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On July 03 2012 04:50 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:46 Tuczniak wrote:On July 03 2012 04:38 zhurai wrote:On July 03 2012 03:42 mrtomjones wrote:On July 03 2012 02:07 MysteryTerran wrote:On July 03 2012 01:15 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 02 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On July 02 2012 22:26 Asha` wrote:On July 02 2012 22:23 Whole wrote:
Seems that Korean Terrans were busy figuring out the new TvZ while International Terrans were busy complaining about balance. All the korean Terrans complain about TvZ =p but they're just much better players so still win games. oh you! ofc they complain about z, 51% winrate must feel underpowered after 2 years of dominating They complain because it is ridiculous to be more mechanically skilled than your opponent and yet have no real chance of winning unless your opponent messes up. I love you for this post. This is 100% accurate also. I played a game the other day where I outplayed a Protoss completely and still lost. Like someone said earlier they just need a few Archons and to continuously warp in Chargelots and eventually you will overrun the Terran Are you honestly trying to argue that a Terran CAN'T beat a Zerg now dude? Seriously? Want to know why you didn't beat that Protoss? Because you did not outplay him in every way like you claim. Stop thinking you are perfect or mechanically better than your Zerg and Protoss counterparts and start thinking about what you can do better instead. Man.. the whine is ridiculous. Want to know why Terran whiners are the most disliked? Because for some reason they seem to all think they are better than Protoss and Zerg players. When Protoss or Zerg complain they complain about their units sucking or whatever. Terrans complain about that and then say that they are better than the P's and Z's and can't ever win any games ever even though they are the superior player and never make mistakes... yah...... nope back in the day that zerg complained the most (especially idra), they said that terran players sucked. although this was back when I was playing z, and already thought the game was balanced already so /shrug Since beta terrans defended their domination saying that terran players are naturaly better than everyone else. That's where it came from and some of them are still using it in their rhetorics. They're not naturally better by any means, but there are definitely more top Terrans than top Zergs, and slightly more top Terrans than top Protosses. It's got nothing to do with natural ability; it's just random skewing. A lot of really good players happened to pick Terran. Yes, you are right. But if you consider only top players it's in fact the same thing. I said they have said "generally terrans are better players" and you said "generally better players play terran". Just observation. And i don't argue if it's true or not. Just that it's the same statement.
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On July 03 2012 05:17 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck. Read the thread, not just the biased OP, thanks.
Reading the thread, a few pages ago 'The stats in Korea are too small of a sample'
Now its all about TvZ in korea, rofl you guys make me laugh.
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On July 03 2012 05:18 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:10 Femari wrote:On July 03 2012 03:50 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 03:30 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 02:42 Flonomenalz wrote:On July 03 2012 02:36 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 02:32 The_Stampede wrote:On July 03 2012 02:30 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 01:32 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 00:59 Shiori wrote:
I tire of seeing debate over these graphs, because it's always the same:
If something agrees with the balance whine of the day, everyone who plays the apparently overpowered race claims it's "metagame." If something disagrees, those same people turn right around and take the stats as gospel.
It's pretty simple: watch the games. TvZ and PvZ are both broken because Zerg in general is broken. Yes, Zerg was underpowered at release, but they haven't been for a long time. The other thing to consider is that in many respects, there were simply more top level Korean T/P players in tournaments than Zerg. Nestea is a notoriously weak traveller, and DRG is actually pretty new in the scheme of the Zerg scene; same with Symbol. There was a long period of time in which you had Nestea and then a big void of skill beneath him as far as Zerg went. Even now, I can only think of less than 10 truly top Zerg players, but I can think of at least 20 Terrans and probably 15 Protoss.
