure so they don't just up and leave. or something like that.
i would guess the most likely scenario is that Kespa is trying to negotiate something with GOM in which they can reap some of the benefits of the GSL broadcasts, but it has likely failed up to this point.
i assume they will have to make a move soon because it's only a matter of time before the strong SC2 players leave so they are free to participate in GSL.
it's like Kespa is freaking out knowing that the inevitable shift to SC2 that will end up phasing out BW is coming closer than they anticipated, and the last bargaining chip they have in their control is barring their players from playing certain events. it's pretty clear that GOM has locked up a huge part of the market, so i would be freaking out too if i was a big-shot at Kespa.
i feel like the big project they are working on is going to end up being some sort of deal with GOM or the launch of a high-level SC2 tourney. the latter might possibly suck if players' rights to participate in a tournament are constantly being leveraged.
On August 24 2012 08:12 hunts wrote: But kespa hasn't done anything for SC2, they transitioned over to it in hopes of making money. Kespa did not make SC2 popular, and they certainly aren't trying to progress SC2 it seems, as they are once again trying to kill off competition, which is the opposite of progress. Blizzard owes kespa nothing, and honestly I hope they force kespa to cooperate with gom or shut kespa down.
GOM basically owes itself to the previous success of the SC franchise in Korea, which is in KeSPA's name.
I'm pretty sure they're not trying to "kill off" GOM, which is beyond KeSPA's abilities. They just have to work out the schedules. And anyway, businesses always compete, big deal.
They did it in BW
GOM didn't have their own players in BW.
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
Well. They have e-sports federation composed of GSL teams. And kespa didnt like GOM league in the first place because they were getting piece of a pie without working their ass off to get it
On August 24 2012 08:12 hunts wrote: But kespa hasn't done anything for SC2, they transitioned over to it in hopes of making money. Kespa did not make SC2 popular, and they certainly aren't trying to progress SC2 it seems, as they are once again trying to kill off competition, which is the opposite of progress. Blizzard owes kespa nothing, and honestly I hope they force kespa to cooperate with gom or shut kespa down.
GOM basically owes itself to the previous success of the SC franchise in Korea, which is in KeSPA's name.
I'm pretty sure they're not trying to "kill off" GOM, which is beyond KeSPA's abilities. They just have to work out the schedules. And anyway, businesses always compete, big deal.
They did it in BW
GOM didn't have their own players in BW.
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
Well. They have e-sports federation composed of GSL teams. And kespa didnt like GOM league in the first place because they were getting piece of a pie without working their ass off to get it
I agree with the first part. Federation WILL back Gom. I disagree with the second part though. They did do a fair share of work for SC2.
On August 24 2012 08:45 Dodgin wrote: Blizzard is not going to do anything, they will probably release a statement saying " we are sorry this had to happen " and maybe they will announce that Kespa has agreed to play in GSL season 5 if we're lucky.
If they announce definite participation in season 5, with Blizzard's weight guaranteeing they follow through, that's a huge deal. Kespa not participating in one season is unfortunate but not big deal to anyone. What everyone is upset with is the attempt to try to kill GSL that is almost definitely implied.
I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM.
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
On August 24 2012 08:12 hunts wrote: But kespa hasn't done anything for SC2, they transitioned over to it in hopes of making money. Kespa did not make SC2 popular, and they certainly aren't trying to progress SC2 it seems, as they are once again trying to kill off competition, which is the opposite of progress. Blizzard owes kespa nothing, and honestly I hope they force kespa to cooperate with gom or shut kespa down.
GOM basically owes itself to the previous success of the SC franchise in Korea, which is in KeSPA's name.
I'm pretty sure they're not trying to "kill off" GOM, which is beyond KeSPA's abilities. They just have to work out the schedules. And anyway, businesses always compete, big deal.
They did it in BW
GOM didn't have their own players in BW.
They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2. Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
Well. They have e-sports federation composed of GSL teams. And kespa didnt like GOM league in the first place because they were getting piece of a pie without working their ass off to get it
I agree with the first part. Federation WILL back Gom. I disagree with the second part though. They did do a fair share of work for SC2.
Yes. I agree, GOM kept Korean SC2 scene alive, but for BW they did none.
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote: [quote] Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
lol yah I would like to see the NFL try to force some crappy things on their players They'd strike starting yesterday.
On August 24 2012 08:47 mrtomjones wrote: They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2.
They have talent that they've incentivized to play in their leagues. No, the organization that runs the leagues isn't technically the organization that represents the teams and players. But that's not relevant.
Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
Yes, KeSPA could have allowed them to come in with a studio and some inferior commentators, set up a tournament, and use KeSPA's own professional player base to take ratings away from the 3+ leagues KeSPA was already running. But there wasn't room for such a league. So they decided to skip it. The money is in the sponsors is in the advertising. The international audience isn't relevant to that. No amount of GOM Classics would stop the fact that if you call a game "Starcraft 2" it's going to turn people off of "Starcraft 1."
I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM.
