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On August 15 2012 03:12 Gentso wrote:
First of all, I can't believe anyone would bash on Day 9 for hyping HOTS here. This is obviously just a promotional video that Blizzard asked Day 9 to be a part of. I'm sure anywhere else Day 9 would give his honest opinion of what he thinks, and I bet he's already done that a million times.
Second of all, it's impossible to make any concrete judgement on balance, theory, styles, or anything of the like from one video. SC2 constantly evolved over 2 years. Unit comps, aggressive vs defensive styles, multi-task, unit roles, and all of that changed constantly in WOL. All you're seeing is two people's interpretations of new units and nothing more.
I don't get this either, though for a different reason. Day9 has never truly criticized the design of SC2. Even when he wasn't on Blizzard's payroll, like he is in this video. He simply doesn't do it publically, for whatever reason. Don't really know why, a lot of pros and community figures criticize Blizzard's decisions on a regular basis, and the sky doesn't fall on their heads.
I suppose some people have just now woken up to the deficiencies of Day9's casting style, with all the fake excitement and stupid comments ("The Terran player's macro has been absolutely amazing!" as the Terran is floating 3k minerals at 150 supply and making two hellions at a time).
On August 15 2012 03:12 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +For example, what is there to fix in the collossi? it's balanced and has it's place in the metagame, but it's just awfully designed and is one of the reasons deathballs are so strong in protoss matchups.
What is there to balance in PvP? Nothing, right? Everything is fine aside from the fact that the player with more collossi wins a 200/200 battle with +100 supply difference. It's not fun to play and not fun to watch these players mass up an amount of collossi and attack. I don't know why you still feel this way. Top level of Protoss play doesn't rely on massing a death ball anymore. That's currently Zerg's style versus Protoss. Even still, SC2 has definitely evolved into emphasizing timings and mutli-tasking for every race. It's been two years and only now is top level of play shaping up this way.
You don't know why he feels this way because you obviously don't watch a lot of SC2. Any PvP that goes beyond 1base vs 1base almost always features mass Colossi.
On August 15 2012 03:12 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +Same goes for the deisgn of roach and marauder. People hoped that pvt mech would look like in brood war, with extensive siege lines and terrorizing hellion squads at far away expos, drawing away protoss units. Instead they saw some clumped mech units move around. positioning didn't seem to mean much with the simple control and high dps of the war hound. I hate this mentality of people wanting this game to act like Brood War. You will never be satisfied because this game isn't trying to be Brood War if you haven't noticed.
And I hate people who latch on to the BW comparison instead of addressing the heart of the criticism. SC2 not being like Brood War is fine. Warcraft 3 was even less like BW than SC2, and it was a great game on its own merits. SC2 though, feels like a simple downgrade. Better UI, worse everything else.
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Am I the only only thinking that the Tempest is kinda bad? I mean, it's going to cost a shit ton of money and has a really high range and does splash dmg (only to air?!), but it seems to have a reeeeally low dps.
Especially vs. Terran I can't see anyone using it, unless you wanna try some special tactics and kill some SCVs from across the map..
It's good to have a unit with high range to support your army from far behind, but with that low dps I don't think the high price is worth getting it (you'd need a Fleet Beacon aswell).
Of course that's just my opinion and maybe it's too early to say that, but anyway I'd like to have some input from you guys aswell 
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On August 15 2012 03:41 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:37 Cloak wrote:On August 15 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:On August 15 2012 03:02 Cloak wrote:
If the Tempest kept its DPS, but had a really wide splash range, I can see it being useful without overpowering its sniping capabilities. Also is it me, or does David Kim from the BR think that Protoss just overextend and throw shit at their opponents? Like no positional play, just run behind enemy lines and get to a point of no return. After going back and watching HoTS TvZ and PvZ, those matchups are still interesting. I can't even imagine how that would look like in TvP. What a nightmare. It wouldn't be so bad. Tempest just need something to be useful when it's 200 vs. 200. They're practically just a tinkle at that point for being 300/300. If air is supposed to "counter" mech, it needs to actually make them die at some point. I think the ability to un-siege and force mech positions to relocate is extremely powerful in itself.
