For the next thirteen months, the Korean eSports Association (KeSPA) and eSports Federation cannot transfer players to each other. This trade lock period will last until October 2013.
On Wednesday, August 8th, KeSPA, a governing organization over Proleague, and eSports Fed., which participate in GSTL, came to an official agreement on the matter of player transfers.
Both parties restated their goal on joint development of the e-sports scene and signed an agreement on player transfers and partnerships to protect both players and the leagues. They stated that the agreement will allow eSports Federation to aquire new sponsors and be self-sustainable, while KeSPA players switching to StarCraft 2 can become competitive in the long run.
Oops, title was too long for actual thread. October 2013. Not October 2012.
I like the move. Will let teams like TSL, Prime, etc. still looking for big sponsors like Startale/IM be able to keep their star players and attract said sponsors. Will give the KeSPA players the peace of mind to know that their team won't just go off and buy a bunch of GSL players who are already two years more developed and probably cheaper.
October 2013??? I guess after a year the scene should be more stable and be able to support all those teams. It also gives sponsers the time to see if sc2 will blossom in Korea to BW levels (highly doubt it though)
Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
The article mentions partnerships but doesn't explain what about them specificallly. Are they banned untill Oct too? Unlikely to see something like KT.SK.LG-IM?
They don't mention coach-acquisition though and "retirements" - i.e. BW player retires from ACE, goes to SC2 team; or GSL player quits progaming and goes coach for a Kespa team. Such moves still seem possible.
So does this only protect player transfers between the two organizations?
While we all know it'll be near impossible for any Kespa player to be courted by a foreign team, this surely doesn't mean that GSL players are now exclusive as well does it?
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
Free agency is another thing, out of contract players probably dont have anything to do with this. The point is to avoid some kind of poaching or forced transfers that might be problematic.
That having been said there is probably some allowance to make sure players arent just released from contracts so they can be moved from Fed to Kespa or vice versa, doing that would be rather obvious and I doubt you could get away with it.
There are SO many ins and outs, loopholes and ramifications to this agreement that we don't know about, that have such important implications. What's the exclusivity cover? Who exactly can't go where? Who CAN go where? Jesus this is pretty monumental. And a year is a fucking long time.
By the way, we could consider their chosen date - Oct 2013 - as a reasonable estimation of when to expect Kespa players to be considered "fully developed" in SC2. By that time we'd know if they dominate the scene as predicted or are just "alright".
This lockout imply no more korean/foreign team partnerships till oct'13? What happens if foreign teams sign KeSPA/GSL players, ie dignitasFlash, and then the team partners with Prime?
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
I was thinking the same thing, I suppose there are sneaky ways around it....or you could temporarily announce that your retiring..and then claim that you could not stay away from the game and come back :p
"Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them."
IMO this is the biggest news. Now anyone, including foreigners, who's been in A or S can have a Progamer License - something previously insanely difficult to get!
On August 08 2012 14:47 heyoka wrote: Huh interesting. Wonder if it will affect anything.
Nope, just pretend bw is still going strong and so no one would be changing teams in such a way. Of course this pretend-bw will suffer a severe heart attack on october 2013 and that will be the end of it.
On August 08 2012 14:27 Hazuc wrote: What about players that decide to do coaching like Clide?
I think coaching transfers are fine, the post specifically stated that it was player transfer, so if we take that literally, then players who transfer to play in another team. Don't quote me on that though, someone else will have to confirm.
Seems silly! Both sides are already competing with each other in the WCG, WCS, GSL, OSL and soon foreign tournaments. They will be able to compete between themselves over new talent in Korea and sign foreign players. The current player pools is is really good but the skills will diminish over time and so the real battle over the most skill youngsters is more important.
On August 08 2012 14:55 Advantageous wrote: holy crap? 2013?! so after HotS comes out? and does this mean M18M's trade would be the only trade thats valid?
hmm, from the language of the summary, it seems that players leaving the military aren't restricted? But there might be fine print we don't know about :|
On August 08 2012 14:55 Advantageous wrote: holy crap? 2013?! so after HotS comes out? and does this mean M18M's trade would be the only trade thats valid?
His wasn't a trade, his military service ended and he wasn't on a team when LighT picked him up.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
Hint: they probably couldn't afford them anyway >.>
Flash maybe but EG.Jaedong doesn't seem too unreal.
EG loves hype and they excel at promoting their sponsors.
Just think how Jaedong is popular outside of Korea, getting extra money from sponsors for that kind of exposure shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If EG wanted Jaedong, they'd have to cut their entire team.
It would literally be Scoots and Jaedong.
So Jaedong would essentially have 32 personal sponsors, Seems fitting.
Not really. He needs >50
IIRC
Flash ~$400,000 p.a
Jaedong ~$120,000 p.a
Bisu ~$200,000 p.a
That's just salary and excluding the actual trade price. KT and SKT also pay skilled veterans quite a lot even though they aren't in peak form. Bisu is still the highest paid in SKT even though its been years since his last individual tournament appearance, Oov got paid a huge sum of money for coaching, Nada was still being paid a lot even though he wasn't appearing on TV very much. This is a really good reason to stay on Proleague teams, you can be one of the highest paid players without winning a single tournament for years, you can also be old and bad and still get paid a lot, while GSL teams are picking up the scraps and relying on tournament winnings.
EG would need to sponsored by a company like Microsoft with millions of dollars of spare cash to burn to have that kind of money.
Hmm, let me know if I understand the thinking behind this:
- Kespa teams has a lot of money and sponsors. But their players are not that hot in sc2 just yet. - GSL teams have less money, but the currently best sc2 players.
so with a free market:
- the kespa teams would buy the best sc2 players players from the GSL teams. - The GSL teams lose their sponsors, as they don't have any good players any longer. - the previous kespa players get demoted to B-team, or fired, and have to fight their way of from the bottom like everyone else.
So to protect the kespa players and the GSL teams, they do this lock until the GSL teams get better economy (DRONES ffs!!) and the kespa players can catch up in sc2 skill? Did I get that right?
Questions: 1) How will kespa teams keep their income? I guess the sponsors are leaving sc:bw now, and if the kespa players do not pick it up quick, they won't get more? 2) Transfers from kespa teams to GSL teams isn't really an issue then? They just blocked both ways to make it fair?
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
Hint: they probably couldn't afford them anyway >.>
Flash maybe but EG.Jaedong doesn't seem too unreal.
EG loves hype and they excel at promoting their sponsors.
Just think how Jaedong is popular outside of Korea, getting extra money from sponsors for that kind of exposure shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If EG wanted Jaedong, they'd have to cut their entire team.
It would literally be Scoots and Jaedong.
So Jaedong would essentially have 32 personal sponsors, Seems fitting.
Not really. He needs >50
IIRC
Flash ~$400,000 p.a
Jaedong ~$120,000 p.a
Bisu ~$200,000 p.a
That's just salary and excluding the actual trade price. KT and SKT also pay skilled veterans quite a lot even though they aren't in peak form. Bisu is still the highest paid in SKT even though its been years since his last individual tournament appearance, Oov got paid a huge sum of money for coaching, Nada was still being paid a lot even though he wasn't appearing on TV very much. This is a really good reason to stay on Proleague teams, you can be one of the highest paid players without winning a single tournament for years, you can also be old and bad and still get paid a lot, while GSL teams are picking up the scraps and relying on tournament winnings.
I wonder if those values will change with everyone switching to SC2 now, i.e. some getting less, like Bisu, who hasn't won any match in SC2, I think.
Does anyone have any details on these Kespa progamer licenses? Are they essentially a contract? And if so, are there typical durations for these licenses? Are Kespa pros right now pretty much contracted to Kespa until October 2013?
Honestly, this seems like it would help the Federation more than KeSPA. I imagine KeSPA players will be caught up by early-mid next year. Most of them will probably be competing at a good level by June at the latest. This allows time for KeSPA to make SC2 more popular in Korea, and give times for teams like TSL to find bigger sponsors from that popularity, if it actually becomes more popular. Those type of sponsorship deals probably take more time to set up than player transfers. And if those sponsors think they can just sponsor a KeSPA organization and that KeSPA organization will buy out Federation players they may be more likely to do that. Obviously I'm working off of assumptions, but I think they are fair enough.
I still think it seems longer than it needs to be, but I suppose taking longer and not risking killing teams/organizations is probably better than jumping the gun just so cross pollination can happen.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
Hint: they probably couldn't afford them anyway >.>
Flash maybe but EG.Jaedong doesn't seem too unreal.
EG loves hype and they excel at promoting their sponsors.
Just think how Jaedong is popular outside of Korea, getting extra money from sponsors for that kind of exposure shouldn't be too much of a problem.
If EG wanted Jaedong, they'd have to cut their entire team.
It would literally be Scoots and Jaedong.
So Jaedong would essentially have 32 personal sponsors, Seems fitting.
Not really. He needs >50
IIRC
Flash ~$400,000 p.a
Jaedong ~$120,000 p.a
Bisu ~$200,000 p.a
That's just salary and excluding the actual trade price. KT and SKT also pay skilled veterans quite a lot even though they aren't in peak form. Bisu is still the highest paid in SKT even though its been years since his last individual tournament appearance, Oov got paid a huge sum of money for coaching, Nada was still being paid a lot even though he wasn't appearing on TV very much. This is a really good reason to stay on Proleague teams, you can be one of the highest paid players without winning a single tournament for years, you can also be old and bad and still get paid a lot, while GSL teams are picking up the scraps and relying on tournament winnings.
I wonder if those values will change with everyone switching to SC2 now, i.e. some getting less, like Bisu, who hasn't won any match in SC2, I think.
There may be a drop, but considering Nada was the highest paid progamer even just before he retired, I wouldn't be surprised if Bisu still got paid a lot more than the newbies.
I think that a year sounds just fine, we all know that once Kespa takes over (and they will), everything is gonna be screwed up, and full of lame rules. That is what they're known for afterall.
Now wait just a moment. Does the eSports Federation automatically include all teams in the GSTL? I remember that Slayers was the only major Korean team that wasn't part of the Federation, and I pretty sure that Liquid, EG, and Fnatic were not members before either. Are they members now?
"Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them."
IMO this is the biggest news. Now anyone, including foreigners, who's been in A or S can have a Progamer License - something previously insanely difficult to get!
its actually pointless
back in the bw days, if you were GOOD ENOUGH to win the OSL finals, then it didnt matter if you were a foreigner and it was "hard to get a progamer license" you could easily get one and compete. But no one was good enough.
the truth is people like to try and say the kespa progamer license was something "stopping foreigners from becoming fruitful in bw".... thats not true. foreigners just werent good enough.
now foreigners ARE good enough, so they are making this slight change. but make no mistake this essentially doesnt really mean anything because even if they kept the old system players good enough to compete with the best would easily get progamer licenses regardless.
Is it possible for some rich company like Microsoft or apple or maybe even a Team Blizzard to step in and buy the best/most famous from GOM and kespa? Like a team with DRG MKP mc MVP Taeja NesTea flash Jaedong Bisu Soulkey etc?
I gotta say this is a pretty fantastic long term plan. Really shows that both parties want to make sure SC2 has the best opportunity of taking off where Brood War finished up. Its a long time but in the overall scheme of things its a great step.
On August 08 2012 15:16 starception wrote: Is it possible for some rich company like Microsoft or apple or maybe even a Team Blizzard to step in and buy the best/most famous from GOM and kespa? Like a team with DRG MKP mc MVP Taeja NesTea flash Jaedong Bisu Soulkey etc?
Even if they could, what would be the point? Noone would watching Starcraft anymore because it would be one team wrecking everyone else.
ah wow, nice read. didn't expect contracts to be so public :o especially with all the sc2 contract hidden-ness haha i reckon EG or coL maybe would be able to shell out $120k per year (rough 130mw or around jaedong's old contract price), especially cos huk was rumoured to have 100k+ contract
This is very good for continued development of SC2 scene in Korea. What this provides is the stability, which allows both sides to focus only on improving the quality of SC2 contents for fans. For once, Kespa did the right thing.
On the other hand, MBC is looking like an idiot for dropping their e-sports division for a music channel. What a dumb retarded move...
ah wow, nice read. didn't expect contracts to be so public :o especially with all the sc2 contract hidden-ness haha i reckon EG or coL maybe would be able to shell out $120k per year (rough 130mw or around jaedong's old contract price), especially cos huk was rumoured to have 100k+ contract
That may be his contract price, but the kespa players won't budge without bonuses too.
ah wow, nice read. didn't expect contracts to be so public :o especially with all the sc2 contract hidden-ness haha i reckon EG or coL maybe would be able to shell out $120k per year (rough 130mw or around jaedong's old contract price), especially cos huk was rumoured to have 100k+ contract
That may be his contract price, but the kespa players won't budge without bonuses too.
yeah, i know, still pretty cool
makes me wonder how much sc2 players on teams without many sponsors are paid. e.g. nshoseo is a college team, jjakji can't be paid very much. also prime probably doesn't have much pay either hrmm. can't really imagine many teams apart from LG-IM and maybe ST that can pay well?
Could a player use an intermediary to facilitate a transfer? For example, some Kespa team player leaves, gets sponsored by Random Company for some specific tournament, then joins eSports Fed team. Viable?
For the next thirteen months, the Korean eSports Association (KeSPA) and eSports Federation cannot transfer players to each other. This trade lock period will last until October 2013.
On Wednesday, August 8th, KeSPA, a governing organization over Proleague, and eSports Fed., which participate in GSTL, came to an official agreement on the matter of player transfers.
Both parties restated their goal on joint development of the e-sports scene and signed an agreement on player transfers and partnerships to protect both players and the leagues. They stated that the agreement will allow eSports Federation to aquire new sponsors and be self-sustainable, while KeSPA players switching to StarCraft 2 can become competitive in the long run.
Oops, title was too long for actual thread. October 2013. Not October 2012.
I like the move. Will let teams like TSL, Prime, etc. still looking for big sponsors like Startale/IM be able to keep their star players and attract said sponsors. Will give the KeSPA players the peace of mind to know that their team won't just go off and buy a bunch of GSL players who are already two years more developed and probably cheaper.
On August 08 2012 15:44 Spektrum wrote: Could a player use an intermediary to facilitate a transfer? For example, some Kespa team player leaves, gets sponsored by Random Company for some specific tournament, then joins eSports Fed team. Viable?
i can't imagine many kespa players wanting to switch to ESF teams unless they reallyyy want the practice partners/ability to compete unrestricted in foreign tournaments, because kespa has (i assume) a lot more money to pay. they still have the ladder for practice i guess
-All Kespa-run proteams have agreed not to bring in any current SC2 progamers under Gretech for a year.
Also, this quote from the article is especially interesting.:
Any GSL players not included in the 25-player roster from the Federation as well as players qualified in the KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament (formerly known as the Courage Match) will be able to join KeSPA teams during its draft period.
So will this still mean that if a player purposely drops out of a team, it will be possible for them to join a KeSPA team? And I find this "KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament" intriguing considering that it's supposed to replace Courage.
Also:
Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them.
So it does seem that KeSPA is still sticking to its old Progamer license tradition, though with Code A being a qualifier for the time being. Would this be a requirement for playing in Proleague and OSL? Would it extend to the partnerships that the GSL teams and foreign teams have? And those professionalism seminars often have photos of progamers sleeping through them in the audience haha.
So not SlayerS, and no "foreign" teams besides FXO.
According to the article, even SlayerS is participating in this trade lock despite not being a Federation team.
This agreement prohibits KeSPA-affiliated teams to acquire players from eSports Federation (including SlayerS) until October 2013. Players affected by this agreement will be 25 players per each team's roster, and the Federation will periodically report 25 players in their roster to KeSPA. As per agreement, transfers will be possible regardless of the roster after October of next year.
Not sure about FXO, though. However, FXOBoSs tends to read through these forums sometimes, so he might show up sooner or later to hint at what FXO's stance on this is.
On August 08 2012 15:16 starception wrote: Is it possible for some rich company like Microsoft or apple or maybe even a Team Blizzard to step in and buy the best/most famous from GOM and kespa? Like a team with DRG MKP mc MVP Taeja NesTea flash Jaedong Bisu Soulkey etc?
If that happen, then every GSTL,PL will be dominated by that team. And Also I think the scene will go down because now all the people who are new will just recognize this 1 team
HOTS will be out long before this is up...don't really like it tbh...I thought they already had such an agreement, but to extend it this long seems a bit silly
On August 08 2012 15:16 starception wrote: Is it possible for some rich company like Microsoft or apple or maybe even a Team Blizzard to step in and buy the best/most famous from GOM and kespa? Like a team with DRG MKP mc MVP Taeja NesTea flash Jaedong Bisu Soulkey etc?
If that happen, then every GSTL,PL will be dominated by that team. And Also I think the scene will go down because now all the people who are new will just recognize this 1 team
On August 08 2012 15:51 eviltomahawk wrote: Not sure about FXO, though. However, FXOBoSs tends to read through these forums sometimes, so he might show up sooner or later to hint at what FXO's stance on this is.
I think the Brood War bias is rampant here. First, with Brood War waiting to be put down like a sick dog, the amount of money BW teams have to play with is completely up in the air. They aren't teams in the sense that Slayers is a team. BW teams are extensions of the companies who own them, and will exist as such only as long as they can be made profittable. Saying otherwise shows you have no understanding of business. And from what I've read, SC2 is not popular in Korea.
Secondly, what to do all the currently successful Korean SC2 pros have in common? They either win GSL, or they go play in foreign events. Guys like MMA bring in more bank from foreign tourneys than from GSL, thats for sure. Exactly how interested is KeSPA in the western scene? Because that is where all the money is at. Even GomTV is thriving off western money right now. KeSPA has been notoriously against letting their players play in other events.
Thirdly, GomTV has always had the full blessing of Blizzard Entertainment behind them. As long as GomTV successfully promotes SC2 in and out of Korea, I don't see that changing. It really helps that Gom is always more than willing to interact with the western audience and players. That alone assures that they will receive money from the people who like that. When was the last time we had a foriegn player in KeSPA?
I don't see KeSPA coming out on top. Not now. Not a year from now. Not ever again.
On August 08 2012 15:56 zerger420 wrote: Isn't October 2013 a bit optomisitic? I imagine LoL will completely take over by then.
HOTS will breathe life back into SC2; And Dota2 will hurt LoL.
But in either way, i hope to god not. I hate LoL and mobas.
Mobas are good, like dota,dota2, But yeah i also hate lol.
I cant stand mobas at all. I cant stand any form of RPG where you have one character :/ ive never finished a single moba match, none the less a RPG. I havent even finished WoL campaign :p I get bored
On August 08 2012 16:29 BanditX wrote: I think the Brood War bias is rampant here. First, with Brood War waiting to be put down like a sick dog, the amount of money BW teams have to play with is completely up in the air. They aren't teams in the sense that Slayers is a team. BW teams are extensions of the companies who own them, and will exist as such only as long as they can be made profittable. Saying otherwise shows you have no understanding of business. And from what I've read, SC2 is not popular in Korea.
Secondly, what to do all the currently successful Korean SC2 pros have in common? They either win GSL, or they go play in foreign events. Guys like MMA bring in more bank from foreign tourneys than from GSL, thats for sure. Exactly how interested is KeSPA in the western scene? Because that is where all the money is at. Even GomTV is thriving off western money right now. KeSPA has been notoriously against letting their players play in other events.
Thirdly, GomTV has always had the full blessing of Blizzard Entertainment behind them. As long as GomTV successfully promotes SC2 in and out of Korea, I don't see that changing. It really helps that Gom is always more than willing to interact with the western audience and players. That alone assures that they will receive money from the people who like that. When was the last time we had a foriegn player in KeSPA?
I don't see KeSPA coming out on top. Not now. Not a year from now. Not ever again.
Every Kespa and GOM player says in a few months Kespa players will be more or less equal, to say nothing of how HotS will reset things.