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
But kespa hasn't done anything for SC2, they transitioned over to it in hopes of making money. Kespa did not make SC2 popular, and they certainly aren't trying to progress SC2 it seems, as they are once again trying to kill off competition, which is the opposite of progress. Blizzard owes kespa nothing, and honestly I hope they force kespa to cooperate with gom or shut kespa down.
I do not even need to respond to this post. Look at the crowd.
All I can say is that Kespa indirectly did a lot for StarCraft II.
They transitioned over in hopes of making money? Answer this, who didn't? lol
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
[quote]
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
Different countries have different rules.
Exactly. That apply for your analogy also.
Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it.
I still think KESPA could get around Blizzard's blacklisted IP restrictions, but if they have a license to hold events already according to that, they still do "own" the players. They don't have to cooperate with GOM at least not by law I don't think. And let's not kid ourselves they own the more intriguing players. JD players 44k views on vod and I can't load my player live, but when 2 GOM players are at it ~5k views. I don't see how Blizzard can force KESPA to have their players play in GOM.
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
Did you even read the conversation that me and Noobcakes was having...the statement was for our argument and you are taking things out of context.
My point was correct, as you said yourself, it is blizzards game and they have final say...that was my point.
You did not say anything about professionalism being the analogy so it is you who f'd up, not my logic or perception (i can't read your mind, type what you mean).
I already said that Kespa grew the BW scene, so not sure what you're trying to say with this, i already said it so of course i agree ("Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest").
And I said "If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would).." ...use the rest of the thought, please...they said they would do it, so excuse me if myself (and blizzard and GOM) are trying to hold them to it.
"Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?" Once again, I already said this, so why is my logic wrong when you are agreeing with what i had already said?
They can do so through legal action if KeSPA breached the terms of the contract. I don't know the term in Korean law, but you can file a temporary restraining order in the US to enforce a term of a contract while the dispute is being settled. Apple just did it to Samsung in the US and several other markets with a phone, and Samsung cannot sell the phone any more. Also, the many of the Kespa members have America branches and do buisness there.
Because that's the law? I mean maybe you guys don't quite understand how IP works... You can't just set up a company that makes a profit off of another person's work without their permission (as stated a hundred times before - licensing). In BW from what I've read, they got away with it because there was no real way to enforce it. Despite the fact that KeSPA 'owns' the players, it still doesn't make what they do any more of a breach of intellectual property rights if they have all the power in Korea and Blizzard doesn't. It's not a play of power, it's a play of rights. Blizzard can do what they like and KeSPA can deal, regardless of how much money and sponsorship they have. It is though, in Blizzard's best interest to get on-side with KeSPA because of the huge potential domestic market.
I don't think you get my point. If the contract was only about having to pay a fee for the IP rights to hold an event then the OSL has already done that seeing as the OSL is about to start. If that is true then they aren't breaching their IP rights because Blizzard has been paid. The IP rights do not extend to Blizzard being able to control what KESPA or anyone does with their players. I don't think that Blizzard can force KESPA to share their players based off a TV/IP rights contract. Blizzard, however, can attempt to shut down an OSL by breaking their contract.
On August 24 2012 06:56 madsweepslol wrote:
On August 24 2012 06:32 NoobSkills wrote:If KESPA decides to run an event Blizzard can fuck with it what only if their Logo isn't shown?
Or they could, you know, simply disconnect OSL tourney's from their servers and shut KeSPA's sc2 efforts down cold. If shit ever went that far, anyways.
Yup agreed, but then Blizzard would be supporting GOM's way which isn't right either. At least quite a few players for KESPA make some money nowadays. I don't know about GOM teams (for sure), but most hint at no salary, just room and board, possible travel.
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
Did you even read the conversation that me and Noobcakes was having...the statement was for our argument and you are taking things out of context.
My point was correct, as you said yourself, it is blizzards game and they have final say...that was my point.
You did not say anything about professionalism being the analogy so it is you who f'd up, not my logic or perception (i can't read your mind, type what you mean).
I already said that Kespa grew the BW scene, so not sure what you're trying to say with this, i already said it so of course i agree ("Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest").
And I said "If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would).." ...use the rest of the thought, please...they said they would do it, so excuse me if myself (and blizzard and GOM) are trying to hold them to it.
"Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?" Once again, I already said this, so why is my logic wrong when you are agreeing with what i had already said?
I agreed with some things you had said and disagreed with others...I said your logic was wrong in the sense of saying that Kespa would not grow esports if they didn't "cooperate". But, everybody has their opinion of things.
On August 24 2012 07:18 Prplppleatr wrote: [quote]
Wow...you realize those are all assumptions, yes?
You are giving KeSPA way too much credit here, imo. If Blizzard wanted to they could revoke KeSPA's rights to SC2 and if they can't put on a tournament, then why would the players care if they broke their rules. They do not own the players..if they wanted to break the rules they would simply be banned from kespa (and if KeSPA can not hold tourneys, who would care?), they would not be thrown in jail or anything like that.
As far as the GOM thing goes, you're making even more assumptions.
