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On July 03 2012 05:59 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:52 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 05:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven. Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining. They're the only race so far to even have a fanclub for crying. Just saying  http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339852
Looks like terrans have the "fan club for crying" thing well under control as well. Everyone needs a thread to vent about the their losses in SC2. After all, we didn't keep playing this game because it was easy.
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Actually rather surprised by these. Always interesting to see the fluctuations month by month
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So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic.
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On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close .
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On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close .
Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out.
Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance.
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ZvP was to be expected. Next month we'll see if the winrate stabilizes.
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On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance.
Qualifiers have never been included and I don't think they should be. There is not controling the number of players that can attempt to qualify or the quality of those players for all tournaments world wide.
The ladder does not provide useful data to anyone except for Blizzard. It tries to give you a 50/50 win rate and matchs you according to that.
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On July 03 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance. Qualifiers have never been included and I don't think they should be. There is not controling the number of players that can attempt to qualify or the quality of those players for all tournaments world wide. The ladder does not provide useful data to anyone except for Blizzard. It tries to give you a 50/50 win rate and matchs you according to that.
TSL4 Kr qualifiers were basically a battle royale of Code S through B teamers. They weren't any old qualifier.
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i wanted to see the win rates so badly after seeing the june one, thanks a lot!
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On July 03 2012 05:25 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:49 Blezza wrote:
Well it looks like Terran were right after all, it was 55.3% which is 0.3% imbalance. Atleast most Terran players look pretty stupid now which is good. Nice math 55,3% vs 44,7%. That would be 10,6% imbalance. And it would be even bigger if the international graph didn't include the Korean statistics. So yeah, the only one made look stupid here would be you.
Blizzard will probably never have 50/50 balance, anything around 45-55% I remember they said is more than good. I think the game is fairly balanced right now actually.
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On July 03 2012 05:59 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:52 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 05:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven. Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining. They're the only race so far to even have a fanclub for crying. Just saying http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339852
Infested terrans trying to sow disarray.
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On July 03 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance. Qualifiers have never been included and I don't think they should be. There is not controling the number of players that can attempt to qualify or the quality of those players for all tournaments world wide. The ladder does not provide useful data to anyone except for Blizzard. It tries to give you a 50/50 win rate and matchs you according to that. TSL4 Kr qualifiers were basically a battle royale of Code S through B teamers. They weren't any old qualifier.
I am sure it was, but that does not mean that it should be added to the stats. You can't add one qualifier and not another just because a lot of good players played in it. We can't add them all in because then the stats become meaningless or it gives people the ability to cherry pick the qualifiers that favor the way they want the match ups to look.
The whole point if these win rates are to show the same or similar sets of data, month after month to see how the game looks at the highest level for each region. We can't just throw a qualifier or two in the middle of that because the bracket was stacked with pure-bad-ass nerds.
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how many games are actually played for these ratings. cant really judge balance based on just a few games.
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On July 03 2012 05:10 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:50 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 03:30 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 02:42 Flonomenalz wrote:On July 03 2012 02:36 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 02:32 The_Stampede wrote:On July 03 2012 02:30 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 01:32 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 00:59 Shiori wrote:
I tire of seeing debate over these graphs, because it's always the same:
If something agrees with the balance whine of the day, everyone who plays the apparently overpowered race claims it's "metagame." If something disagrees, those same people turn right around and take the stats as gospel.
It's pretty simple: watch the games. TvZ and PvZ are both broken because Zerg in general is broken. Yes, Zerg was underpowered at release, but they haven't been for a long time. The other thing to consider is that in many respects, there were simply more top level Korean T/P players in tournaments than Zerg. Nestea is a notoriously weak traveller, and DRG is actually pretty new in the scheme of the Zerg scene; same with Symbol. There was a long period of time in which you had Nestea and then a big void of skill beneath him as far as Zerg went. Even now, I can only think of less than 10 truly top Zerg players, but I can think of at least 20 Terrans and probably 15 Protoss.