Any GSL players not included in the 25-player roster from the Federation as well as players qualified in the KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament (formerly known as the Courage Match) will be able to join KeSPA teams during its draft period.
So will this still mean that if a player purposely drops out of a team, it will be possible for them to join a KeSPA team? And I find this "KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament" intriguing considering that it's supposed to replace Courage.
Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them.
So it does seem that KeSPA is still sticking to its old Progamer license tradition, though with Code A being a qualifier for the time being. Would this be a requirement for playing in Proleague and OSL? Would it extend to the partnerships that the GSL teams and foreign teams have? And those professionalism seminars often have photos of progamers sleeping through them in the audience haha.
Given some of the crap that's gone on so far in SC2 in various ways, with lots of drama, having professionalism seminars isn't a bad idea.
On August 08 2012 15:49 eviltomahawk wrote: Not surprising. It was even mentioned in one of the rumors threads.
-All Kespa-run proteams have agreed not to bring in any current SC2 progamers under Gretech for a year.
Also, this quote from the article is especially interesting.:
Any GSL players not included in the 25-player roster from the Federation as well as players qualified in the KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament (formerly known as the Courage Match) will be able to join KeSPA teams during its draft period.
So will this still mean that if a player purposely drops out of a team, it will be possible for them to join a KeSPA team? And I find this "KeSPA-hosted amateur tournament" intriguing considering that it's supposed to replace Courage.
Also:
Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them.
So it does seem that KeSPA is still sticking to its old Progamer license tradition, though with Code A being a qualifier for the time being. Would this be a requirement for playing in Proleague and OSL? Would it extend to the partnerships that the GSL teams and foreign teams have? And those professionalism seminars often have photos of progamers sleeping through them in the audience haha.
Given some of the crap that's gone on so far in SC2 in various ways, with lots of drama, having professionalism seminars isn't a bad idea.
Jessica needs a few PR classes that's for sure haha
Makes sense, KESPA would try anything to keep their league from going under, if they began swapping players between each league, one would become more interesting than the other.
However on that note im sure there will be many cross leagues between the two (GSL & KESPA) im pretty sure the next move will be a SC2 team league between the two companies. I think it's a good move
I´m not liking this move. This is only a short-term solution that will just prolong the culling that is needed within the Korean teams. As Nazgul has stated previously in his episode in The Executives there are to many pro-teams in Korea to be sustained by the available big sponsors.
That results in good teams being unable to find sponsors and paying almost nothing to most of their players. That is also one of the reasons a lot of Koreans look for contracts with foreign teams as they appear to have the business side of things a lot better under control.
With Kespa switching to SC2 I was hoping some of the weaker Korean teams would disappear. The GOM teams currently have the strongest SC2 players but almost all sponsors available for the Korean SC2 scene are tied up in the weak(er) Kespa teams. This is a very unhealthy situation and this trade embargo is only going to make things worse because the good GOM teams can´t pick up a few big Kespa names to increase their sponsor appeal (and in the process the overall health of their team) and the Kespa teams can´t pick up a good GOM player to shore up their weak line-up.
Either way something has to give and a few pro-teams need to disappear sad as it may be.
ps. all this could be a good thing for foreign teams who have everything in order as they are not bound by any agreement like this and can potentially pick up some nice (Kespa)players.
wtf... does anyone even think about the players in korea, or are they just replaceable trash to their team managers? protect the teams at all costs, what players think about this is not important. i hate such behaviour.
On August 08 2012 16:43 Golden Ghost wrote: It also isn´t helping that both GOM and Kespa teams can´t participate in eachothers events. This splits up the scene even more and divides the available audience thus reducing the sponsor appeal. Either way something has to give and a few pro-teams need to disappear sad as it may be.
wut?
Chae has stated that Kespa players are free to join GSL at any time, current OSL already has and probably will be won by a Code S player and once the hybrid format is out GSL teams will probably join proleague as well.
On August 08 2012 15:01 Cascade wrote: Hmm, let me know if I understand the thinking behind this:
- Kespa teams has a lot of money and sponsors. But their players are not that hot in sc2 just yet. - GSL teams have less money, but the currently best sc2 players.
so with a free market:
- the kespa teams would buy the best sc2 players players from the GSL teams. - The GSL teams lose their sponsors, as they don't have any good players any longer. - the previous kespa players get demoted to B-team, or fired, and have to fight their way of from the bottom like everyone else.
So to protect the kespa players and the GSL teams, they do this lock until the GSL teams get better economy (DRONES ffs!!) and the kespa players can catch up in sc2 skill? Did I get that right?
Questions: 1) How will kespa teams keep their income? I guess the sponsors are leaving sc:bw now, and if the kespa players do not pick it up quick, they won't get more? 2) Transfers from kespa teams to GSL teams isn't really an issue then? They just blocked both ways to make it fair?
thanks.
The Kespa teams have huge companies (CJ, Samsung, Telekom, etc) sponsoring them. Money wont be the problem..
On August 08 2012 15:56 zerger420 wrote: Isn't October 2013 a bit optomisitic? I imagine LoL will completely take over by then.
HOTS will breathe life back into SC2; And Dota2 will hurt LoL.
But in either way, i hope to god not. I hate LoL and mobas.
DotA was never a heavy hitting title in Korea and now they have LoL, Dota2 won't hurt LoL in favour of sc2 at all. In the west and China Dota2 may do that since DotA have alot of history here and in China. I don't think HotS will "breathe life" back into sc2 in the way you think/hope it will either. But we shall see!
OnT: I don't know how I like this. In one way I think it's way to long and in another way it's good because the smaller teams won't get picked apart and that means more teams for GSTL and Proleague.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
I think EG and Liquid should be part of the federation, don't they? It would be kind of weird to see this, but i'm not sure it's impossible because of this agreement.
@GoldenGhost: This doesn't keep teams from disappearing, right? Also, if a team disappears, i feels natural for the players on the team to become free agents (or to be sucked up by another team). I don't think the agreement will prevent this.
This agreement is a step forward in trusting eachother. I agree i'd rather don't have it, but as an in between step it's not too bad.
Am I the only one who thinks that this is a MASSIVE chokehold to the still wellknown but not top players who would want to transfer to a foreign team and go overseas and see something else than Korea?
Like, the foreign teams couldnt even afford the superstars anywyas unless they agree to a massive pay reduction which I honestly doubt..
Seems like M18M was the only one who got away in time >.>
I suppose you could "retire" and then decide to come back to progaming as a way of dodging this agreement which I personally think hurts the progamers on the KeSPA teams
To clarify myself: I can EASILY see why they made this agreement; to protect non-wealthy teams from loosing all their star playrerts to the wealthy KeSPA teams. . .
But that hurts the players who could've had a bigger contract -> make more money -> possibly live with their idols from back when they watched BW.
I mean there is even too many teams now as it is, when the merging happens I see some KeSPA and some Gom teams dying and I don't even think that it is a bad thing as it will stiffen competition and will make us viewers have higher quality games (you could argue that this doesn't benefit the players but the best players and rolemodels should have first priority in my head).
fine, it would be bad if the kespa teams buy all gom teams etc ... so it will be a fine agreement ! slayers not being part is np slayers has enough money to not scare them xD
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
I think EG and Liquid should be part of the federation, don't they? It would be kind of weird to see this, but i'm not sure it's impossible because of this agreement.
no its all gom teams expect slayers
On August 08 2012 17:05 Iplaythings wrote: [...] Seems like M18M was the only one who got away in time >.> [...]
nonon M18M is from ACE, ACE will be disband and take NO new players, sowhile all players will leave ace as normal after their military services and then can decide where to go because they are free agents then
There goes the freedom of players to switch teams.
As SC2 short history have shown not all teams are awesome, and switching teams is one of ways of dealing with that. And now all players are stuck for a year? Jesus.
On August 08 2012 17:06 CoR wrote: fine, it would be bad if the kespa teams buy all gom teams etc ... so it will be a fine agreement ! slayers not being part is np slayers has enough money to not scare them xD
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
I think EG and Liquid should be part of the federation, don't they? It would be kind of weird to see this, but i'm not sure it's impossible because of this agreement.
On August 08 2012 17:05 Iplaythings wrote: [...] Seems like M18M was the only one who got away in time >.> [...]
nonon M18M is from ACE, ACE will be disband and take NO new players, sowhile all players will leave ace as normal after their military services and then can decide where to go because they are free agents then
Yeah but that a player such as M18M who probally were unable to receive a healthy conctract from the KeSPA teams instead join team Light which is perfect for his career as it give him a chance to perform for a broader audience.
But please tell me who a player who is in a similar position to M18M, because I doubt the lower pack of the KeSPA progamers get much more than free food and a place to stay for their efforts
On August 08 2012 17:16 Iplaythings wrote: But please tell me who a player who is in a similar position to M18M, because I doubt the lower pack of the KeSPA progamers get much more than free food and a place to stay for their efforts
Really? Don't they all get a decent salary? If not, then kespa is not that much more well off than some of the gom teams. Hrmm.
Seems like a prudent decision to me. My only concern is the length. October 2013 is a looooooong time away. For the inevitable struggling teams which should die off naturally, they're going to linger a bit longer than they should.
I think overall the benefits outweight the cons. We need to trust that the Elephant will take 6-12 months to turn into Dumbo and take flight so all in all i'm fine with this.
- GSTL teams get corporate sponsors like Kespa teams - GOM players get Kespa progamer licences - Kespa players close the gap - Long term everything will be like in Brood War with a united Kespa/eSports Fed. on top and two big tournaments (GOM sort of replacing MBC)
On August 08 2012 17:16 Iplaythings wrote: But please tell me who a player who is in a similar position to M18M, because I doubt the lower pack of the KeSPA progamers get much more than free food and a place to stay for their efforts
Really? Don't they all get a decent salary? If not, then kespa is not that much more well off than some of the gom teams. Hrmm.
The top players on the team do, but all the practice partners and B-teamers get frighteningly little.
When Action played for eSTRO he didnt have a salary at all despite being their best or second best player - that's the reality of progaming in Korea, unless you are at the top of the pack you won't make anything CLOSE to flash's salary.