Tl;dr when MKP or Hero beat Moon or something it doesn't mean the matchup is balanced. dumbest/most biased post ever plus flame baiting. a biased zerg response would be that zerg is just UP and nestea is just way better so he can win while all other zerg players who are equal in skill to T/P players cannot win due to UP race. see how stupid heavily biased comments are? Except mine's based in fact. If you look at the most mechanically proficient/creative players, you get a lot of Terrans, a decent number of Protosses, and a few Zergs. It's not biased; it's just the way it is. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're actually a moron. Zing! Feel free to back up your argument with facts rather than sniveling. I don't even play Terran and I can see that they have the most mechanically skilled players. What evidence could you POSSIBLY use to make this claim? Following the scene since release. Playing all races. Knowing what all races have to do during all stages of the game. Listening to what pro players say. Reading up on discussions. Asking random players. Asking people who off race. There might not be any mathematical formula that will give you an unquestionable answer, but everything points to the fact, and making the claim is not sensational at all. I will even go so far as to say that Terran being more mechanically demanding has turned the best terran players into the best players in the world, since they've constantly been improving at a pace that outweighs their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, who due to limited race designs will have to depend on Blizzard to buff them mathematically constantly to compensate. Unless Zerg/Protoss design changes dramatically, this will be the continuing trend throughout SC2s life. Terran gets nerfed, terran players get better, the other races get buffed to compensate. This'll eventually lead into Terran being nigh unplayable anywhere outside the absolute top level of play. It's a problem of shit design in essence. i agree with what you said. it does seem that terran is the race that best utilizes good mechanics and naturally the terran players will just get better and better while zerg/protoss players stagnate in the mechanical aspects of the game and will be buffed in order to keep up. but i was talking about skill in my post which i was meaning as a general term for the ability to win. and winning takes more than just mechanics. many games are lost due to bad decision making as well as limiting mechanics. edit: oh the other guy actually said terran players are not the most mechnically sound but the most creative too. LOL guess i cant argue against such heavy bias you win  I'm assuming by this you don't think Terran players have been the most creative players. Which I laugh at considering we are the race that has the most builds which by definition pretty much makes us the most creative/innovative race. I'm not saying I'm creative, but Terran players as a whole trump the other two races in creativity. Especially Protoss. Oh sweet Jesus... so we have come to this now.
Of course. That's the only path people can take if they don't want to deny the validity of the graphs.
The progression of thought is this:
If the Terran players are actually winning slightly over 50% of their games despite cries of imbalance, then there are 2 choices: The game is balanced and people need to stop whining, or Terran players are just amazingly better and more innovative than Zerg or Protoss players to overcome so much imbalance. I guess, for some people, sheer arrogance is an acceptable alternative to just admitting that any race needs time to innovate after a patch buffs other races/nerfs them.
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On July 03 2012 04:46 Tuczniak wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:38 zhurai wrote:On July 03 2012 03:42 mrtomjones wrote:On July 03 2012 02:07 MysteryTerran wrote:On July 03 2012 01:15 sieksdekciw wrote:On July 02 2012 22:29 Tsubbi wrote:On July 02 2012 22:26 Asha` wrote:On July 02 2012 22:23 Whole wrote:
Seems that Korean Terrans were busy figuring out the new TvZ while International Terrans were busy complaining about balance. All the korean Terrans complain about TvZ =p but they're just much better players so still win games. oh you! ofc they complain about z, 51% winrate must feel underpowered after 2 years of dominating They complain because it is ridiculous to be more mechanically skilled than your opponent and yet have no real chance of winning unless your opponent messes up. I love you for this post. This is 100% accurate also. I played a game the other day where I outplayed a Protoss completely and still lost. Like someone said earlier they just need a few Archons and to continuously warp in Chargelots and eventually you will overrun the Terran Are you honestly trying to argue that a Terran CAN'T beat a Zerg now dude? Seriously? Want to know why you didn't beat that Protoss? Because you did not outplay him in every way like you claim. Stop thinking you are perfect or mechanically better than your Zerg and Protoss counterparts and start thinking about what you can do better instead. Man.. the whine is ridiculous. Want to know why Terran whiners are the most disliked? Because for some reason they seem to all think they are better than Protoss and Zerg players. When Protoss or Zerg complain they complain about their units sucking or whatever. Terrans complain about that and then say that they are better than the P's and Z's and can't ever win any games ever even though they are the superior player and never make mistakes... yah...... nope back in the day that zerg complained the most (especially idra), they said that terran players sucked. although this was back when I was playing z, and already thought the game was balanced already so /shrug Since beta terrans defended their domination saying that terran players are naturaly better than everyone else. That's where it came from and some of them are still using it in their rhetorics.
