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If you have seen my other topic about which ladder maps need to go or if you haven't here you go.
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=354126
By now it is clear that people want new maps, but it seems they are light on suggestions and have no idea about the possibilities. The only maps people suggest are GSL maps. I suspect it is because these are the only other maps they have seen. Therefore this thread is designed to introduce SC2 general to a sample of all the maps that are out there. You can also vote if you think it has ladder potential.
There will be three distinct categories of maps. Past Map of the Month winners, ESV maps, and other maps by ESV members that don't have the ESV tag. Maps that have the ESV tag have generally gone through a fair amount of testing. Some more than others. I suggest you check out their Korean weekly and Grand Prix II to see the maps in action. Other maps by ESV members have potential in my mind because of their pedigree but have not received as much testing as official ESV maps. Finally Map of the Month contest winners have been vetted by some of the best mapmakers in the community and been voted the best for their respective month. The amount of testing on them is unknown.
Also any ESV member that wants to correct me about the things I said about your organization feel free.
To the maps.
MOTM winners
Dark Shines
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/IIIEU.jpg) Poll: Dark Shines. Ladder Potential?No (107) 70% Yes (45) 30% 152 total votes Your vote: Dark Shines. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Silver Sands
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/bUsRM.jpg) Poll: Silver Sands. Ladder Potential?Yes (110) 60% No (72) 40% 182 total votes Your vote: Silver Sands. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Doomsday
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/mSKjn.jpg) Poll: Doomsday. Ladder Potential?No (93) 62% Yes (57) 38% 150 total votes Your vote: Doomsday. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Peaks of Alamar
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/onLze.jpg) Poll: Peaks of Alamar. Ladder Potential?Yes (85) 54% No (71) 46% 156 total votes Your vote: Peaks of Alamar. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Firestorm
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rmmuG.jpg) Poll: Firestorm. Ladder Potential?No (105) 79% Yes (28) 21% 133 total votes Your vote: Firestorm. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Dodongo
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iHCFQ.jpg) Poll: Dodongo. Ladder Potential?No (89) 77% Yes (27) 23% 116 total votes Your vote: Dodongo. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Odin
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3Bly3l.jpg) Poll: Odin. Ladder Potential?Yes (93) 60% No (61) 40% 154 total votes Your vote: Odin. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
The Grid
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/fcDZrl.jpg) Poll: The Grid. Ladder Potential?Yes (117) 76% No (36) 24% 153 total votes Your vote: The Grid. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Rusty Cage
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6lTMX.jpg) Poll: Rusty Cage. Ladder Potential?No (86) 70% Yes (36) 30% 122 total votes Your vote: Rusty Cage. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Titanis
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/q91W4.jpg) Poll: Titanis. Ladder Potential?No (63) 53% Yes (55) 47% 118 total votes Your vote: Titanis. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
ESV maps
Khaydaria
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/o7Zuy.jpg) Poll: Khaydaria. Ladder Potential?Yes (111) 73% No (42) 27% 153 total votes Your vote: Khaydaria. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Abode
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/4cX0D.jpg) Poll: Abod. Ladder Potential?No (72) 64% Yes (40) 36% 112 total votes Your vote: Abod. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Serpent Sands
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/vSZqx.jpg) Poll: Serpent Sands. Ladder Potential?No (71) 63% Yes (42) 37% 113 total votes Your vote: Serpent Sands. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Deception
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/6e90C.jpg) Poll: Deception. Ladder Potential?No (74) 73% Yes (28) 27% 102 total votes Your vote: Deception. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Dragons of Eden
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/DPiPW.jpg) Poll: Dragons of Eden. Ladder Potential?No (66) 54% Yes (57) 46% 123 total votes Your vote: Dragons of Eden. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Spring
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Qvivq.jpg) Poll: Spring. Ladder Potential?Yes (99) 76% No (32) 24% 131 total votes Your vote: Spring. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Muspelheim
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Azb7O.jpg) Poll: Muspelheim. Ladder Potential?Yes (96) 74% No (33) 26% 129 total votes Your vote: Muspelheim. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Afterglow
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/x30hN.jpg) Poll: Afterglow. Ladder Potential?Yes (59) 60% No (40) 40% 99 total votes Your vote: Afterglow. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Vicious
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/iWQzh.jpg) Poll: Vicious. Ladder Potential?No (58) 58% Yes (42) 42% 100 total votes Your vote: Vicious. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Tanzanite
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/SYtyh.jpg) Poll: Tanzanite. Ladder Potential?Yes (72) 73% No (26) 27% 98 total votes Your vote: Tanzanite. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Discord
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/hIXGd.jpg) Poll: Discord. Ladder Potential?No (52) 64% Yes (29) 36% 81 total votes Your vote: Discord. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Frigid Pass
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/lEUc5.jpg) Poll: Frigid Pass. Ladder Potential?Yes (83) 70% No (36) 30% 119 total votes Your vote: Frigid Pass. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Sidewinder
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/uf6cW.jpg) Poll: Sidewinder. Ladder Potential?No (47) 53% Yes (41) 47% 88 total votes Your vote: Sidewinder. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Helios
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/Z3KLT.jpg) Poll: Helios. Ladder Potential?No (46) 58% Yes (34) 43% 80 total votes Your vote: Helios. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Avalon
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ffU0R.jpg) Poll: Avalon. Ladder Potential?No (70) 83% Yes (14) 17% 84 total votes Your vote: Avalon. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Golden Valley
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ekraM.jpg) Poll: Golden Valley. Ladder Potential?No (48) 55% Yes (39) 45% 87 total votes Your vote: Golden Valley. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Other maps by ESV members
Omnivium
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/y13Ex.jpg) Poll: Omnivium. Ladder Potential?Yes (62) 59% No (43) 41% 105 total votes Your vote: Omnivium. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Cherno
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/WEl7v.jpg) Poll: Cherno. Ladder Potential?No (60) 65% Yes (32) 35% 92 total votes Your vote: Cherno. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
Istan
+ Show Spoiler +![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/3GEuz.jpg) Poll: Istan. Ladder Potential?No (70) 83% Yes (14) 17% 84 total votes Your vote: Istan. Ladder Potential? (Vote): Yes
(Vote): No
This is not an exhaustive list. Merely a sample. The point here is that there is a vast cornucopia of maps that Blizzard is ignoring and the result is that you have maps like Tal'Darim Altar and Shakuras Plateau that have been in the pool since season 1 and Condemned Ridge being added in.