But Broodlords get that ability, on top of having obscene DPS, and they're amazing during deathball fights. Since Tempest can fire at air things. I can understand it being weaker, but not Marine level weak.
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On August 14 2012 11:37 FinalForm wrote:
so protoss don't have to demonstrate any map awareness with their harrass because of recall?
theres no element of calculated risk that separates pros from scrubs that just run around with no vision or no understanding of enemy unit movements
In case you haven't noticed, Protoss have the slowest armies outside of sieged tanks. They also have the most gas intensive armies early game. You might also notice that if both players go aggressive, Protoss loses in a head to head battle early on for the most part. Protoss have no creep spread or overlords or 25 mineral lings to spot army movements. Protoss don't have the ability to stim and run away. Observers don't come particularly early, nor cheap, nor are they very fast, nor do they not take up considerable time building in the robo.
It seems to me that recalling once every few minutes is a fair trade for all of those racial distinctions. It will be grandly nice to not have to sit in my base and either turtle madly or go for a hardcore 2 base all in. Harassment, here I come!
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TL hating everything that doesn`t require 300+ APM. Lol, big news.
Day9 not hating SC2? Freaking breaking news!!11111.
Blizard not listening to TL`s oh so importaint oppinion? Even more breaking news.
People on TL are surprising, to say the least.
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the important thing i got out of this battle report is, that you still build battle hellions from factories, which i find annoying in terms of getting them fast to your army, hopefully the morphing will work smoothly with commands and won't be like getting hit by fungal and every command is lost and you can't give out movement commands while fungal works.
Other then that battle report was as expected, though the map was a suprise and i liked how they showcased how blocking pathes can mess people up or aid you.
Also damn the hellion battle hellion combination is evil.
But with storm canon combination tempest will be as annoying as spine infestor broodlords, maybe even more. Though it deals perfectly with spine infestor broodlord lol.
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On August 14 2012 11:45 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn Yeah, it's retarded if you think about it. lol. Dustin Browder and his rocks. ^^
Man, people have no imagination. Granted, the destroy 500 life, new 2000 life spawns made me laugh. But think about this picture:
. ____
/ ||||||||| \
| ||||||||| | <---- 2000 HP.
\ |||||| /
. \ || /
.. ||| <---- 500 HP
. / | \
EDIT: omg ASCII fail in the forums....
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What will happen to the units that will get beneath the destructible rocks?
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On August 15 2012 04:13 RogerShah wrote:
What will happen to the units that will get beneath the destructible rocks?
They will fullfill Dustin's greatest vision
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Not sure if it has been mentioned, but watching the report made me think the protoss could have really used some carriers.
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On August 15 2012 04:28 Startyr wrote:
Not sure if it has been mentioned, but watching the report made me think the protoss could have really used some carriers.
Yes my thoughts exactly. I posted this in the "Save the Carrier" thread also.
I really think that they should have replaced the voidray with the tempest, not the carrier. The new tempest would be 22 range and anti massive, cost a bit less but less durable and probably uses dark templar tech. I feel that the tempest is too gimmicky and 1 dimensional to become the new "capital ship". It lacks the feel of an awe inspiring and exponentially overpowering main battleship. It's more like an artillery piece. Hell, this is total theorycraft, but you can even keep the whole "prismatic core" thing and the original void ray beam attack, but add the upgrade in the fleet beacon that give the new tempest/void ray the 22 range long cool down attack. Once the upgrade finishes, the 3 "arms" of the void ray opens up and transforms to a tempest like circle thing with a beam in the middle. It'll automatically use the beam attack if an enemy is less than 6 range. This adds micro potential between using "beam attack" or "long range attack". I know this is going into stupid radical ideas suited for bnet forums.  I don't claim to know better than Blizzard but I would try this out instead of removing the carrier.