Yes, I do? You're right Blizzard could shut down OSL and then KESPA would have nothing for it's players to play in. Then what happens to the KESPA teams? Are they willing to kill that stability and structure to make them share players? Who knows. If it is too far of a reach then please explain why KESPA is holding back their players. If they're not ready to play for a GSL because the GSL players are too good, then why are the GSL players in the OSL? What other reason could they have for holding back their players other than attempting to weaken/destroy the competition.
As far as the GOM team's pay scale thing goes? Are you kidding me? That has been stated over and over again by so many pros that they're not paid or paid very little.
The thing I find funny is that there is a TON of money in the foreign scene and Kespa only seems mildly interested in getting in on that. If they wanted more money they would cooperate with Gom and grow the market instead of fighting over a small chunk which wont grow. Bad business practice imo.
I think they have their eyes on the foreign scene and are making preparations for it. The rumored English stream and working with MLG. Though I don't know how they feel about the MLG format.
My point was that "you are giving kespa too much credit" and if Blizzard wanted to they could play hard ball and kespa would have to comply. And because you haven't seemed to check the OP, the reason that KeSPA did this is because of scheduling conflicts. My personal opinion is that it is bs and hopefully blizz will step in and inform them that this is not cooperation. If they want to do a "huge tournament" then they should inform us about it and let the players decide if they want to risk a scheduling conflict by participating in Code A, especially since they have expressed they want to play in it (from OP, again). And if they need more players then open it up to GOM players as well or even foreigners.
And as the GOM salary thing goes, players obviously don't receive the same accommodations as foreigners but it is also two very different situations: there is less space in korea so they can't have mansions, like some foreigner teams at other parts of the world; the quality of players is significantly higher in korea (ie. supply is greater, with equal demand..price decreases); AND if they really felt that underpaid, why not join a foreign team? especially since so many foreign teams have cooperation's with korean teams......My point is that it is not as bad as you make it out to be, and many others. Are they paid less and receive less, on average, yes most likely, but it only makes sense that it would be the case. Big name players get big money..
If I were the NFL (Kespa) merging with arena football (Gom) I would have a problem with that too considering that our organization is what made the game successful in the first place without the use of the other companies. Giving Kespa "too much credit" is by far an understatement, considering what they have done with the Brood War franchise and the longevity of it's survival. Kespa set up teams, commentators, regulations, had connections with some of the major companies and even established a league with air time that accumulated a vast fan base. Those reasons alone are why Blizzard should not have filed a complaint or pursued the IP issues, much less have a problem with them broadcasting StarCraft two without a grant. Kespa has already paid for itself by the amount of sells StarCraft II received because they played a big role in its success. In otherwords, Kespa should have a choice in what they do and when they do it, because without them to begin with the StarCraft franchise would have died long ago.
You completely missed my point and your analogy is terrible. No one owns football. SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, they own it, and they have the rights to it, period. You are most certainly correct that Kespa made BW into what it became...and GOM helped SC2 grow (also partly off the back of BW's popularity). BUT my point was/is that Blizzard still owns the game, it is their game. If Kespa is not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating (like they said they would) then blizzard can shut them down....ie blizzard is king because it is their game..same with BW.
My analogy suits the situation, your perception and logic is whats terrible. Kespa made SC in Korea a sport for professionalsmuch like the NFL while GOM is a replica of that which is much like arena football. You are correct about SC2 is blizzards game, they made it, own it, and have rights to it period. What I do not agree with is the bolded statement. Kespa did not have to cooperate with Blizzard or Gom for that matter to "grow" StarCraft as an esport. They did so by their sponserships, leagues, events, prize pools and management which resulted in the accumulation of fans, revenue, and overall interest. So, saying Kespa is "not going to help grow esports (again) by not cooperating" is a damn lie. Regardless of their actions there will still be interest in the players, leagues and events. SC2 is riding off the very "esport" that Kespa created so how does your quote have any logic?
The biggest problem is NFL players have a union, so that decisions cannot be forced on them without repercussion.
Different countries have different rules.
Exactly. That apply for your analogy also.
Not exactly. Because StarCraft BW was much like a professional sport in Korea whereas GOM is like a D-League replica of it.
Kespa would never have been the right thing to grow SC2. If you consider Gom to be some D league thing then I will remain quite happy to watch this D league stuff. Keep on hating.
On August 24 2012 08:47 mrtomjones wrote: They don't have their own players technically now either. They did not go the tyrannical route for sc2.
They have talent that they've incentivized to play in their leagues. No, the organization that runs the leagues isn't technically the organization that represents the teams and players. But that's not relevant.
Kespa could have allowed their league to be successful in BW. Growing the game internationally would have likely meant it would still be alive today.
Yes, KeSPA could have allowed them to come in with a studio and some inferior commentators, set up a tournament, and use KeSPA's own professional player base to take ratings away from the 3+ leagues KeSPA was already running. But there wasn't room for such a league. So they decided to skip it. The money is in the sponsors is in the advertising. The international audience isn't relevant to that. No amount of GOM Classics would stop the fact that if you call a game "Starcraft 2" it's going to turn people off of "Starcraft 1."
Actually is it VERY relevant since it is the heart of this issue. Kespa is not allowing their players into the GSL and Gom technically has no power to stop their players directly.
EPT
They'd strike starting yesterday.