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I haven't seen some of these maps but they are basically all really neat looking. The ESV Dragons of Eden is actually the coolest looking map I think I have ever seen. I don't really know which of these maps have ladder potential, but Blizzard is almost certainly not going to do anything about it regardless. More maps like Condemned Ridge...
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I wish Blizzard was more aggressive with changing the map pool. We've had the same maps for ages. Alot of them are outdated and very boring like Shakuras.
EDIT: Dear Blizzard please add Frigid Pass.
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Do you think ESV maps which are also MotM winners should be put into both categories? It sort of feels like you're downplaying those maps by not putting them in the MotM category.
I think it is more helpful overall to have new maps put in ladder, because then the tournaments will also use them. That's preferable to putting tournament maps into ladder, because they won't go anywhere from there and it won't let brand new maps in. Generally I think we need to rotate maps a bit more quickly.
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That is why it says ladder potential. Just gauging whether the public is amenable to these maps. This is not about which specific maps need to get in. The point here is to show people that there are other options out there and whether the public likes the idea of adding them in. Public opinion matters. History has shown that Blizzard will only act on this when the general SC2 community wants it.
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I think the ESV tag is more prestigious. I was trying to keep it as simple as possible.
On July 20 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote:
Do you think ESV maps which are also MotM winners should be put into both categories? It sort of feels like you're downplaying those maps by not putting them in the MotM category.
I think it is more helpful overall to have new maps put in ladder, because then the tournaments will also use them. That's preferable to putting tournament maps into ladder, because they won't go anywhere from there and it won't let brand new maps in. Generally I think we need to rotate maps a bit more quickly.
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On July 20 2012 05:52 Gfire wrote:
Do you think ESV maps which are also MotM winners should be put into both categories? It sort of feels like you're downplaying those maps by not putting them in the MotM category.
I think it is more helpful overall to have new maps put in ladder, because then the tournaments will also use them. That's preferable to putting tournament maps into ladder, because they won't go anywhere from there and it won't let brand new maps in. Generally I think we need to rotate maps a bit more quickly.
When I looked at that list I put viewed the ESV maps with higher regard. I know ESV map makers and since Cloud Kingdom and Ohana and other ESV maps have gotten into the spotlight, I think a lot of people probably view them as better map makers then other people in the MotM because they know who they are.
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There are some good maps in there, but others feel like a regression to old maps that were hated by the community (Odin similar to Scrap Station). Some other maps suffer from near impossible to take 4ths or difficult 3rds. Glad to see not one third blocked by rocks in the sample though.
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On July 20 2012 06:01 envisioN . wrote:
There are some good maps in there, but others feel like a regression to old maps that were hated by the community (Odin similar to Scrap Station). Some other maps suffer from near impossible to take 4ths or difficult 3rds. Glad to see not one third blocked by rocks in the sample though.
There were a lot of reasons why Scrap Station was a bad map, and I think it is fair to say that the proximity to your opponent's base by air was the not the worst problem. It still might have been a bit too short between the bases, but I think that a map like that could still work.
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Frigid pass looks pretty sick.
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Just wanna say I appreciate your efforts Marcus. This may not do anything in the end, but at least you're trying to put this stuff out there in hopes for the best. Kudos to you friend!
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Just my opinion:
Condemned, TDA, and Shak Plat out, Antiga no gold cross only. Add in Frigid Pass, Whirlwind, and ADD BACK IN NERAZIM CRYPT that map was amazingly good wtf.
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Frigid Pass should replace TalDarim. That Tal is just pure crap in today's metagame.
EDIT: Dragons of Eden looks pretty sweet too.
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Frigid Pass and Kaydaria are cool.
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On July 20 2012 06:20 IronManSC wrote:
Just wanna say I appreciate your efforts Marcus. This may not do anything in the end, but at least you're trying to put this stuff out there in hopes for the best. Kudos to you friend!
Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?
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On July 20 2012 07:09 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 06:20 IronManSC wrote:
Just wanna say I appreciate your efforts Marcus. This may not do anything in the end, but at least you're trying to put this stuff out there in hopes for the best. Kudos to you friend! Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect?