Tl;dr when MKP or Hero beat Moon or something it doesn't mean the matchup is balanced. dumbest/most biased post ever plus flame baiting. a biased zerg response would be that zerg is just UP and nestea is just way better so he can win while all other zerg players who are equal in skill to T/P players cannot win due to UP race. see how stupid heavily biased comments are? Except mine's based in fact. If you look at the most mechanically proficient/creative players, you get a lot of Terrans, a decent number of Protosses, and a few Zergs. It's not biased; it's just the way it is. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're actually a moron. Zing! Feel free to back up your argument with facts rather than sniveling. I don't even play Terran and I can see that they have the most mechanically skilled players. What evidence could you POSSIBLY use to make this claim? Following the scene since release. Playing all races. Knowing what all races have to do during all stages of the game. Listening to what pro players say. Reading up on discussions. Asking random players. Asking people who off race. There might not be any mathematical formula that will give you an unquestionable answer, but everything points to the fact, and making the claim is not sensational at all. I will even go so far as to say that Terran being more mechanically demanding has turned the best terran players into the best players in the world, since they've constantly been improving at a pace that outweighs their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, who due to limited race designs will have to depend on Blizzard to buff them mathematically constantly to compensate. Unless Zerg/Protoss design changes dramatically, this will be the continuing trend throughout SC2s life. Terran gets nerfed, terran players get better, the other races get buffed to compensate. This'll eventually lead into Terran being nigh unplayable anywhere outside the absolute top level of play. It's a problem of shit design in essence. i agree with what you said. it does seem that terran is the race that best utilizes good mechanics and naturally the terran players will just get better and better while zerg/protoss players stagnate in the mechanical aspects of the game and will be buffed in order to keep up. but i was talking about skill in my post which i was meaning as a general term for the ability to win. and winning takes more than just mechanics. many games are lost due to bad decision making as well as limiting mechanics. edit: oh the other guy actually said terran players are not the most mechnically sound but the most creative too. LOL guess i cant argue against such heavy bias you win I'm assuming by this you don't think Terran players have been the most creative players. Which I laugh at considering we are the race that has the most builds which by definition pretty much makes us the most creative/innovative race. I'm not saying I'm creative, but Terran players as a whole trump the other two races in creativity. Especially Protoss.
Even as a Terran player I can't quite agree with you there. Terran has more builds than the other races because we have a tech tree that's a little bit easier to jump up in a lot of cases, and a lot of our earlier units are good in small numbers as compared to those of Z/P.
That being said, I do think Terran has been the most innovative race at high levels if for no other reason than so much of our stuff has gotten nerfed that we've had to tweak or entirely change strategies based on the various patches.
As for the graphs, it's disappointing how misleading the data is, and even more disappointing that anyone thinks the current TvZ meta is acceptable. The best matchup in the game has become pretty boring to watch because of the ease with which Zerg can force macro games and get quick hive tech. Once the hive tech is out, siege tanks have no power and it becomes deathball vs bio/vikings just like TvP. And TvP sucks. TvT is the only good matchup left, and it's no coincidence it's the only one where tanks are strong and have to be respected.
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On July 03 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance. Qualifiers have never been included and I don't think they should be. There is not controling the number of players that can attempt to qualify or the quality of those players for all tournaments world wide. The ladder does not provide useful data to anyone except for Blizzard. It tries to give you a 50/50 win rate and matchs you according to that.
if the proleague sc2 games are counted, the TSL quals should be, they have a higher skill representation than the kespa games.
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On July 03 2012 06:42 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:28 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance. Qualifiers have never been included and I don't think they should be. There is not controling the number of players that can attempt to qualify or the quality of those players for all tournaments world wide. The ladder does not provide useful data to anyone except for Blizzard. It tries to give you a 50/50 win rate and matchs you according to that. TSL4 Kr qualifiers were basically a battle royale of Code S through B teamers. They weren't any old qualifier. I am sure it was, but that does not mean that it should be added to the stats. You can't add one qualifier and not another just because a lot of good players played in it. We can't add them all in because then the stats become meaningless or it gives people the ability to cherry pick the qualifiers that favor the way they want the match ups to look. The whole point if these win rates are to show the same or similar sets of data, month after month to see how the game looks at the highest level for each region. We can't just throw a qualifier or two in the middle of that because the bracket was stacked with pure-bad-ass nerds.
If the data represented for Korean match statistics do not take into account something as important and relevant as the TSL4 KR qualifiers, they're flawed. And to ignore the TSL4 KR qualifiers, alone or combined with the rest of the data is the definition of cherry picking.
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On July 03 2012 06:21 Monochromatic wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 06:17 aHaTsc wrote:On July 03 2012 06:15 Evangelist wrote:
So basically with a complete set of data the win rates of international and Korean TvZ are within a few percent of each other. As a terran I'm not going to discuss balance here (though I think Blizzard should consider this quite carefully) but I think that's quite a remarkable statistic. Not including Code A qualifiers or TSL4 KR Qualifiers (2 zerg dominated tournaments) is why it seems so close . Why don't we include all tournaments and qualifiers? That way there is nothing left out. Also, is there a way to get ladder winrate by leagues? Because I think that would be most telling of an imbalance.
only blizzards winrates "adjusted by skill"
but you can look at sc2 ranks to see how the players are distributed per race and league, and that shows that terrans are underrepresented everywhere except bronze and silver, so unless fewer good players pick terran for whatever reason, it would mean terran is UP, now even at the international prolevel, and even in korea with the exception of korean god tier.
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For once whe had chance to have significant amount of data for Korean graph with all these qualifiers to different tournaments. Its a shame that these games arent included.
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On July 03 2012 05:10 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:50 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 03:30 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 02:42 Flonomenalz wrote:On July 03 2012 02:36 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 02:32 The_Stampede wrote:On July 03 2012 02:30 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 01:32 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 00:59 Shiori wrote:
I tire of seeing debate over these graphs, because it's always the same:
If something agrees with the balance whine of the day, everyone who plays the apparently overpowered race claims it's "metagame." If something disagrees, those same people turn right around and take the stats as gospel.