Take, I wouldn't bad that suprised if the EG guys get more than someone like Snow (middle pack player)
On August 08 2012 17:16 Iplaythings wrote: But please tell me who a player who is in a similar position to M18M, because I doubt the lower pack of the KeSPA progamers get much more than free food and a place to stay for their efforts
Really? Don't they all get a decent salary? If not, then kespa is not that much more well off than some of the gom teams. Hrmm.
The top players on the team do, but all the practice partners and B-teamers get frighteningly little.
When Action played for eSTRO he didnt have a salary at all despite being their best or second best player - that's the reality of progaming in Korea, unless you are at the top of the pack you won't make anything CLOSE to flash's salary.
Take, I wouldn't bad that suprised if the EG guys get more than someone like Snow (middle pack player)
Dude, Action not getting paid in _eSTRO_ is not the reality of progaming in Korea. They were fucking poor as hell, I don't think they even had a maid? IIRC when Ret was there he had to clean the dishes and stuff because he was the lowest ranked player inhouse or something like that?
On August 08 2012 17:35 Na_Dann_Ma_GoGo wrote: Uh, I understand that it can be very beneficial in some ways.
But damn that's just such a crazy long time. And I mean there are a couple folks making decisions for a lot of players now...
This.
New game, new slate.
What can they really do if some of these guys ''retire'' in bw and then just go play sc2 on their own and perhaps get picked up by foreign teams etc? I very much doubt that a prior bw contract would have something against that in it.
I think this is a very good decision for everyone. I hope one day the scene will be massive and truly colaborative and the game develops into a direction where it actually can compare with the competetiveness of bw.
On August 08 2012 17:16 Iplaythings wrote: But please tell me who a player who is in a similar position to M18M, because I doubt the lower pack of the KeSPA progamers get much more than free food and a place to stay for their efforts
Really? Don't they all get a decent salary? If not, then kespa is not that much more well off than some of the gom teams. Hrmm.
The top players on the team do, but all the practice partners and B-teamers get frighteningly little.
When Action played for eSTRO he didnt have a salary at all despite being their best or second best player - that's the reality of progaming in Korea, unless you are at the top of the pack you won't make anything CLOSE to flash's salary.
Take, I wouldn't bad that suprised if the EG guys get more than someone like Snow (middle pack player)
Dude, Action not getting paid in _eSTRO_ is not the reality of progaming in Korea. They were fucking poor as hell, I don't think they even had a maid? IIRC when Ret was there he had to clean the dishes and stuff because he was the lowest ranked player inhouse or something like that?
The dishwashing is just normal for newer players in the team, Flash even had to do that when they first arrived at the team.. That is just part of the culture in the team that the newbies get the chores.. I don't know if it also has something to do with "in-house ranking" etc.. I'm just mentioning Action because other players on eSTRO had a salary And I bet you that the B-teamers are getting close to nothing which is a really sad reality of progaming, I doubt it functions that way in foreign teams since their practice partners is an online ladder system, if KeSPA players had it their way they wouldn't practice on the ladder but only inhouse and KeSPA team to KeSPA team practice (like, KT Rolster is known to practice alot with Wongjin Stars)
On August 08 2012 17:42 Azera wrote: What if someone quits an eSports Fed. team, and gets picked up by a KeSPA team after?
Free agents don't seem to be affected by this. For instance, I think Crank could join a KeSPA team. Of course, if there's nothing like a "gentlemen's agreement" besides what have been signed.
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
I'm assuming that Kespa teams just won't sign non-kespa players and the ESF teams won't sign Kespa or former Kespa players.
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
I'm assuming that Kespa teams just won't sign non-kespa players and the ESF teams won't sign Kespa or former Kespa players.
Perhaps. I think in the ROOT.MajOr announcement, Catz claimed that MajOr tried to get onto a KeSPA team but couldn't.
Nevertheless, I wonder what they're going to do with discharged Ace players.
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
I'm assuming that Kespa teams just won't sign non-kespa players and the ESF teams won't sign Kespa or former Kespa players.
Perhaps. I think in the ROOT.MajOr announcement, Catz claimed that MajOr tried to get onto a KeSPA team but couldn't.
Nevertheless, I wonder what they're going to do with discharged Ace players.
in M18M you see its possible they join foreign teams and perhaps they can decide where to go the thing is also more a "buyout" protection, i guess if someone finished his contract and NOT want stay there anymore he find a way
On August 08 2012 17:05 Iplaythings wrote: I mean there is even too many teams now as it is, when the merging happens I see some KeSPA and some Gom teams dying and I don't even think that it is a bad thing as it will stiffen competition and will make us viewers have higher quality games (you could argue that this doesn't benefit the players but the best players and rolemodels should have first priority in my head).
Well obviously for the lesser sponsored GOM teams e.g. HoSeo fans this contract is a good thing. Imagine if there was a possibility of Flash and other KT players being poached and it eventually shutting down. Sure, they'll all still play but it's just not the same anymore as a fan. Unless you were more of a fan of individuals than teams from the start.
Makes sense, saves GOM. Curious how sponsors will look when this ends, considering this is a lengthy amount of time. Sponsors haven't really been rolling in unless you're IM.
I really hope all of the players were informed well ahead of time. Knowing Kespa though, it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't say anything to the players.
On August 08 2012 14:27 EtherealDeath wrote: Hmm so what about 1) Leaving a GSTL team, being teamless for a while, then joining a kespa team (as opposed to direct transfer), or 2) Join a foreign team, contract ends after a few months, join kespa team 3) Go teamless, get a personal sponsor for a while, join kespa team
And the other way around as well.
Or does it mean the moment you get slapped with the GSTL tag, you can't join a Kespa team regardless, even if you leave the team in the meanwhile?
I think this is still possible. M18M just joined LighT, and I'm pretty a GSTL team can hire him later.
Does this mean that Stephano, Nani or a foreigner of that caliber could be recruited into a kespa team? I mean Stephano would rolfstomp pro league that isn't even an opinion but fact.
On August 08 2012 19:30 FFW_Rude wrote: Correct me if i'm wrong but ... Players had not been ask the question didn't they ?
It feals like Kespa is deciding once again for the players. But maybe i'm wrong and didn't understand quite right the OP.
I feal a player association is needed when i see threads like this. But again. Maybe my english is too bad to understand and i'm being paranoid.
This is good for the players
No, this is good for the teams, not for the individual players (as in nothing changed for the players really, but they could've easily had a more beneficial agreement).
Allright I feel like I'm complaining too much, gonna exit this thread now
This is kinda odd. I don't know much about Kespa, but they must have some very odd fundementals or power complexes, because this is just weird. Why couldn't you trade players from the same league?
On August 08 2012 19:57 MonDeW wrote: This is kinda odd. I don't know much about Kespa, but they must have some very odd fundementals or power complexes, because this is just weird. Why couldn't you trade players from the same league?
For once I don't think it's odd at all. It benefits both GOM and KeSPA.
GOM teams have an advantage in skill/experience in SC2, so poaching could happen mutually. Basically a one year moratorium on player transfers is not a big deal.
I wonder what will end up happening to SlayerS? I mean, BoxeR MADE SKT.... It'd feel REALLY weird watching a SlayerS vs SKT match with BoxeR and iloveoov on opposite ends of the field.
On August 08 2012 20:31 ShatterZer0 wrote: I wonder what will end up happening to SlayerS? I mean, BoxeR MADE SKT.... It'd feel REALLY weird watching a SlayerS vs SKT match with BoxeR and iloveoov on opposite ends of the field.
Eh, while he was the face of SKT since their acquirement of 4U, his influence pretty much diminished within the company after he left for the military.
I think it's a good agreement for both parties. This way, Proleague won't be flooded by eSF players looking for easy success and money. It also protects the attractiveness of GSL since the best players will stay in it.
I think KeSPA hopes its players will be better than eSF players in October 2013
I see why this is good for gsl but i fail to understand what kespa gets from this. Now their players have to own. If not, No one will be left by 2013 to watch them.
On August 08 2012 20:52 skeldark wrote: I see why this is good for gsl but i fail to understand what kespa gets from this. Now their players have to own. If not, No one will be left by 2013 to watch them.
Well, it avoid the awkward situation and teams dump BW players and try to poach players, and kills ability for BW players to transit.
And if KeSPA historically have a really high view of themselves, so it probably never occurred to them that their player might not keep up.
On August 08 2012 20:52 skeldark wrote: I see why this is good for gsl but i fail to understand what kespa gets from this. Now their players have to own. If not, No one will be left by 2013 to watch them.
Well, it avoid the awkward situation and teams dump BW players and try to poach players, and kills ability for BW players to transit.
And if KeSPA historically have a really high view of themselves, so it probably never occurred to them that their player might not keep up.
That's actually reasonable. Thought KeSPA would just put some restraints on their players like they like to do but this way i am quite confident it helps both partys .
Seems reasonable tbh, not having it could upset the balance between the sides really easily if they aren't at an even playing field. Which they would be on by Oct 2013
I'm not really sure what'll come out of this but I'm hoping for only good things and hopefully a better future for Starcraft II and e-sports in general.
I actually think this agreement is good for the kespa players, if the kespa players diden't turn out to be as good at sc2 right away, why woulden't kespa hire teamless code a players instead ? this gives them time to catch up.
On August 08 2012 20:52 skeldark wrote: I see why this is good for gsl but i fail to understand what kespa gets from this. Now their players have to own. If not, No one will be left by 2013 to watch them.
Well, it avoid the awkward situation and teams dump BW players and try to poach players, and kills ability for BW players to transit.
And if KeSPA historically have a really high view of themselves, so it probably never occurred to them that their player might not keep up.
It's legit because of their strict rules and policy. Make no mistake, we'll see a lot of these players thrive in HotS. It's a very good notion for both sides in fact and people will watch.
When was the last time we had a foriegn player in KeSPA?
it's not cause kespa didnt allow them, it's cause they sucked. now stop being such a prick and blaming kespa for everything, including aliens landing on earth and making crop signs.