That thing you feel in your stomach?
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A lot of these maps have really awkward third, they seem akin to maps from much earlier seasons. A fine natural expansion, but after that your screwed. Most of the maps I see look pretty, but wouldn't do very well when thrown into the ladder. I just wish that a group of people could get together to test out these maps. See what works and what doesn't.
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i feel like everyone just voted random yes/no, many of these maps are really good z_z
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On July 20 2012 07:11 Gfire wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 07:09 MarcusRife wrote:On July 20 2012 06:20 IronManSC wrote:
Just wanna say I appreciate your efforts Marcus. This may not do anything in the end, but at least you're trying to put this stuff out there in hopes for the best. Kudos to you friend! Have you ever heard of the butterfly effect? That thing you feel in your stomach?
I am not sure whether you are kidding but no. It comes from chaos theory. It is a phenomenon where small perturbations within a system can lead to massive changes for the system as a whole. The analogy often used to explain it is if a butterfly flaps its wings in Asia this lead to minute changes in wind patterns which then lead to larger changes and these in turn into even larger changes and then the result is a hurricane in Florida.
Hence the butterfly effect. Viral marketing takes some inspiration from it in my opinion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Butterfly_effect
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Why the hell are most of these maps negative in votes?
ALL of these maps are better than ANYTHING we have in the ladder right now.
When people vote for maps - DO NOT vote for things which are like maps in the current pool. I'm so fucking tired of easy third and easy 4th maps. I'm so tired of the same old crap.
FFS, vote for these! Most of these have great potential. The third should be awkward compared to what it is now. It should require a player to strech to defend it. Strech - but not too far. Most of these maps are like this.
NEXT - start voting for maps with things other than 8m/2g! Blizzard is pretty stupid for keeping that format. It's time to experiment ffs. It's time to do cool things. It's time to branch out. It's time - b/c the game can only get better from this.
People have become almost entitled to really easy thirds, lol. Maybe that would create more use for the nydus worm (that and removing the sound it makes).
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IMO TDA, Shakuras, and Condemned out and Frigid Pass, Khaydaria, and Nerazim in.
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Seen plenty of good games on Khydaria and Frigid Pass in the Korean Weekly. Would like to see GSL Whirlwind added in.
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It seems like people are voting yes/no on maps just on the proximity of the third base. Have a look through them all, that seems to be the ONLY deciding factor.
Which is why map contests should be done by experienced mapmakers and never by the public ^_^
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am i too demanding to expect a asymetrical map if its named odin?
also tenazine is gorgeous
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wow Frigid Pass looks like a much more advanced version of shakuras. I like it.
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I feel you've put too many maps, I don't know if people will actually take the time to sit down and think about them.
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I'm very disappointed in these maps. Most of them look fucking gorgeous, but thirds are impossible to take as protoss. Make maps where the third is some what decent for macro game protoss.
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On July 20 2012 09:21 Kukaracha wrote:
I feel you've put too many maps, I don't know if people will actually take the time to sit down and think about them.
I don't need them to. They are not making the ultimate decision. This is simply a rough gauge of the public's interest.
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I like Spring alot, that one stands out for me as having both nice map design and aesthetics.
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Dragons of Eden looks Amaaazzzing! reminds me of Chrono Trigger and for some reason, war3 TDs.
Too bad Blizz will never use maps with different resource lay outs.
I think OP needs to trim down the map list, would yield better results.
side note: I don't think maps that aren't forced cross-spawn work well with sc2. Maybe Hots will change things.
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On July 20 2012 10:43 paintfive wrote:
Dragons of Eden looks Amaaazzzing! reminds me of Chrono Trigger and for some reason, war3 TDs.
Too bad Blizz will never use maps with different resource lay outs.
I think OP needs to trim down the map list, would yield better results.
side note: I don't think maps that aren't forced cross-spawn work well with sc2. Maybe Hots will change things.
Yeah I was just thinking the same thing about the forced cross-spawn. It feels like I've never seen a 4 player map that looked like it would play out nicely with all spawns enabled. That said, when I was looking through the maps in the OP I noticed a few that seemed pretty nice even with all spawns enabled. Unfortunately there were so many maps to look at I dont remember what they were called 
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On July 20 2012 10:43 paintfive wrote:
I think OP needs to trim down the map list, would yield better results.
If I made judgements about what to include here then I would editorializing and that is not my intention. I don't think I am qualified to make those decisions. Just trying to get the ball rolling here. I was also trying to convey to the uninitiated the effort being put in by the mapping community.
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Then maybe they should all be posted in the mapmaking forum and can be narrowed down to a lower number.
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Cherno looks so good in-game T_T
Khaydaria
Muspelheim
Spring
Vicious
...and a couple more all produced some pretty good games. I wouldn't be surprised if one day one of these maps takes a ladder spot.
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How the hell is Peaks of Alamar not Ladder worthy? it is an amazing map!
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Frigid Pass looks so OP for turtling Terran. easy 4 base with tanks.
some of these maps look pretty cool though, Titanis being my favorite map aesthetically.
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On July 20 2012 15:29 ShowTheLights wrote:
How the hell is Peaks of Alamar not Ladder worthy? it is an amazing map!