It's pretty simple: watch the games. TvZ and PvZ are both broken because Zerg in general is broken. Yes, Zerg was underpowered at release, but they haven't been for a long time. The other thing to consider is that in many respects, there were simply more top level Korean T/P players in tournaments than Zerg. Nestea is a notoriously weak traveller, and DRG is actually pretty new in the scheme of the Zerg scene; same with Symbol. There was a long period of time in which you had Nestea and then a big void of skill beneath him as far as Zerg went. Even now, I can only think of less than 10 truly top Zerg players, but I can think of at least 20 Terrans and probably 15 Protoss.
Tl;dr when MKP or Hero beat Moon or something it doesn't mean the matchup is balanced. dumbest/most biased post ever plus flame baiting. a biased zerg response would be that zerg is just UP and nestea is just way better so he can win while all other zerg players who are equal in skill to T/P players cannot win due to UP race. see how stupid heavily biased comments are? Except mine's based in fact. If you look at the most mechanically proficient/creative players, you get a lot of Terrans, a decent number of Protosses, and a few Zergs. It's not biased; it's just the way it is. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're actually a moron. Zing! Feel free to back up your argument with facts rather than sniveling. I don't even play Terran and I can see that they have the most mechanically skilled players. What evidence could you POSSIBLY use to make this claim? Following the scene since release. Playing all races. Knowing what all races have to do during all stages of the game. Listening to what pro players say. Reading up on discussions. Asking random players. Asking people who off race. There might not be any mathematical formula that will give you an unquestionable answer, but everything points to the fact, and making the claim is not sensational at all. I will even go so far as to say that Terran being more mechanically demanding has turned the best terran players into the best players in the world, since they've constantly been improving at a pace that outweighs their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, who due to limited race designs will have to depend on Blizzard to buff them mathematically constantly to compensate. Unless Zerg/Protoss design changes dramatically, this will be the continuing trend throughout SC2s life. Terran gets nerfed, terran players get better, the other races get buffed to compensate. This'll eventually lead into Terran being nigh unplayable anywhere outside the absolute top level of play. It's a problem of shit design in essence. i agree with what you said. it does seem that terran is the race that best utilizes good mechanics and naturally the terran players will just get better and better while zerg/protoss players stagnate in the mechanical aspects of the game and will be buffed in order to keep up. but i was talking about skill in my post which i was meaning as a general term for the ability to win. and winning takes more than just mechanics. many games are lost due to bad decision making as well as limiting mechanics. edit: oh the other guy actually said terran players are not the most mechnically sound but the most creative too. LOL guess i cant argue against such heavy bias you win I'm assuming by this you don't think Terran players have been the most creative players. Which I laugh at considering we are the race that has the most builds which by definition pretty much makes us the most creative/innovative race. I'm not saying I'm creative, but Terran players as a whole trump the other two races in creativity. Especially Protoss.
Your arrogance is laughable.
DT expand, DT opener, DT drop all-in/expand, blink stalker/obs all-in, blink stalker all-in, four gate, three gate aggressive, three gate robo, three gate expand, two gate robo expand, one gate robo expand, voidray all-in, phoenix into expand, phoenix + DT v 1/1/1, one gate expand and the dozen variations based on gas timings/unit composition/food the nexus is placed, sentry/immortal bust, six gate, seven gate, double forge gateway units (+/- immortals) into 3 base, 2 base colossus all-in, colossus + forge, single/double forge quick storm, chargelot archon single or double forge, quick three base into 8/9 gate aggression, 2/2 chargelot/archon 2 base timing, quick 3 base into 7 gate/twilight/forge, 6 gate twilight/forge into third, 6 gate blink stalker + obs into third base, so on and so on. That's just PvT.
"Especially protoss". You're right, terrans are just SOOO much better than everyone else, and if they played the imba ez-mode races they would probably be even MORE dominant, but Blizzard just despises them completely so those super-skilled players can't show their true skill like they used to.
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On July 03 2012 05:31 Blezza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:25 ErAsc2 wrote:On July 03 2012 04:49 Blezza wrote:
Well it looks like Terran were right after all, it was 55.3% which is 0.3% imbalance. Atleast most Terran players look pretty stupid now which is good. Nice math 55,3% vs 44,7%. That would be 10,6% imbalance. And it would be even bigger if the international graph didn't include the Korean statistics. So yeah, the only one made look stupid here would be you. Well Browder said that anything within 55% is a balanced MU and therefore they will patch it if it goes above that. See the problem you have is that you say dumb stuff without knowing anything, and as if anyone on this planet is dumb enough to make such an error in maths. Seriously man.
Based oo that criteria game was balanced for a year now with exception for one month in ZvP. So where these all patches come from?
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EPT