I think this is an excellent decision, even though it doesn't seem so at first. The OP makes a great point of KeSPA just buying out SC2 players that are already well developed, instead of focusing time onto honing the skills of their BW players. As well as vice versa I suppose. That way we'll have more teams in the SC2 scene, not just a few power houses. Although does this apply to foreign teams as well? We just saw LighT recently pick up M18M.
This makes sense, it'll allow everyone to continue to grow and develop. Everyone will be able to trade again a little after Heart of the Swarm comes out which will make things interesting. (Assuming it'll be out mid 2013)
On August 08 2012 22:53 Sovano wrote: I think this is an excellent decision, even though it doesn't seem so at first. The OP makes a great point of KeSPA just buying out SC2 players that are already well developed, instead of focusing time onto honing the skills of their BW players. As well as vice versa I suppose. That way we'll have more teams in the SC2 scene, not just a few power houses. Although does this apply to foreign teams as well? We just saw LighT recently pick up M18M.
No it does not apply to foreign scene. It's just between KeSPA and eSF, which is just IM, MVP, ST, Prime, TSL, NSH. I forgot was FXO included or not, since it was foreign owned.
On August 08 2012 22:42 Irrational_Animal wrote: Still going to be interesting whether players like MC or Taeja will be poached by the Kespa teams.
I think MC have a huge salary already, and he loves global tournament too much to go to KeSPA. Taeja on the other hand...
I find it very hard to believe that Taeja would bail and go to a kespa team. He is having the most success out of his entire career with Liquid right now.
On August 08 2012 22:53 Sovano wrote: I think this is an excellent decision, even though it doesn't seem so at first. The OP makes a great point of KeSPA just buying out SC2 players that are already well developed, instead of focusing time onto honing the skills of their BW players. As well as vice versa I suppose. That way we'll have more teams in the SC2 scene, not just a few power houses. Although does this apply to foreign teams as well? We just saw LighT recently pick up M18M.
No it does not apply to foreign scene. It's just between KeSPA and eSF, which is just IM, MVP, ST, Prime, TSL, NSH. I forgot was FXO included or not, since it was foreign owned.
On August 08 2012 22:53 Sovano wrote: I think this is an excellent decision, even though it doesn't seem so at first. The OP makes a great point of KeSPA just buying out SC2 players that are already well developed, instead of focusing time onto honing the skills of their BW players. As well as vice versa I suppose. That way we'll have more teams in the SC2 scene, not just a few power houses. Although does this apply to foreign teams as well? We just saw LighT recently pick up M18M.
No it does not apply to foreign scene. It's just between KeSPA and eSF, which is just IM, MVP, ST, Prime, TSL, NSH. I forgot was FXO included or not, since it was foreign owned.
Pretty sure FXOBoss was one of the guys that made ESF, so FXO is definitely a part of that as well.
On August 08 2012 22:53 Sovano wrote: I think this is an excellent decision, even though it doesn't seem so at first. The OP makes a great point of KeSPA just buying out SC2 players that are already well developed, instead of focusing time onto honing the skills of their BW players. As well as vice versa I suppose. That way we'll have more teams in the SC2 scene, not just a few power houses. Although does this apply to foreign teams as well? We just saw LighT recently pick up M18M.
No it does not apply to foreign scene. It's just between KeSPA and eSF, which is just IM, MVP, ST, Prime, TSL, NSH. I forgot was FXO included or not, since it was foreign owned.
Pretty sure FXOBoss was one of the guys that made ESF, so FXO is definitely a part of that as well.
This will hurt KeSPA (league) and help KeSPA (players). So they will keep their roster of BW pros and hope they all develop into great sc2 players? The OVERALL level of sc2 in KeSPA will be far from GSTL's level until the ban is lifted. This move is terrible for popularization of sc2 in Korea. Even without the ban its not like KeSPA teams will cut any of their star players, only refresh some of their lower shelf players to help in team leagues and be practice partners for Flash, Jaedong, ect. This may explain the huge fluctuation of Koreans to foreign teams though. I bet NHSO, FXO, and TSL are jumping up and down now.
It's a matter of pride. KeSPA teams wouldnt try to poach any players cuz they believe their legacy, regimes and conglomerate sponsors will make the best players in no time. I believe that too. This agreement is to make that determination clear and, as you guys have pointed out, a mean to help protect GSL teams
It protects the Kespa players but it also stops the sc2 pros to get more money or even a salery at all from the Kespa teams. In my eyes this is far to restrictive but i assume that is how Korean culture works.
When was the last time we had a foriegn player in KeSPA?
it's not cause kespa didnt allow them, it's cause they sucked. now stop being such a prick and blaming kespa for everything, including aliens landing on earth and making crop signs.
On top of that, it wasn't even that long ago lol
IdrA was on a kespa team for the first half of 2010
KeSPA teams will not match GOM teams, not in 2013, for sure. KeSPA may develop a few BW aces, but considering they allready lost a lot of mid-range players that transitioned to SC2 early, and the fact that GOM teams got a number of new, reasonably young and high potantial players, that will most probably get into main competition in 2013, i do not see how KeSpa teams will keep up without influx of new players.
On August 09 2012 00:16 naastyOne wrote: KeSPA teams will not match GOM teams, not in 2013, for sure. KeSPA may develop a few BW aces, but considering they allready lost a lot of mid-range players that transitioned to SC2 early, and the fact that GOM teams got a number of new, reasonably young and high potantial players, that will most probably get into main competition in 2013, i do not see how KeSpa teams will keep up without influx of new players.
What Reality are you living in where only kespa BW aces can compete at SC2? TBLS is posting really average results overall where as new and old blood are doing fine.
On August 08 2012 23:48 AhOhitzXray wrote: its just so the kespa players will be protected until they become good at sc2
This is protection for the GSTL teams. The Kespa teams are far more established, better funded and far more prestigious.
Teams like Startale and IM, who have done a lot of good work for SC2 don't want their players jumping ship to someone who's late to the party.
Not sure if this applies to ex-oGs members. I'm sure there are a few that fall into the gray area between Kespa and GSTL teams.
edit: Startale and IM might be bad example since they seem to be doing well sponsorship wise with Red Bull and LG but think teams like old Zenex or NSHS, some Kespa teams could very well swallow them whole if this agreement was not in place.
On August 08 2012 23:17 Cattlecruiser wrote: This will hurt KeSPA (league) and help KeSPA (players). So they will keep their roster of BW pros and hope they all develop into great sc2 players? The OVERALL level of sc2 in KeSPA will be far from GSTL's level until the ban is lifted. This move is terrible for popularization of sc2 in Korea. Even without the ban its not like KeSPA teams will cut any of their star players, only refresh some of their lower shelf players to help in team leagues and be practice partners for Flash, Jaedong, ect. This may explain the huge fluctuation of Koreans to foreign teams though. I bet NHSO, FXO, and TSL are jumping up and down now.
I see what you are saying, BUT I was under the impression that the real strength of the broodwar teams and KeSPA is the players? Flash, JD etc had transcended the team they were/are on and become a brand in their own right? I thought that was was kept BW alive for so long in Korea. Maybe someone can clarify as I'm fairly new to SC compared to the veterans on the forums, but that's the impression I got anyway.
Interesting...hopefully after a year the KeSPA teams will have developed to the point where they can really challenge the Gom teams. I do assume the two can still compete against each other, right? It would be a shame to see only Gom players in GSL, or vice versa with Proleague/OSL.
As an aside, is GomTV known as Esports Federation? That's literally the first I've heard of any such group.
On August 08 2012 23:17 Cattlecruiser wrote: This will hurt KeSPA (league) and help KeSPA (players). So they will keep their roster of BW pros and hope they all develop into great sc2 players? The OVERALL level of sc2 in KeSPA will be far from GSTL's level until the ban is lifted. This move is terrible for popularization of sc2 in Korea. Even without the ban its not like KeSPA teams will cut any of their star players, only refresh some of their lower shelf players to help in team leagues and be practice partners for Flash, Jaedong, ect. This may explain the huge fluctuation of Koreans to foreign teams though. I bet NHSO, FXO, and TSL are jumping up and down now.
I see what you are saying, BUT I was under the impression that the real strength of the broodwar teams and KeSPA is the players? Flash, JD etc had transcended the team they were/are on and become a brand in their own right? I thought that was was kept BW alive for so long in Korea. Maybe someone can clarify as I'm fairly new to SC compared to the veterans on the forums, but that's the impression I got anyway.
The strength of Kespa teams is the long standing relationships with big sponsors. Sponsors know they are professional as fuck and can be trusted with their money. The Kespa players are the reason why Blizzard is interested. They are hoping that if Kespa players can switch over, eventually the many fans will follow and SC2 will be closer in popularity to BW, at least in Korea.
GSL players are basically losing out an entire year where they could make more money on a Kespa team. Given how quickly SC2 moves that is HUGE and you honestly have to wonder how much input players had in this decision. Sucks for the players and this is just delaying the inevitable where Kespa buys out the best players due to having more resources. There is going to be consolidation and they've just pushed the date back arbitrarily. Basically this has just bought the GSL teams until October 2013 to get to the level of Kespa teams resources. Good luck with that. I see 2-3 GSL teams surviving with good enough players and then being swallowed up by Kespa for a 10 team Proleague.
So, to clarify, to play in the Kespa leagues without having previously been qualified for GSL, a player would have to play in a courage tournament like in BW?
I think this is good for both sides. It keeps Kespa from buying out the eF's players and keeps the current Kespa players from being replaced by those bought-out eF players.
I'm cool with the time frame also. When HOTS comes out we are going to see a natural readjustment of the "top" players anyways as some will be better at HOTS than they are at WOL. The Kespa players will now have the entire year to learn HOTS while eF adjusts from WOL to HOTS.
I'm excited about the next year. It will be like Beta with new crazy strats and unexpected cheese on the pro level while the meta-game forms it's self (not as extreme as Beta, mind you). New pro players will emerge as they will be better at HOTS tactics and strats. This agreement will add much-needed stability to the "chaos" that HOTS will bring.
Well, it seems to be a good idea, but the eSport Federation is mainly composed by korean teams, right ? So, is a draft or stuff like that between a Kespa team and a foreign team is possible ?