I agree. I am a fan of that map it fixes a lot of the problems that Crossfire had while maintaining the good parts.
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On July 20 2012 07:38 Qwyn wrote:
Why the hell are most of these maps negative in votes?
ALL of these maps are better than ANYTHING we have in the ladder right now.
Stop taking drugs, you make no sense.
There are absolutely horrendeous maps there, imbalanced as hell.
On to the topic itself, some of the maps that have gotten positive votes are too heavily favored to certain race. You guess what race that is.
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Tanzanite and Khydaria are awsome maps...Woud love to see them on ladder.
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Blizzard just take 8 maps from this thread for your next mappool.
Thank You!
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I personally like the gameplay on Muspelheim.
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Would it be possible to spoiler all of the polls? It almost felt as if I was voting based on what the poll already said rather than what I thought via the map overview.
On the topic of polls though, I'm somewhat surprised at how badly some of these maps are viewed by the polls thus far. Perhaps this is a subtle way of the community saying map makers aren't as good as they claim to be sometimes.
17 maps with No majority.
2 50/50.
10 Yes majority.
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I want new maps for ladder! Spring and Frigid pass I want the most!
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Two things I can see in these polls:
- people want the stuff they are used to already, this means both that they hate anything that looks out of the ordinary and prefer standard designs as well as giving maps that they know from Korean Weekly/certain known mapmakers better votes
- people hate thirds that aren't super easy turtle level
Especially the first point confirms what I thought: Don't give the community any power in the mapmaking selection process. Same as pro players. It would get pretty stale otherwise.
Secondly, keep in mind that for everyone who is not in ESV, there hasn't been much of any incentive to make maps for months now and thus many many mapmakers (almost all of TPW) is inactive at the moment.
And even if you are in ESV you are held back by the fact that it is really hard to get a good amount of quality map testing/feedback from good players during the mapmaking process as well as SC2 being quite anti-innovation (compared to BW).
Also: Frigid Pass?!? Really? Why do people want a 4p mirrored turtle map that like has a slightly harder third than Entombed but then easier/turtlier fourth to fucking eigth base.
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Give us The Grid, Crux Passage, Peaks of Alamar and Vicious!
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I actually think Peaks of Alamar might be a little complicated for a ladder map, however I think it'd be great in the tournament scene! 
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A lot of nice maps. I wish that Blizzard would take more maps from the community and not changes them (as they did with Daybreak or Tal'Darim).
I kinda like the expansions on Firestorm where you can place your base on each side of the minerals and gas. I think this could be a nice thing to experiment with.
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On July 20 2012 21:14 Ragoo wrote:
Two things I can see in these polls:
- people want the stuff they are used to already, this means both that they hate anything that looks out of the ordinary and prefer standard designs as well as giving maps that they know from Korean Weekly/certain known mapmakers better votes
- people hate thirds that aren't super easy turtle level
Especially the first point confirms what I thought: Don't give the community any power in the mapmaking selection process. Same as pro players. It would get pretty stale otherwise.
Secondly, keep in mind that for everyone who is not in ESV, there hasn't been much of any incentive to make maps for months now and thus many many mapmakers (almost all of TPW) is inactive at the moment.
And even if you are in ESV you are held back by the fact that it is really hard to get a good amount of quality map testing/feedback from good players during the mapmaking process as well as SC2 being quite anti-innovation (compared to BW).
Also: Frigid Pass?!? Really? Why do people want a 4p mirrored turtle map that like has a slightly harder third than Entombed but then easier/turtlier fourth to fucking eigth base.
The alternative to "turtle maps" tends to be maps that you can't take a third/fourth on i.e. all-in maps.
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On July 20 2012 07:38 Qwyn wrote:
Why the hell are most of these maps negative in votes?
ALL of these maps are better than ANYTHING we have in the ladder right now.
When people vote for maps - DO NOT vote for things which are like maps in the current pool. I'm so fucking tired of easy third and easy 4th maps. I'm so tired of the same old crap.
FFS, vote for these! Most of these have great potential. The third should be awkward compared to what it is now. It should require a player to strech to defend it. Strech - but not too far. Most of these maps are like this.
NEXT - start voting for maps with things other than 8m/2g! Blizzard is pretty stupid for keeping that format. It's time to experiment ffs. It's time to do cool things. It's time to branch out. It's time - b/c the game can only get better from this.
People have become almost entitled to really easy thirds, lol. Maybe that would create more use for the nydus worm (that and removing the sound it makes).
the proplem is if u don't have a good way to def your third and main it often becomes all in maps-.-and this has been proven by other maps in the ladder and gsl and there is tournaments specifically for these maps why aren't they good enough good for testing?i would hate to be having to play on a bad map for an entiry season-.-
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I find this all very interesting and would love to see more community maps being used in tournaments, even smaller ones. I think people put too much emphasis on maps needing to be perfectly balanced to the current metagame so when it comes to time to play them in a tournament they are comfortable.
Personally I think it would be a lot more entertaining to play in (or watch) an event where the map pool was different each week and was made up of different types of maps that would throw the metagame out the window and leave us with fresh, innovative play on a regular basis, and really letting the more creative players shine.