Considering that the void ray is seeing abysmal overall usage, especially since it's one of the most hyped and beloved unit during the beta, I think this would be something worth testing out.
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People can't tell that Day9 was joking when he said "what a greaaat macro" ? Come on guys.
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Watching it, and the new units - Blizz is clearly trying to get Terrans to use Mech in TvP instead of MMM and meat balls.
Problem, the mech ground army is even more bad assed than they expected, and the counter to a Marauder based army is completely decimated by the new battle hellion, and since everything else except Templar are mechanical, Warhounds are just going to dominate.
I was REALLY surprised to how little effect the mineral shields had, and how fast the SCV's could take them down. It wasn't affecting income - it was a minor inconvience. Terran drops 2 mules, and it is like it didn't even happen. I always thought the oracle was a joke - income harrassment which doesnt kill workers. >.<
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I would like to see these battle reports played out with people who actually know how to properly play a strategy game. Maybe then we will get a real idea of how all the new stuff will properly fit in.
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On August 15 2012 04:10 Blacklizard wrote:Show nested quote +On August 14 2012 11:45 darkness wrote:On August 14 2012 11:44 Aratan wrote:On August 14 2012 11:42 Silentness wrote:
Am I the only one that feels like were being trolled by the new "destructible rocks". They literally blow up into MORE got damn rocks. I know someone joked about Blizzard making destructible rocks under more rocks, but they are seriously thinking it's a good idea. Hopefully they change their minds and remove it during the actual game release. Hah i was thinking the same thing. Destroy 500 life rocks, new 2000 life rocks spawn Yeah, it's retarded if you think about it. lol. Dustin Browder and his rocks. ^^ Man, people have no imagination. Granted, the destroy 500 life, new 2000 life spawns made me laugh. But think about this picture: . ____ / ||||||||| \ | ||||||||| | <---- 2000 HP. \ |||||| / . \ || / .. ||| <---- 500 HP . / | \ EDIT: omg ASCII fail in the forums....
I love that space rocket. Very creative
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Well, not impressed so far.
At least the Warhound portrait reminds me of some dude from Full metal alchemist.
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On August 15 2012 03:41 Gentso wrote:Show nested quote +On August 15 2012 03:37 Cloak wrote:On August 15 2012 03:05 monkybone wrote:On August 15 2012 03:02 Cloak wrote:
If the Tempest kept its DPS, but had a really wide splash range, I can see it being useful without overpowering its sniping capabilities. Also is it me, or does David Kim from the BR think that Protoss just overextend and throw shit at their opponents? Like no positional play, just run behind enemy lines and get to a point of no return. After going back and watching HoTS TvZ and PvZ, those matchups are still interesting. I can't even imagine how that would look like in TvP. What a nightmare. It wouldn't be so bad. Tempest just need something to be useful when it's 200 vs. 200. They're practically just a tinkle at that point for being 300/300. If air is supposed to "counter" mech, it needs to actually make them die at some point. I think the ability to un-siege and force mech positions to relocate is extremely powerful in itself.
In BW, sometimes I would use the scout for that purpose. Perhaps it will be like a better version of the scout, but really, if mech is anything like it was in BW... the mothership better become a lot faster, because having to use stasis from a unit with the movement speed of a turtle doesn't sound too helpful. I just hope every game doesn't become max vs max like pvz, ugh.
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I thought this image posted on esreality by fuzz somehow fits perfectly to the situation at hand. Dedicated to all the people raging to withhold any criticism:
![[image loading]](http://www.esreality.com/files/placeimages/2012/90042-RJykC.jpg)
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Guys, I've been thinking of something. Shouldn't Blizzard like, design a medusa unit? Medusa will turn every unit it sees into stone, thus creating new destructible rocks, anywhere on the map!
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EPT