Plus, somehting that I absolutely dislike is the licence stuff. Basically, Kespa is like "well, your players have been playing at a very high level for 2 years, but for us they're not professionnal players, even if they're under contracts". I do feel that eSport Federation has been screwed on this :/
On August 09 2012 01:19 Hrrrrm wrote: Basically this has just bought the GSL teams until October 2013 to get to the level of Kespa teams resources. Good luck with that. I see 2-3 GSL teams surviving with good enough players and then being swallowed up by Kespa for a 10 team Proleague.
It goes both ways. It also gives the Kespa teams time to catch up in skill to the GSL teams. Think of it this way. Kespa teams want time to see what they have as far as SC2 talent on their teams so they do not get rid of potential great players for the sake of signing big name GSL players. GSL teams want to catch up in sponsorships to that of Kespa teams so they don't lose their already great players. Allowing programer licenses goes a long way towards that.
A years timeframe gives both enough time to do this. It's really a mutually beneficial relationship. As a bonus, those of us who enjoy the team aspect of SC2 get to root on our teams with their current players. Wins all around I say.
On August 09 2012 01:22 TheGGparadox wrote: So, to clarify, to play in the Kespa leagues without having previously been qualified for GSL, a player would have to play in a courage tournament like in BW?
edit: Oh, you mean without ever been in GSL? Then yes.
But for those who've been in the GSL, from the article:
"Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them."
So most likely all legitimately good GSL players are going to get Kespa licence without any additional effort, except making an application and participating in a Kespa seminar for professional etiquette.
On August 09 2012 01:22 TheGGparadox wrote: So, to clarify, to play in the Kespa leagues without having previously been qualified for GSL, a player would have to play in a courage tournament like in BW?
From the article:
"Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them."
So no, most likely all legitimately good GSL players are going to get Kespa licence without any additional effort, except making an application and participating in a Kespa seminar for professional etiquette.
That's not what he asked. He asked about player who without having previously been qualified for GSL.
On August 09 2012 01:22 TheGGparadox wrote: So, to clarify, to play in the Kespa leagues without having previously been qualified for GSL, a player would have to play in a courage tournament like in BW?
From the article:
"Meanwhile, a pro gamer license given by KeSPA will be distributed to current StarCraft 2 players. Any players previously qualified in GSL Code S and Code A can opt to apply for Progamer status, and once the required professionalism seminars are completed, a Progamer license for StarCraft 2 will be awarded to them."
So no, most likely all legitimately good GSL players are going to get Kespa licence without any additional effort, except making an application and participating in a Kespa seminar for professional etiquette.
That's not what he asked. He asked about player who without having previously been qualified for GSL.
Saw it right after posting, and edited, thanks.
Interesting follow-up would be - shouldn't Courage = Code A preliminary, so shouldn't GOM give advantage for Code A to players who've won a Kespa courage in SC2?
This seems way too long a time... In a few months we'll see Kespa players participating in GSL and we see a mixed OSL already, so why keep the teams artificially separated? I could understand keeping it separate until Hots is out to give some time to sort everything out, but so long?
On August 09 2012 02:46 ACrow wrote: This seems way too long a time... In a few months we'll see Kespa players participating in GSL and we see a mixed OSL already, so why keep the teams artificially separated? I could understand keeping it separate until Hots is out to give some time to sort everything out, but so long?
As it's already been stated plenty of times throughout the thread.. Kespa players need the comfort that their jobs are safe as they train and catch up in skill with the GSL players while GSL teams need time to acquire some serious sponsorships so they can compete with the funding Kespa teams have. It's a solid mutually beneficial agreement.
Also I don't think most the fans want teams to start mixing already. The 'Kespa players vs E-sports federation players' dynamic is sure to attract more viewers.
So foreign teams don't count since they aren't in esf(save fxo).
What is stopping teams from using foriegn teams as a medium? Why can't a Kespa player go to a foreign team then an esf team? Example: Let's say Jangbi wants to join Prime. Can't he join a foriegn team like EG (thus not being a Kespa player) and then join Prime?
I wonder how similar this situation and the future between eF and Kespa is to American Football or Major League Baseball. American Football and MLB both became what they are today due to different organizations merging and/or competing directly with each other to choose a "World Champion."
Just think of the possibility in just a few years there being a yearly event pitting the best of eF against the best of Kespa. It would be EPIC!
On August 09 2012 03:14 Flossy wrote: So foreign teams don't count since they aren't in esf(save fxo).
What is stopping teams from using foriegn teams as a medium? Why can't a Kespa player go to a foreign team then an esf team? Example: Let's say Jangbi wants to join Prime. Can't he join a foriegn team like EG (thus not being a Kespa player) and then join Prime?
The rules aren't that retarded. Obviously shit will hit the fan if a stunt like that is pulled. Any players that were still playing for Kespa teams while the switch-over happened is not allowed on a foreign team until Oct 2013. You don't have to take it so literal.
great move if the statement is to be fully believed, makes sense for all the right reasons. I'm also excited by the fact that we will have two Korean leagues to follow with different skill levels, it will be cool to see the Kespa players develop in their own environment.
I am most impressed by KeSPa selling this solution to their Sponsors.
Think about it from their point of view. Why should a company like Samsung or SK Telecom literally pay millions a year for potentially sub-par players which might very well be replaced/sacked comes October. What is in it for them?
From a purely business standpoint they should have done the exact opposite: buy the best GSL players, keep the few known figureheads from BW and bargain everybody's salary down ("SC2 is not big enough yet").
Imagine the next four OSL winners were all from IM or StarTale. People would be wearing their "Red Bull" and "LG" t-shirts and nobody would care about those second-rate "Samsung guys". How could you explain this to the CEO of Samsung? "Well, we know you have invested millions into ESPORT over the years and that was very nice of you. But you see, we accepted this Gentleman's agreement. And that is why you will have to bear with your loss of publicity. Ok?"
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
point 1. EG are merely a gaming clubs. KeSPA teams are big ass Korean corporations or even conglomerates who take their players to Hawaii for vacation. So plz no EG.[insert KeSPA player]. thats stupid point 2. KeSPA buying (ex)GSL players will be them admitting defeat that their players suck. Thats not gonna happen
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
I dunno bout the pride part but yeah soulkey makes more money on his korean team then he would on a foreign team. The kespa teams all get good salaries (the good players obviously, I believe the new players get like 10-12k a year salaries from what I read in a magazine a few years ago but dont' know if that's still true today).
Give the KeSPA players time to adjust sounds like a good idea. Sure most of them have the raw mechanical skill to become code-S champions but as we've seen this game is more about tactics and split-second decisions rather than mechanical mastery. I fully expect a few of the KeSPA players to emerge as "unbeatables" in a few months when they figure out the quirks in the game. With new "best player of race X" emerging and falling rather fast this says to me the game is still being figured out.
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
Why not? I should think that a player like Huk or Idra makes more money, as salary, than 90% of the KeSPA players. But maybe you have sources that a lot of people doesn't have. After all Boxer had more salary (personal sponsorship) than Flash, I have read.
...And what has pride to do with it? This sounds like speculation or maybe wishful thinking.
If you could cite some sources to these claims I would be very grateful.
On August 09 2012 03:19 EagleShade wrote: I wonder how similar this situation and the future between eF and Kespa is to American Football or Major League Baseball. American Football and MLB both became what they are today due to different organizations merging and/or competing directly with each other to choose a "World Champion."
Just think of the possibility in just a few years there being a yearly event pitting the best of eF against the best of Kespa. It would be EPIC!
I like to think of KeSPA and eSports Fed as the NFL and AFL (or their successor conferences NFC and AFC) of Starcraft. Now we just need a new team tournament for GSTL and PL teams to function as the SuperBowl of Starcraft.
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
Well, if foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa does, what about a Kespa team buying Taeja or Puma?
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
Why not? I should think that a player like Huk or Idra makes more money, as salary, than 90% of the KeSPA players. But maybe you have sources that a lot of people doesn't have. After all Boxer had more salary (personal sponsorship) than Flash, I have read.
...And what has pride to do with it? This sounds like speculation or maybe wishful thinking.
If you could cite some sources to these claims I would be very grateful.
Good luck marketing any Kespa player outside the top 10% more successfully that you would HuK or IdrA.
On August 09 2012 03:34 Celimas wrote: As far as I can tell... EG can still buy the best KeSPA players or KeSPA teams can buy players like Taeja on foreign teams?
Can't wait for EG.Soulkey
lol... Sorry but foreign teams can't offer more than Kespa teams do, nor will Kespa players leave a Kespa team to join a foreign one out of pride.
Why not? I should think that a player like Huk or Idra makes more money, as salary, than 90% of the KeSPA players. But maybe you have sources that a lot of people doesn't have. After all Boxer had more salary (personal sponsorship) than Flash, I have read.
...And what has pride to do with it? This sounds like speculation or maybe wishful thinking.
If you could cite some sources to these claims I would be very grateful.
Never heard about Tossgirl crying when she lost to Idra? Koreans know they are the best and losing to foreigners is a big deal. So you can see how they probably prefer to train together rather than with foreigners on a foreign team. I don't get your point with Boxer, he made his fame and fortune as a KeSPA player.
for now, i think the reasoning is to stop one organization from taking all of the talent while they are both establishing their role in korea through the next year
On August 08 2012 14:55 Advantageous wrote: holy crap? 2013?! so after HotS comes out? and does this mean M18M's trade would be the only trade thats valid?
On August 09 2012 03:14 Flossy wrote: So foreign teams don't count since they aren't in esf(save fxo).
What is stopping teams from using foreign teams as a medium? Why can't a Kespa player go to a foreign team then an esf team? Example: Let's say Jangbi wants to join Prime. Can't he join a foriegn team like EG (thus not being a Kespa player) and then join Prime?
Well okay......
Scenario Time:
1) Jangbi leaves Kespa in October 2) Jangbi signs a 1 yr contract with EG 3) Jangbi is released OCT 2013.
Plus Kespa isn't worried about losing players at the moment(Since non-are proven), their worried about GOM players coming in. And they have the power to reject any player attempting to enter a Kespa team.