I think once a map has been 'figured out' and the same builds are starting to be repeated over and over on them, its time to give them the boot and move to something new. But like I said, most people will disagree b/c they want to know exactly what their competition is most likely to do, and this means using maps that caters to the current metagame.
Nevertheless, in any events I hold in the future, I would like to use a lot of the maps from the community.
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Not sure why everyone thinks super easy third base is supposed to lead to good games
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On July 20 2012 23:27 Roth wrote:
I kinda like the expansions on Firestorm where you can place your base on each side of the minerals and gas. I think this could be a nice thing to experiment with.
Morrow made that map.
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On July 20 2012 21:14 Ragoo wrote:
Especially the first point confirms what I thought: Don't give the community any power in the mapmaking selection process. Same as pro players. It would get pretty stale otherwise.
I don't see a problem with giving people what they want at this point. HOTS is on the way so that will break up the staleness you speak of. I suspect this is Blizzard's rationale for not putting much effort into their map pool. They are running the show right now. It is not like in Brood War where they stopped supporting the game so everything was up to the community/tournament organizations. If enough of their paying customers put pressure on them I would hope that they would act and give people what they want. Even though it is not exactly what you want at least it gets additional community made maps in the ladder. It would be an improvement.
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I just wanted to say that Condemned Ridge makes me want to gouge my own eyes out with a rusty screwdriver
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On July 21 2012 03:34 FinalForm wrote:
Not sure why everyone thinks super easy third base is supposed to lead to good games
This. Easy third base doesn't lead to good games in any way, shape, or form. If anything it just leads to a whole shit ton of boring match-ups where every game is the same for the first 10 minutes and nobody wants to watch.
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I have a feeling that the map pool will be completely reset with HOTS, so it feels kinda pointless to revolutionize the map pool at this point.
Maybe take out a stale map like antiga and replace it with something like sanshorn mists (it feels quite good and balanced, yet hasn't been featured in major tournaments). Other than that, I have no real problems with the current maps.
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On July 21 2012 04:00 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 20 2012 21:14 Ragoo wrote:
Especially the first point confirms what I thought: Don't give the community any power in the mapmaking selection process. Same as pro players. It would get pretty stale otherwise.
I don't see a problem with giving people what they want at this point. HOTS is on the way so that will break up the staleness you speak of. I suspect this is Blizzard's rationale for not putting much effort into their map pool. They are running the show right now. It is not like in Brood War where they stopped supporting the game so everything was up to the community/tournament organizations. If enough of their paying customers put pressure on them I would hope that they would act and give people what they want. Even though it is not exactly what you want at least it gets additional community made maps in the ladder. It would be an improvement.
My point is that they don't understand what they want. You have to force them to use new and different maps, like in BW.
Good thing that will soon happen much more with Kespa and their mapmakers coming in.
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On July 21 2012 04:25 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:00 MarcusRife wrote:On July 20 2012 21:14 Ragoo wrote:
Especially the first point confirms what I thought: Don't give the community any power in the mapmaking selection process. Same as pro players. It would get pretty stale otherwise.
I don't see a problem with giving people what they want at this point. HOTS is on the way so that will break up the staleness you speak of. I suspect this is Blizzard's rationale for not putting much effort into their map pool. They are running the show right now. It is not like in Brood War where they stopped supporting the game so everything was up to the community/tournament organizations. If enough of their paying customers put pressure on them I would hope that they would act and give people what they want. Even though it is not exactly what you want at least it gets additional community made maps in the ladder. It would be an improvement. My point is that they don't understand what they want. You have to force them to use new and different maps, like in BW. Good thing that will soon happen much more with Kespa and their mapmakers coming in.
One can only hope that will bring some considerable (and positive) changes.
I am thoroughly confused by how many negative votes these maps have considering how many of them, apart from looking gorgeous, are actually very good maps. But I suppose that many of those who voted negatively are those who prefer no-rush 15 games so they can feel superior if they win a macro game or have an excuse like "omg all-in noob i am so much better but still i lose" (which is obviously ridiculous and stupid).
I for one greatly appreciate the time and effort that mapmakers (not just the ones featured in the OP of this thread) put into their work and in trying to make the game better that way.
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My point is that they don't understand what they want. You have to force them to use new and different maps, like in BW.
Good thing that will soon happen much more with Kespa and their mapmakers coming in.[/QUOTE]
I don't know how much that will help with the ladder or how much it will help foreigner mappers. As long as Blizzard maintains their control of things I don't think you are going to be satisfied.
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On July 21 2012 04:31 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +
My point is that they don't understand what they want. You have to force them to use new and different maps, like in BW.
Good thing that will soon happen much more with Kespa and their mapmakers coming in.
I don't know how much that will help with the ladder or how much it will help foreigner mappers. As long as Blizzard maintains their control of things I don't think you are going to be satisfied.
Those maps won't really get into ladder if Kespa acts like in BW. Or only in some weird changed form I don't want them to be in ladder anyway.
For foreign mapmaking it means... well I could say it means the end of foreign mapmaking bar ESV now but then again everyone but ESV doesn't get their maps anywhere now anyways so nothing changes really. We only get more unimportant ^^
To be exact, ESV also only will get maps somewhere if they partner with Kespa or GSL.
Everyone else still might have a chance if there is TL Map Contests in the future tho.