Because it was pointed out the only reason why shitty Terrans won was because of the maps. The second the map pool changed all of a sudden all of the shitty Terran players went out the window. Very quickly.
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On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck.
The reason you don't understand anything is because you lack reading comprehension skills. Try again.
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On July 03 2012 04:49 Blezza wrote:
Well it looks like Terran were right after all, it was 55.3% which is 0.3% imbalance. Atleast most Terran players look pretty stupid now which is good.
Nice math 55,3% vs 44,7%. That would be 10,6% imbalance. And it would be even bigger if the international graph didn't include the Korean statistics.
So yeah, the only one made look stupid here would be you.
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Funny how these graphs normally feel how I do about each matchup as a protoss player doing ok in PvZs and have been having more trouble in PvT
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On July 03 2012 05:10 Femari wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 03:50 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 03:30 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 02:42 Flonomenalz wrote:On July 03 2012 02:36 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 02:32 The_Stampede wrote:On July 03 2012 02:30 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 01:32 Bluerain wrote:On July 03 2012 00:59 Shiori wrote:
I tire of seeing debate over these graphs, because it's always the same:
If something agrees with the balance whine of the day, everyone who plays the apparently overpowered race claims it's "metagame." If something disagrees, those same people turn right around and take the stats as gospel.
It's pretty simple: watch the games. TvZ and PvZ are both broken because Zerg in general is broken. Yes, Zerg was underpowered at release, but they haven't been for a long time. The other thing to consider is that in many respects, there were simply more top level Korean T/P players in tournaments than Zerg. Nestea is a notoriously weak traveller, and DRG is actually pretty new in the scheme of the Zerg scene; same with Symbol. There was a long period of time in which you had Nestea and then a big void of skill beneath him as far as Zerg went. Even now, I can only think of less than 10 truly top Zerg players, but I can think of at least 20 Terrans and probably 15 Protoss.
Tl;dr when MKP or Hero beat Moon or something it doesn't mean the matchup is balanced. dumbest/most biased post ever plus flame baiting. a biased zerg response would be that zerg is just UP and nestea is just way better so he can win while all other zerg players who are equal in skill to T/P players cannot win due to UP race. see how stupid heavily biased comments are? Except mine's based in fact. If you look at the most mechanically proficient/creative players, you get a lot of Terrans, a decent number of Protosses, and a few Zergs. It's not biased; it's just the way it is. Sorry to burst your bubble, but you're actually a moron. Zing! Feel free to back up your argument with facts rather than sniveling. I don't even play Terran and I can see that they have the most mechanically skilled players. What evidence could you POSSIBLY use to make this claim? Following the scene since release. Playing all races. Knowing what all races have to do during all stages of the game. Listening to what pro players say. Reading up on discussions. Asking random players. Asking people who off race. There might not be any mathematical formula that will give you an unquestionable answer, but everything points to the fact, and making the claim is not sensational at all. I will even go so far as to say that Terran being more mechanically demanding has turned the best terran players into the best players in the world, since they've constantly been improving at a pace that outweighs their Zerg and Protoss counterparts, who due to limited race designs will have to depend on Blizzard to buff them mathematically constantly to compensate. Unless Zerg/Protoss design changes dramatically, this will be the continuing trend throughout SC2s life. Terran gets nerfed, terran players get better, the other races get buffed to compensate. This'll eventually lead into Terran being nigh unplayable anywhere outside the absolute top level of play. It's a problem of shit design in essence. i agree with what you said. it does seem that terran is the race that best utilizes good mechanics and naturally the terran players will just get better and better while zerg/protoss players stagnate in the mechanical aspects of the game and will be buffed in order to keep up. but i was talking about skill in my post which i was meaning as a general term for the ability to win. and winning takes more than just mechanics. many games are lost due to bad decision making as well as limiting mechanics. edit: oh the other guy actually said terran players are not the most mechnically sound but the most creative too. LOL guess i cant argue against such heavy bias you win I'm assuming by this you don't think Terran players have been the most creative players. Which I laugh at considering we are the race that has the most builds which by definition pretty much makes us the most creative/innovative race. I'm not saying I'm creative, but Terran players as a whole trump the other two races in creativity. Especially Protoss.