People really need to stop bringing up EG as if it was ever possible they'd be recruiting big names. They are the biggest tuna fish, sure, but that doesn't mean much in the ocean. Players like Jaedong and Flash have million dollar contracts. I would go so far as to say that all foreign teams combined couldn't afford Flash. Kespa teams are on a completely different level.
Foreign teams arent on KESPA or this sc2 esports something something that korean teams made, so there's technically no stopping foreign teams from buying KESPA players when their licence/contract run out. ALTHOUGH, those players would be mist likely banned from KESPA nad GOM tournaments permanently if that happens.
People proposing stupid trades and work arounds; they won't work. It isn't like KeSPA and the federation is going to be like Oh you cute player you, I guess you got around our rules! If they try to pull a stunt off to work around the agreement, they'll probably have their license revoked, and not be able to play in most major tournaments.
No one in Esports is currently big enough to fuck with another major part of Esports and get away with it. No foreign team is going to risk pissing off Koreans and completely screwing themselves out of doing business in Korea. Pretend the agreement said "KeSPA players are isolated in their own little world until October of 2013, as far as teams are concerned.", because that is pretty much what this is.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
They don't mention coach-acquisition though and "retirements" - i.e. BW player retires from ACE, goes to SC2 team; or GSL player quits progaming and goes coach for a Kespa team. Such moves still seem possible.
On August 09 2012 06:40 Sikly wrote: People proposing stupid trades and work arounds; they won't work. It isn't like KeSPA and the federation is going to be like Oh you cute player you, I guess you got around our rules! If they try to pull a stunt off to work around the agreement, they'll probably have their license revoked, and not be able to play in most major tournaments.
No one in Esports is currently big enough to fuck with another major part of Esports and get away with it. No foreign team is going to risk pissing off Koreans and completely screwing themselves out of doing business in Korea. Pretend the agreement said "KeSPA players are isolated in their own little world until October of 2013, as far as teams are concerned.", because that is pretty much what this is.
Well KeSPA is a fucking terrible organization... I think most of us can agree on that... Not sure if this was bad or good though, we will see!!
I feel like if foreign organizations try something funny they'll just get kicked out of whatever GOM partnership they're in and not be allowed to compete in GSTl/GSL.
Why wouldn't they merge both leagues, so that eSports Federation can be recognized by the ministry of Culture, then it would be fair, i think. Hope to see good games, surprises, and new strategies ! I want to see KeSPA players in GSL !
On August 09 2012 05:00 Mohdoo wrote: People really need to stop bringing up EG as if it was ever possible they'd be recruiting big names. They are the biggest tuna fish, sure, but that doesn't mean much in the ocean. Players like Jaedong and Flash have million dollar contracts. I would go so far as to say that all foreign teams combined couldn't afford Flash. Kespa teams are on a completely different level.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
They don't mention coach-acquisition though and "retirements" - i.e. BW player retires from ACE, goes to SC2 team; or GSL player quits progaming and goes coach for a Kespa team. Such moves still seem possible.
Liquid and EG aren't ESF afiak? Or do all GSTL teams fall under this agreement?
On August 09 2012 06:28 MooMooMugi wrote: 14 months of locked in teams, I'm okay with that
No it is a 14 month barrier between two sets of teams. If SKT wanted to get a player from Team 8 they could do it. If a player from Prime wanted to join Slayers after their contract expires, he could do it. If SKT wanted to get that same player from prime instead of team 8 this would stop that.
On August 08 2012 14:31 figq wrote: No EG.Flash vs Liquid`Jaedong anytime soon then.
They don't mention coach-acquisition though and "retirements" - i.e. BW player retires from ACE, goes to SC2 team; or GSL player quits progaming and goes coach for a Kespa team. Such moves still seem possible.
LiquidBisu yes though ; )
Are you talking about the real Bisu, or Crank? Because Crank and Sheth play together all the time (including right now), and Crank's looking for a foreign team ^^
Anyways, I guess this agreement is good for the e-sports community, although I'm surprised the agreement is going to last until next October.
On August 09 2012 06:40 Sikly wrote: People proposing stupid trades and work arounds; they won't work. It isn't like KeSPA and the federation is going to be like Oh you cute player you, I guess you got around our rules! If they try to pull a stunt off to work around the agreement, they'll probably have their license revoked, and not be able to play in most major tournaments.
No one in Esports is currently big enough to fuck with another major part of Esports and get away with it. No foreign team is going to risk pissing off Koreans and completely screwing themselves out of doing business in Korea. Pretend the agreement said "KeSPA players are isolated in their own little world until October of 2013, as far as teams are concerned.", because that is pretty much what this is.
this
there is likely a clause that states no current gsl team member can join a kespa team, or vice-versa, until 10/13.
If anything, this is bad for the GSL players, as their contracts will essentially be that of a "minor-league" contract compared to the monster contracts kespa can wield.
It's a good move to protect the current Kespa players and the non-kespa teams.
Non-kespa teams benefit because their players don't get 'bought out' by richer teams like SKT/KT
Kespa players don't get overshadowed because of recruiting more experienced GSL players. They get to keep their job and a chance to show them they can be competitive versus GSL players. It's essentially a 1 year grace period for them.
My prediction: In a few years, we may see some GSTL teams merging with the big korean teams. Heaps of top SC2 players would kill for a $50,000-$70,000 salary from KT/SKT
Wow, a lot of you guys are missing the big picture here. Kespa is being unselfish and doing something that's good for the e-sports in Korea, for once. This also highlights the failure of GOM to market the SC2 inside Korea in the past two years.
On August 09 2012 09:54 jellyjello wrote: Wow, a lot of you guys are missing the big picture here. Kespa is being unselfish and doing something that's good for the e-sports in Korea, for once. This also highlights the failure of GOM to market the SC2 inside Korea in the past two years.
I think they can see that if the GSL players all came over and the top BW players became uncompetitive we would see a huge decline in popularity, Kespa is trying to move all the BW fans onto SC2.
1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
2. You really think EG could afford to pay 400k for flashes salary? Yeah right not unless they dropped their whole roster and even then maybe not lol.. I bet it's the same with Jaedong as well.
hmmm so long... a lot can happen in that time..even 6 months would of been a long time!! still with HOTS coming out, I bet we will all be suprised how much of a even footing things will get... Cant wait! as long as they play many dual tournaments between them both!!!
"the Korean eSports Association (KeSPA) and eSports Federation cannot transfer players to each other."
What does this mean exactly? We all know that even without any PR "agreements" like this KeSPA isn't going to allow one of their players to up and join a non-kespa team without shunning them in Korea. And with foreigners soon to become irrelevant once the bw players have actually spent time in the game, the international scene will also become irrelevant. Meaning nobody is going anywhere, StarCraft is and will always be solely a Korean phenomenon.
We all know the same stuff will happen once the lock is lifted. GSL players have 2+ years advantage. Do you really think KeSPA players are so good that they can make that up in months? KeSPA players should have started when it was released... too bad they were only focused on the short term.
On August 10 2012 01:14 krogdog101 wrote: We all know the same stuff will happen once the lock is lifted. GSL players have 2+ years advantage. Do you really think KeSPA players are so good that they can make that up in months? KeSPA players should have started when it was released... too bad they were only focused on the short term.
yes, Realty and Roro already won a series vs gsl player
ps. i'm a sc2 fan at first not a BW elitist, but i'm able to recognise their strenght
On August 10 2012 01:14 krogdog101 wrote: We all know the same stuff will happen once the lock is lifted. GSL players have 2+ years advantage. Do you really think KeSPA players are so good that they can make that up in months? KeSPA players should have started when it was released... too bad they were only focused on the short term.
I think they can, but the title says Oct 2013.
And KeSPA was focused on the long term. Unfortunately, blizzard is focusing on the short term.
On August 09 2012 09:54 jellyjello wrote: Wow, a lot of you guys are missing the big picture here. Kespa is being unselfish and doing something that's good for the e-sports in Korea, for once. This also highlights the failure of GOM to market the SC2 inside Korea in the past two years.
I think they can see that if the GSL players all came over and the top BW players became uncompetitive we would see a huge decline in popularity, Kespa is trying to move all the BW fans onto SC2.
lolol no.
Kespa teams could easily buy out any player they wanted to. You think they couldn't buy out the likes of Taeja, DRG, MKP, etc. with the possibility of making GSL grand prize per year in salary alone (not counting sponsorship, endorsements, prize money, performance bonus, etc.)?
This is more to protect GSL players more than anything, mainly because everybody knows that if a team like SK wanted to, they could easily buy out any GSL players they wanted to, essentially killing off GOMTV's talent pool.
Kespa also understands that they will fail unless they can for the most part preserve the BW celebrities, and they need about a year probably before they are good enough to be at the very top of SC2. I support this wholeheartedly. If they went totally open now, the Jaedong, etc. fans would get disillusioned and their chance of BW fans transferring would greatly diminish.
I hope they won't renew the contract after Oct 2013. I think it's for the better atm but after that it will only harm the teams\players at the feature. Honestly we only want the best for the players and if a KeSPA team wants to hire them and the player wants it than why not? As a MKP fan I will be happy if he will join a KeSPa teams because they got a lot better experience with training players.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
I guess its a good thing tho, it'd be a nightmare to see all the gsl-teams being crushed under the heavy-weight kespa teams (as far as funding goes) o.O
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
Bring on real Free Agency please.
Well guess what, this isn't the US and this isn't part of the major league sports. Also most people would agree this is beneficial, which it is. GOM teams need sponsors and KeSPA teams need to catch up in skill.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
Bring on real Free Agency please.
Well guess what, this isn't the US and this isn't part of the major league sports. Also most people would agree this is beneficial, which it is. GOM teams need sponsors and KeSPA teams need to catch up in skill.
Oh, I'm well aware. Just because it isn't in the US doesn't mean it should be acceptable. Anything that restricts players from earning their real market value is bad for the sport, and that is exactly what this does.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
Bring on real Free Agency please.