But I don't care for ladder, I only care for the global pool of maps used in the big tournaments. And if the future maps from Korea are anything like the ones they made in BW I will be very satisfied.
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On July 21 2012 04:39 Ragoo wrote:
But I don't care for ladder, I only care for the global pool of maps used in the big tournaments. And if the future maps from Korea are anything like the ones they made in BW I will be very satisfied.
Up to now the ladder and global map pool have been strongly correlated. Kespa is not as independent any more. They have to play nice with GOM and Blizzard. BW days are over. The E-sport scene has changed. I don't know that they will go back. I think things will continue much the same way as they have. There will be evolution but I don't see the Kespa revolution that you see. We want the same thing just have different ideas about how to go about it.
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On July 21 2012 04:51 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:39 Ragoo wrote:
But I don't care for ladder, I only care for the global pool of maps used in the big tournaments. And if the future maps from Korea are anything like the ones they made in BW I will be very satisfied. Up to now the ladder and global map pool have been strongly correlated. Kespa is not as independent any more. They have to play nice with GOM and Blizzard. BW days are over. The E-sport scene has changed. I don't know that they will go back. I think things will continue much the same way as they have. There will be evolution but I don't see the Kespa revolution that you see. We want the same thing just have different ideas about how to go about it.
If Proleague would scrap the "new maps every season" conecpt for sc2 I will be sad as hell.
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On July 21 2012 04:39 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:31 MarcusRife wrote:
My point is that they don't understand what they want. You have to force them to use new and different maps, like in BW.
Good thing that will soon happen much more with Kespa and their mapmakers coming in.
I don't know how much that will help with the ladder or how much it will help foreigner mappers. As long as Blizzard maintains their control of things I don't think you are going to be satisfied. Those maps won't really get into ladder if Kespa acts like in BW. Or only in some weird changed form I don't want them to be in ladder anyway. For foreign mapmaking it means... well I could say it means the end of foreign mapmaking bar ESV now but then again everyone but ESV doesn't get their maps anywhere now anyways so nothing changes really. We only get more unimportant ^^ To be exact, ESV also only will get maps somewhere if they partner with Kespa or GSL. Everyone else still might have a chance if there is TL Map Contests in the future tho. But I don't care for ladder, I only care for the global pool of maps used in the big tournaments. And if the future maps from Korea are anything like the ones they made in BW I will be very satisfied.
You put too much faith in KeSPA controlling SC2. All signs point to that not happening.
Many mappers are looking at the KeSPA mappers like ppl were looking at the KeSPA players (as gods who would take over the scene), like with the players I think everyone is about to find out they will not do so, there will be a lot of catch up to do.
This is not BW, this is SC2. Never forget that.
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On July 21 2012 04:51 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 04:39 Ragoo wrote:
But I don't care for ladder, I only care for the global pool of maps used in the big tournaments. And if the future maps from Korea are anything like the ones they made in BW I will be very satisfied. Up to now the ladder and global map pool have been strongly correlated. Kespa is not as independent any more. They have to play nice with GOM and Blizzard. BW days are over. The E-sport scene has changed. I don't know that they will go back. I think things will continue much the same way as they have. There will be evolution but I don't see the Kespa revolution that you see. We want the same thing just have different ideas about how to go about it.
Currently GSL uses only 2 Blizzard maps out of 8 and I don't see them using Condemned Ridge either.
Also Kespa already started using 4 map map pool like BW and then there is no need to have stupid filler maps from Blizzard.
The thing is that if you want to be really professional about SC 2 you just can't rely on Blizzard's mapmaking abilities. They are both too conservative (refusing to use half bases for some idiotic reason for example) and they just straight up suck at mapmaking.
I don't see a reason why Kespa wouldn't use their own mapmakers and why they wouldn't produce high quality and innovative maps in the future. Like what exactly would make Kespa change their style?!
On July 21 2012 05:29 Diamond wrote:
You put too much faith in KeSPA controlling SC2. All signs point to that not happening.
Who talked about controlling? I'm just saying they'll use their own mapmakers and continue with that like they did in BW. That's not controling anything bar their own leagues.
Altho that would certainly mean that big foreign tournaments would use these maps as well, like they use GSL maps.
What do you think will happen, Kespa stop working with their mapmakers and using Blizzard/ladder maps? I don't see a reason why they would do that.
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On July 20 2012 09:44 TheCreature wrote:
I'm very disappointed in these maps. Most of them look fucking gorgeous, but thirds are impossible to take as protoss. Make maps where the third is some what decent for macro game protoss.
Plus 1. Most of these maps are imbalanced as hell against toss and terran that doesnt go pure bio. Sorry zergs, we play this game too. Maps with wide open third bases are the equivalent of rocks at the third for you. KNOCK IT OFF! See Stephano vs Hero on Shakuras at NASL for a prime example. Not cool.
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As the map maker I'm sad that my map gets downvoted by 75ish percent, especially if no one who voted took a closer look at the map. Not that I put any weight on those polls but still...
A lot of those maps have seen 50+ hours of work and have done well in tournaments...
Not sure exactly where I'm going with this, maybe I just want to plug my own map: + Show Spoiler + 
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On July 21 2012 05:32 Ragoo wrote:
Altho that would certainly mean that big foreign tournaments would use these maps as well, like they use GSL maps.