The amount of builds Terran has is purely because of the versatility of the race, not because the players are more creative. The ability to defend from almost anything with bunkers is part of the reason why Terran has so many options (not saying bunkers are OP, I play Terran). Protoss and Zerg have very few builds that can consistently work, unlike Terran, they're pigeonholed into doing one of a very select amount of things if they want any chance at winning.
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On July 03 2012 04:49 canikizu wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:32 blade55555 wrote:On July 03 2012 03:01 canikizu wrote:On July 03 2012 02:33 SeaSwift wrote:On July 03 2012 00:54 platonichat wrote:On July 03 2012 00:40 SeaSwift wrote:On July 03 2012 00:32 Shiori wrote:On July 03 2012 00:28 Roggay wrote:On July 03 2012 00:09 Shiori wrote:
Incomplete set of data. Everyone who plays this game regularly knows that TvZ is utterly Zerg favoured, and that PvZ is utterly Zerg favoured if the Toss doesn't all-in. You don't need a graph to show this. Just look at the way you must play the game. Everyone who read TL regularly knows that you are a whiner too... Find me some professional Terrans (or honest Zergs) who think that TvZ isn't favouring Zerg right now. Besides, didn't you see the updated stats? Terran is at 41% if you factor those in. Considering Zerg was at 39% just last month, that actually isn't too bad at all considering how much whine was going round. edit: I was expecting something like a 25% winrate for Terran to justify all the whine. Nope, turns out that when Terran goes below 45% for the first time in the race's entire history it is enough to justify a forum explosion. Even forgetting about the fact that it was Terran at 39-41% last month, not Zerg, the fact that you expect a 25% winrate in TvZ in order to justify the MU being imbalanced shows you have no idea how this stuff works. This reddit post should be required reading for people to talk about these graphs. There is no way any race could get a 25% winrate especially not in the month after a change. Yeah, ignore the mistake. My apologies. I didn't say that. I didn't say that I "expect a 25% winrate in TvZ in order for the MU to be imbalanced". That is just putting words into my mouth. I said that there was so much whine - to the extent that the MU seemed to be literally impossible - and MKP etc were coming out with "10% winrate in practice" or 20% and the like in interviews. Comparatively, 41% is not bad at all. I don't think it will ever reach 25%, no matter how imbalance the MU is. Like anything else, it gets harder and harder to reach higher/lower percent. People will notice that it is not working (GSTL stop sending Terran out), or Terran will fail to qualify for tournaments (qualifier stat doesn't appear on TLPD). So if there're no Terran, there're no stats to count. Also Korean stats has small size, so one or two games mean so much more. For example, Teaja went 7-2 vs Zerg last month, so Teaja alone contribue 5+% of the winrate. With Korean TvZ 50.9%-49.1%, I'd say Teaja streak make all the difference. Well you also have to realize for all of june Symbol went 8-2 zvt as he has been crushing players in general almost no matter the race in GSTL/GSL. You can count Teaja because statistically, he's the outliner. You can't count Symbol because he's not an outliner within Zerg race. Other players, such as DRG, Moon, Sniper,.... also posted similar results in last month. So while Symbol posted the best result out of all, it's not enough to call him outliner.
canikizu:
I am having a hard time interpreting the error bars in the BW graphs.
How do you calculate these and which parameters do you use ?
From what I could extract from your tweets you perform a test of the hypothesis that the winrate is 50% in a matchup and then somehow measure the significance of the result.
I'd like to see your calculations.
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On July 03 2012 05:23 Blezza wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:17 IshinShishi wrote:On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck. Read the thread, not just the biased OP, thanks. Reading the thread, a few pages ago 'The stats in Korea are too small of a sample' Now its all about TvZ in korea, rofl you guys make me laugh.
Both valid, 100 games is a lot worse than 340, you guys talk about people whining, this desperate try of denial doesn't seem much better at all.
I am also still waiting for the TvP results including all the pertinent tournaments.
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On July 03 2012 05:25 ErAsc2 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 04:49 Blezza wrote:
Well it looks like Terran were right after all, it was 55.3% which is 0.3% imbalance. Atleast most Terran players look pretty stupid now which is good. Nice math 55,3% vs 44,7%. That would be 10,6% imbalance. And it would be even bigger if the international graph didn't include the Korean statistics. So yeah, the only one made look stupid here would be you.