Well guess what, this isn't the US and this isn't part of the major league sports. Also most people would agree this is beneficial, which it is. GOM teams need sponsors and KeSPA teams need to catch up in skill.
Oh, I'm well aware. Just because it isn't in the US doesn't mean it should be acceptable. Anything that restricts players from earning their real market value is bad for the sport, and that is exactly what this does.
Your pretty much asking to kill KeSPA players and GOM teams. Think of it like cap limits that most professional teams currently have; they are their to prevent teams like the Yankee's from literally buying every best player in the world because they just don't have the cap room to do that. That effectively hurts every top player, because they could be making more if the Yankees could buy them all out, potentially at least. But, if we allowed it, it would kill the sport, because no one in the world would be able to compete with them.
You really need to think about what your saying. If you can't change your "principles" for the benefit of everyone(including the players) than...I don't really know what to say. I guess I can be thankful the Korean's realize that this will massively help everyone, and don't just blindly stick to "principles". Besides, the BW players have shown immense dedication to the game of starcraft, they deserve a legitimate opportunity to adjust to SC2.
Hilariously, there is no salary cap in baseball. The Yankees very well could just buy everyone. I don't see how Free Agency hurts the players, as you say it will. All it does is reward skill - and top tier play should be the goal for every team and player.
Am I the only one who thinks KeSPA should just die with Brood War? They had their run, it was good, but questionable about a lot of things. GomTV has done everything right for the past 2-3 years, they have all the star power, the western world loves Gom. If these business that own KeSPA teams were smart, they would just move their teams to the SC2 league now that Brood War is done? I don't see the inherit draw KeSPA as an organization has in Korea. Its not like people who watch it don't know about GomTV. And it's not like TLBS + a few others have any auidience drawing power. It seems like better business for Samsung to just take their guys and put them in the Gom league.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
Bring on real Free Agency please.
Well guess what, this isn't the US and this isn't part of the major league sports. Also most people would agree this is beneficial, which it is. GOM teams need sponsors and KeSPA teams need to catch up in skill.
Oh, I'm well aware. Just because it isn't in the US doesn't mean it should be acceptable. Anything that restricts players from earning their real market value is bad for the sport, and that is exactly what this does.
It doesn't necessarily. Not to mention every major sporting organization has trade restrictions to help promote competition.
Also this is nothing like the collusion, at least as defined in the U.S.
On August 09 2012 14:04 Zennith wrote: 1: To those saying that that if a foreign team signed a Kespa player, GOM and Kespa would ban them from tournaments... guys, that would be fucking suicide. Lawsuits ahoy!
2: I promise you that EG could certainly afford Flash/JD whoever. Million dollar contracts? Hell fucking no.
3: This is basically collusion, and I really doubt it would be legal for organizations to do this, at least in the US. Think any major league sports in the US and Free Agency. Antitrust laws would make this really, really tenuous here. I don't know about Korean laws, of course.
What in the blue hell are you talking about lmao.
Uh, I'm saying that two organizations agreeing to restrict the rights of their players is (in the US) a violation of antitrust laws. I don't know about the Korean legal system, but all this does is essentially restrict the rights of the players who particpate in both GOM and KESPA. It hurts the players in favor of the larger organizations, which I'm pretty against on principle.
Bring on real Free Agency please.
Well guess what, this isn't the US and this isn't part of the major league sports. Also most people would agree this is beneficial, which it is. GOM teams need sponsors and KeSPA teams need to catch up in skill.
Oh, I'm well aware. Just because it isn't in the US doesn't mean it should be acceptable. Anything that restricts players from earning their real market value is bad for the sport, and that is exactly what this does.
You do realize that there is no such thing as Players Union in e-sports, right? There is nothing illegal about this.
On August 10 2012 06:46 Zennith wrote: Hilariously, there is no salary cap in baseball. The Yankees very well could just buy everyone. I don't see how Free Agency hurts the players, as you say it will. All it does is reward skill - and top tier play should be the goal for every team and player.
On August 10 2012 07:11 BanditX wrote: Am I the only one who thinks KeSPA should just die with Brood War? They had their run, it was good, but questionable about a lot of things. GomTV has done everything right for the past 2-3 years, they have all the star power, the western world loves Gom. If these business that own KeSPA teams were smart, they would just move their teams to the SC2 league now that Brood War is done? I don't see the inherit draw KeSPA as an organization has in Korea. Its not like people who watch it don't know about GomTV. And it's not like TLBS + a few others have any auidience drawing power. It seems like better business for Samsung to just take their guys and put them in the Gom league.
Yes you are definitely the odd one here. Enjoy your time in the fortress of solitude.
On August 10 2012 03:16 Zennith wrote: I just like how everyone ignores that this should be illegal. It's essentially collusion, restricting free agency.
The problem is there is nothing illegal about this.
On August 10 2012 03:16 Zennith wrote: I just like how everyone ignores that this should be illegal. It's essentially collusion, restricting free agency.
The problem is there is nothing illegal about this.
Not in Korea, no.
And to whoever said "tough, there's no player's union"... well, don't you think there should be?
And yes, the Luxury Tax exists in baseball. Still isn't a cap. Teams regularly exceed the Tax, including the Yankees, obviously enough. I just don't get how people support the teams and organizations over the players they represent.
This may protect some players and some teams for now, but it is just delaying the growth of the Starcraft 2 pro-scene. With the Brood War scene kaput, this seems like a last ditch effort to maintain sponsors for Kespa teams.
On August 10 2012 11:34 StarStruck wrote: I literally rolling my eyes.
Congrats bro. Very persuasive.
He's your brother? Damn I learned something new today!
It's only for a year, it's really not a big deal to have kespa/gsl players on their same teams so that GSL teams don't get screwed over and lose all their best players to kespa teams (trust me kespa teams have a lot more money then GSL teams and foreign teams).
This is good for both sides believe it or not to restrict it for a year.
On August 10 2012 11:34 StarStruck wrote: I literally rolling my eyes.
Congrats bro. Very persuasive.
He's your brother? Damn I learned something new today!
It's only for a year, it's really not a big deal to have kespa/gsl players on their same teams so that GSL teams don't get screwed over and lose all their best players to kespa teams (trust me kespa teams have a lot more money then GSL teams and foreign teams).
This is good for both sides believe it or not to restrict it for a year.
On August 10 2012 11:34 StarStruck wrote: I literally rolling my eyes.
Congrats bro. Very persuasive.
He's your brother? Damn I learned something new today!
It's only for a year, it's really not a big deal to have kespa/gsl players on their same teams so that GSL teams don't get screwed over and lose all their best players to kespa teams (trust me kespa teams have a lot more money then GSL teams and foreign teams).
This is good for both sides believe it or not to restrict it for a year.
But is it good for the players?
Does it matter? Are you going to start a riot? If they feel that it is the best for them, let it be.
people advocating this comparing it to a salary cap are ;\
I dunno about in Europe, but IMO salary caps are REALLY bad in US sports because you can cripple a team for YEARS based on how the cap is structured.
Teams in BW/Sc2 are nice and all, but individual players are much more important. teams work in real life because of associations like physical location/growing up watching a team on a whim. teams in bw/sc2 are irrelevant in that respect.
I see this contract thing as only being a bad thing that shouldnt belong in Sc2.
I believe its fair, Kespa shouldnt lose their stars because GomTv can offer them better training(more experienced players giving advice) and everything and at the same time, GomTv players shouldnt leave to join Kespa. I think in the long run both these leagues can exists, we can see rivalries between not only teams but leagues too, which would be cool. So you have it per divisons playing out, top kespa teams vs top gom teams. We dont need only 1 league, 2 leagues would be nice
On August 10 2012 11:34 StarStruck wrote: I literally rolling my eyes.
Congrats bro. Very persuasive.
He's your brother? Damn I learned something new today!
It's only for a year, it's really not a big deal to have kespa/gsl players on their same teams so that GSL teams don't get screwed over and lose all their best players to kespa teams (trust me kespa teams have a lot more money then GSL teams and foreign teams).
This is good for both sides believe it or not to restrict it for a year.
But is it good for the players?
Does it matter? Are you going to start a riot? If they feel that it is the best for them, let it be.
Are you suggesting that the players had a choice? I'm quite willing to bet that they didn't.
On August 10 2012 11:34 StarStruck wrote: I literally rolling my eyes.
Congrats bro. Very persuasive.
He's your brother? Damn I learned something new today!
It's only for a year, it's really not a big deal to have kespa/gsl players on their same teams so that GSL teams don't get screwed over and lose all their best players to kespa teams (trust me kespa teams have a lot more money then GSL teams and foreign teams).
This is good for both sides believe it or not to restrict it for a year.
But is it good for the players?
Does it matter? Are you going to start a riot? If they feel that it is the best for them, let it be.
Are you suggesting that the players had a choice? I'm quite willing to bet that they didn't.
I'd argue it is good for the players in a way. The separation of team lines at this point will give the Kespa players better opportunity to grow into SC2 in a safer environment, and will prevent absurdly wealthy teams from simply absorbing the top talent from everywhere else in the scene, meaning LG-IM's younger players still have Nestea and MVP to consult with, and likewise with other teams.
The players that will potentially suffer are the current GSL superstars who are skilled enough to be worth more money, but won't be allowed to move to the richer teams. However, within a year's time things will have stabilized more in terms of the skill gap between teams, and economy's of things will have shifted. It will give smaller teams opportunity to economically grow, and bigger teams opportunity to train their players to a higher skill level, so there will be less swapping around of players 1 year down the line than there would be if it were allowed right now.
How does this effect foreign teams? How many teams who have recruited Korean players (or even teams who haven't) are part of eSports Federation? Presumably TL is 'safe' as they've actually played in the GSTL as a team, where do teams like EG or Empire stand? Are Violet and Puma potentially attractive recruiting opportunities for fabulously wealthy Korean teams now?
On August 17 2012 10:07 8D wrote: But didn't Boxer just join SKT as a coach, or does that not count because he won't be playing for the team?
SlayerS didn't join the GSL team federation, I think, so I don't think this applies to them. It would also explain how Clide managed to join a Kespa team as coach as well.
EPT