What do you think will happen, Kespa stop working with their mapmakers and using Blizzard/ladder maps? I don't see a reason why they would do that.
GSL maps no longer are an auto add to tournaments. No one has picked up Whirlwind or Muspelheim for example. Very few picked up Atlantis, etc. This is no longer an era where one org dictates the pool for the global market, just some have stronger influences than others in certain regions (GSL/KeSPA for Korea, ESL for EU, and MLG for NA).
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On July 21 2012 07:08 Diamond wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 05:32 Ragoo wrote:
Altho that would certainly mean that big foreign tournaments would use these maps as well, like they use GSL maps.
What do you think will happen, Kespa stop working with their mapmakers and using Blizzard/ladder maps? I don't see a reason why they would do that. GSL maps no longer are an auto add to tournaments. No one has picked up Whirlwind or Muspelheim for example. Very few picked up Atlantis, etc. This is no longer an era where one org dictates the pool for the global market, just some have stronger influences than others in certain regions (GSL/KeSPA for Korea, ESL for EU, and MLG for NA).
That's only because tournaments are f-ing slow at picking up new maps or changing anything (especially now that they don't need to kick completely broken maps out of the map pool like they had to in the past). MLG still uses Tal'Darim and Shakuras, IEM still uses Tal'Darim, Dreamhack hasn't changed anything either but only has a 5 map map pool now (hooray btw) and obviously WCS uses ladder maps.
Unless you know something I don't for the future, things won't change and foreign tournaments will still use the maps from ladder or from Korean tournaments. I don't see ESL or MLG introducing new maps + Show Spoiler +In fact ESL kinda promised to use the MotM winner of january/february in IEM and I'm 99% sure this won't happen
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On July 21 2012 07:21 Ragoo wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:08 Diamond wrote:On July 21 2012 05:32 Ragoo wrote:
Altho that would certainly mean that big foreign tournaments would use these maps as well, like they use GSL maps.
What do you think will happen, Kespa stop working with their mapmakers and using Blizzard/ladder maps? I don't see a reason why they would do that. GSL maps no longer are an auto add to tournaments. No one has picked up Whirlwind or Muspelheim for example. Very few picked up Atlantis, etc. This is no longer an era where one org dictates the pool for the global market, just some have stronger influences than others in certain regions (GSL/KeSPA for Korea, ESL for EU, and MLG for NA). That's only because tournaments are f-ing slow at picking up new maps or changing anything
Ohana was picked up awfully fast as opposed to Metropolis, Whirlwind, and other such maps, iirc.
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On July 21 2012 07:25 IronManSC wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 07:21 Ragoo wrote:On July 21 2012 07:08 Diamond wrote:On July 21 2012 05:32 Ragoo wrote:
Altho that would certainly mean that big foreign tournaments would use these maps as well, like they use GSL maps.
What do you think will happen, Kespa stop working with their mapmakers and using Blizzard/ladder maps? I don't see a reason why they would do that. GSL maps no longer are an auto add to tournaments. No one has picked up Whirlwind or Muspelheim for example. Very few picked up Atlantis, etc. This is no longer an era where one org dictates the pool for the global market, just some have stronger influences than others in certain regions (GSL/KeSPA for Korea, ESL for EU, and MLG for NA). That's only because tournaments are f-ing slow at picking up new maps or changing anything Ohana was picked up awfully fast as opposed to Metropolis, Whirlwind, and other such maps, iirc.
Ohana was first announced for ladder, then used in GSL. And every tournament obviously loves to use ladder maps if they are well made and used in GSL , so they picked it up asap 
As far as I can remember Metropolis was picked up quite fast as well tho. But yea Whirlwind not really seen anywhere yet.
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On July 21 2012 06:32 Johanaz wrote:As the map maker I'm sad that my map gets downvoted by 75ish percent, especially if no one who voted took a closer look at the map. Not that I put any weight on those polls but still... A lot of those maps have seen 50+ hours of work and have done well in tournaments... Not sure exactly where I'm going with this, maybe I just want to plug my own map: + Show Spoiler +
I like Rusty Cage. Whatever that is worth.
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On July 21 2012 08:10 MarcusRife wrote:Show nested quote +On July 21 2012 06:32 Johanaz wrote:As the map maker I'm sad that my map gets downvoted by 75ish percent, especially if no one who voted took a closer look at the map. Not that I put any weight on those polls but still... A lot of those maps have seen 50+ hours of work and have done well in tournaments... Not sure exactly where I'm going with this, maybe I just want to plug my own map: + Show Spoiler + I like Rusty Cage. Whatever that is worth.
The 3rd is really far though. I love the tileset and aesthetics though. A work of art IMO.
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From what I've seen, I can't seem to figure out how Protoss would Forge Fast Expand on a few of these maps. I say this as a Terran Player, but Protoss should be able to FFE on all maps for PvZ without much difficulty except for the 6-Pool openers. Mind including pictures of how FFE wall offs should look like on some of these maps?
Having a natural that supports this should be a natural rule.
Also the picture for Sidewinder is missing.