Well Browder said that anything within 55% is a balanced MU and therefore they will patch it if it goes above that.
See the problem you have is that you say dumb stuff without knowing anything, and as if anyone on this planet is dumb enough to make such an error in maths. Seriously man.
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On July 03 2012 05:24 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck. The reason you don't understand anything is because you lack reading comprehension skills. Try again.
I wish I could give you a reward for what's probably the most generic, overused "rebuttal" ever uttered on the internet xD
But seriously, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I will say that the powers that be do indeed take into account stats like these, so we can go back and forth at each other all you want, but in the end, I'm glad these stats are out because they probably have an impact on the decisions of the balance team
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I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven.
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On July 03 2012 05:31 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:24 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck. The reason you don't understand anything is because you lack reading comprehension skills. Try again. I wish I could give you a reward for what's probably the most generic, overused "rebuttal" ever uttered on the internet xD But seriously, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I will say that the powers that be do indeed take into account stats like these, so we can go back and forth at each other all you want, but in the end, I'm glad these stats are out because they probably have an impact on the decisions of the balance team
No, you literally lack reading comprehension. If you had bothered even reading past the first two posts you would have seen that these initial statistics do not include all tournaments and qualifiers, and an updated winloss ratio was at 41% - 59% TvZ in Korea. I don't give much value to winratios when trying to deduce balance, but regardless. You need to l2read.
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Why do you have to look at win loss statistics to see how balanced the game is? All you have to do is watch the actual games. Go watch gsl, gstl, tsl, mlg qualifier, osl prelim and try to tell me with a straight face that TvZ is balanced.
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On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven.
Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining.
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On July 03 2012 05:51 -TesteR- wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven. Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining.
They're the only race so far to even have a fanclub for crying.
Just saying
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On July 03 2012 05:52 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven. Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining. They're the only race so far to even have a fanclub for crying. Just saying
The Sad Zealot was a dark time indeed, 30% win rates are about the only thing that can break a Protoss spirit.
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On July 03 2012 05:52 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:51 -TesteR- wrote:On July 03 2012 05:39 Sakkreth wrote:
I wonder what terran players would be saying if their race was historically as weak on average as protoss... And saying things like "But terrans are more skilled in general" is just hilarious, it's completely subjective and cannot be proven. Protoss has gotten the short end of the stick throughout the history of sc2 judging by theses graphs, and even now as seen by the TvP winrates, but Protoss are a proud warrior race, so there is not much crying and whining. They're the only race so far to even have a fanclub for crying. Just saying
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=339852
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On July 03 2012 05:47 Dalavita wrote:Show nested quote +On July 03 2012 05:31 HolyArrow wrote:On July 03 2012 05:24 Dalavita wrote:On July 03 2012 05:15 HolyArrow wrote:
Funny how Protoss was OP flavor of the month a little while back when TvP has been T-favored in May and June. And even now, with the sheer amount of whining about Zerg, it turns out that ZvT is actually fairly close. I don't understand how people can balance whine when their race is at an above 50% winrate in every matchup at the top level. When you do that, there's only one thing for certain: you look entitled as fuck. The reason you don't understand anything is because you lack reading comprehension skills. Try again. I wish I could give you a reward for what's probably the most generic, overused "rebuttal" ever uttered on the internet xD But seriously, I'm not interested in arguing with you. I will say that the powers that be do indeed take into account stats like these, so we can go back and forth at each other all you want, but in the end, I'm glad these stats are out because they probably have an impact on the decisions of the balance team No, you literally lack reading comprehension. If you had bothered even reading past the first two posts you would have seen that these initial statistics do not include all tournaments and qualifiers, and an updated winloss ratio was at 41% - 59% TvZ in Korea. I don't give much value to winratios when trying to deduce balance, but regardless. You need to l2read.
Even with the updated stats, my point still stands in respect to PvT. Protoss has even been buffed slightly with the observer build time, yet look at how things are now. Anyway, if the stats are actually different, then OP has a responsibility to edit his post to reflect them. Not everyone has time to read the thread to see of the OP is actually true, these threads have become a regular thing so many people assume that the OP is credible.
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EPT