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On July 22 2012 16:34 dabom88 wrote:
From what I've seen, I can't seem to figure out how Protoss would Forge Fast Expand on a few of these maps. I say this as a Terran Player, but Protoss should be able to FFE on all maps for PvZ without much difficulty except for the 6-Pool openers. Mind including pictures of how FFE wall offs should look like on some of these maps?
Having a natural that supports this should be a natural rule.
Also the picture for Sidewinder is missing.
Which maps? I'm pretty sure you can FFE on all of these except for Dodongo, which has an in base expo, and possibly Odin and Sidewinder. But even in those cases, it looks like you can still do the wall from your main ramp old-school FFE.
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Odin can be FFE from the ramp to the nexus. It has a fairly long rush distance, so that extends the time allowed to set up your wall and cannons.
In the case of this map, I liked the idea of a ramp->nexus ffe because it still has vulnerabilities. Given the current metagame this might no longer be acceptable, however.
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/rV7aDl.jpg)
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Odin looks like Ride of Valkyries to me
Frigid Pass looks sickk
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The maps with the majority being YES so far:
Ordered from greatest percentage of 'yes' to least
The Grid (76%)
Spring (75%)
Muspelheim (74%)
Tanzanite (73%)
Khaydaria (72%)
Frigid Pass (69%)
Afterglow (66%)
Omnivium (63%)
Silver Sands (62%)
Odin (61%)
Peaks of Alamar (53%)
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The Grid was supposed to be used in IEM cos it won MotM February btw. It was kind of a set deal. That will likely not happen tho.
Just saying people, you should message ESL and rage
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On July 25 2012 04:47 Ragoo wrote:The Grid was supposed to be used in IEM cos it won MotM February btw. It was kind of a set deal. That will likely not happen tho. Just saying people, you should message ESL and rage
Or MotM should have had a more clear cut contract with IEM for it's prizing.
Still shitty of IEM if they don't follow through.
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On July 25 2012 04:47 Ragoo wrote:The Grid was supposed to be used in IEM cos it won MotM February btw. It was kind of a set deal. That will likely not happen tho. Just saying people, you should message ESL and rage
That would just be silly. While the teamwork with ESL did not go as well as intended, they did a great job honoring as much of the deal as they could and I find ESL, especially TheRogue, to have dealt with it professionaly and with the map makers best interest in mind.
And really Ragoo, you should know better then to post that. You know exactly why things went as they did, and why we should hold no grudge against ESL.
Anyways back to the subject. There are tons of community made maps that are at least on par or better then the current ladder pool, and more importantly, they are new. I find that the current ladder pool is mostly playable and functional but it is getting really really old and generally map rotation is too slow.
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If the map doesn't have a free 3rd Zerg its never going to get into the map pool. Why do you think TL staff pushed so hard for Korhal Compound? Thank God Protoss was able to find a way to exploit that map and easily knocked Zerg's 3rd out before Zerg could late game uncontested.
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I see Peaks of Alamar, Spring and The Grid in front. Sure would love to see some professional games on them.
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On July 25 2012 06:33 PauseBreak wrote:
If the map doesn't have a free 3rd Zerg its never going to get into the map pool. Why do you think TL staff pushed so hard for Korhal Compound? Thank God Protoss was able to find a way to exploit that map and easily knocked Zerg's 3rd out before Zerg could late game uncontested.
Not sure if sarcastic - you realize Korhal Compound actually had a difficult third to such a degree that monitor made a revised version of the map to fix the problem?
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Food for thought: shouldn't the map pool be moving away from zerg friendly maps?
I think its obvious zerg is being the most successful race in the current metagame. So why are we still balancing the map pools around their convenience? When terran was at its strongest, everyone was fighting for the best terran maps to be removed. Why the double standard?
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On July 30 2012 06:02 Bagi wrote:
Food for thought: shouldn't the map pool be moving away from zerg friendly maps?
I think its obvious zerg is being the most successful race in the current metagame. So why are we still balancing the map pools around their convenience? When terran was at its strongest, everyone was fighting for the best terran maps to be removed. Why the double standard?
I'm of the opinion that old habits die hard. Many people that fought for Zerg-friendly maps will likely continue doing so.
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It's good to get exposure for these maps out there but I'd like another TLMC at this point. It's been a solid six months since the two maps from TLMC (Cloud Kingdom and Korhal which is gone now) were added to ladder I believe.
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Why no GSL maps? I'm a big fan of Whirlwind and I think that Metropolis has potential if they edit it to get rid of the 5 bases cut off by 2 medium size ramp thing.
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Lord_J
Kenya1085 Posts
I don't play enough ladder at the moment to really care about ladder maps, but I wish tournament organizers would be more proactive about trying to bring new maps into the competitive scene. Even if the new map turns out to be bad, it's more interesting to watch games on a bad new map than a bad old map, and I see plenty of those in the map pools of major tournaments.
Every single map in the OP is a better and more interesting choice than, say, Antiga Shipyard at this point, and while my expectations for Blizzard when it comes to ladder maps are so low that it's hard for me to be disappointed, I really can't imagine the thinking behind the boring, dated map pools of almost every major tournament right now.
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The Grid is sexy as hell. I'd probably lose all games on because I'd be to busy marveling at its beauty.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/zHdy9.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/5nYXJ.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://imgur.com/rV7aD.jpg)
