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On July 11 2012 05:27 boomudead1 wrote:
forced into 2rax.. its not like zerg never been holding off 2rax b4..
BBB was the best Terran player ever, just everyone else was a year and half behind to realize it!
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In my honest opinion i think they should revert the ghost nerf. Blizzards arguments for the nerf used to be: counters tier 3 unit, makes terran play passive. If i look at the queen in combination with the infestor all i can think about is: Both serve passive roles, both work vs most units (queen as support, infestor as the end all be all). They serve bigger roles than the ghost ever did (and they require less babysitting). This would sque (skew?) the balance back to 50-50 ish, at least I think.
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On July 11 2012 04:26 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 10 2012 14:54 zmansman17 wrote:On July 10 2012 12:11 vthree wrote:On July 10 2012 10:19 RoboBob wrote:
The Korea TvZ numbers really shocked me. So I went through just the current GSL's numbers so far. Keep in mind that many of these games will be included in July results. TvZ is right now 28-47. 37% win rate for Terran, 63% win rate for Zerg. In other words, even more imbalanced than the June International results.
I'm pretty sure that even Blizzard has admitted that a 20% gap in a matchup indicates a balance issue. Of course this is only one tournament (albeit with a large sample size and the highest skilled players in the world), but still.
GSL Code A+S TVZ
Nestea v STC 2-0
SuHoSin v MVP 1-2
Sniper v Supernova 1-2
YuGiOh v MKP 1-2
Symbol v MKP 2-0
DRG v Maru 2-1
Violet v Maru 2-1
Leenock v Ryung 0-2
Leenock v Taeja 0-2
Violet v MVP 2-0
Symbol v MKP 2-1
DRG v Ryung 2-1
Nestea v Supernova 2-0
Nestea v Supernova 2-1
Monster v Jjakji 0-2
YuGiOh v Harrier 2-0
Freaky v Bomber 1-2
Losira v Hack 1-2
Total: 25-21
GSTL TVZ
Life v TL 1-0
Life v Slayers 1-0
Symbol v Fnatic 1-0
Losira v TSL 1-0
Symbol v IM 3-0
Moon v IM 1-0
Byul v IM 1-0
Annyeong v Fnatic 1-0
Moon v Prime 2-0
BBong v TSL 0-1
Sniper v Fnatic 2-0
Coca v Prime 3-0
KingKong v HoSeo 0-1
Curious v HoSeo 0-1
Ragnarok v FXO 0-1
Shine v FXO 1-0
Hyun v HoSeo 1-1
Symbol v HoSeo 0-1
Revival v HoSeo 1-0
Lucky v Startale 1-1
Leenock vs Startale 1-0
Total: 22-7
Grand Total: 47-28. 63% Z v 37% T. It also becomes pretty obvious if you look at top 10 terran and zerg korean ELO. Most terrans are 3/7 - 4/6 in their last 10 TvZ and most zergs are 6/4 - 7/3 in their last 10 ZvTs. It is not a huge sample size. But considering the top terrans where mainly top TvZ players, it is obvious that the nerf had a HUGE impact. Whether this can be countered by new builds is still not conclusive but given the current trend, it doesn't look good. It seems instead of terrans being able to find a new build, zergs are getting more accustom to getting max eco while remaining safe and getting a huge eco lead (plus creep) in the mid game. Maybe maps need to be tweaked to make the 3rd harder to take? It seems there is no way to punish a quick 3rd. So terrans now go 3 CCs which let's the zerg take a fourth. And 4 base zerg means BL/Corr/Infestor army. I think maps could be tweaked a bit. Cloud Kingdom comes to mind and other maps where Zergs can place overlords for semi-permanent scouting with impunity. Now with ol speed, they can basically scout your base freely (and always count your gas at both bases), as well as have this semi-permanent scouting at key locations. The intel from this is huge because if you are going for a crisp timing attack, the Zerg can easily scout your attack and pump out a bunch of units and morph banelings. The whole concept of Zerg is the tough choice of having to drone or make units. That tension is what creates the Zerg race. Now Zergs can do whatever they want for the most part because they can scout everything you do (if they are half decent players) and react accordingly. It seems to me that Zergs should never lose if they play fairly well. If the necessary condition of scouting and producing units/drones based on that scouting is fulfilled, I think Terran is hard pressed to win the game. And those necessary conditions are very easy to fulfill. This. Map like cloud kingdom are good if you just minus the perma overlord placement map hack it could be good. But wow is it hard to TvZ now. Seeing how terran are 2 raxing every game is rather silly imo. It like the evolution of the metagame instead of moving forward, it just took a big leap back. i was hoping that the trend of terran going bio at MLG would become the new standard but it seems it wasnt too stable.
Yeah I feel like TvZ has taken a Giant leap backwards. It really is just a big 11/11 rax fest or some variant. I used to win games against great players with macro games. Now I lose most of my TvZ, but if I win it's with cheese. It's really sad.
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On July 11 2012 05:56 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:26 SheaR619 wrote:On July 10 2012 14:54 zmansman17 wrote:On July 10 2012 12:11 vthree wrote:On July 10 2012 10:19 RoboBob wrote:
The Korea TvZ numbers really shocked me. So I went through just the current GSL's numbers so far. Keep in mind that many of these games will be included in July results. TvZ is right now 28-47. 37% win rate for Terran, 63% win rate for Zerg. In other words, even more imbalanced than the June International results.
I'm pretty sure that even Blizzard has admitted that a 20% gap in a matchup indicates a balance issue. Of course this is only one tournament (albeit with a large sample size and the highest skilled players in the world), but still.
GSL Code A+S TVZ
Nestea v STC 2-0
SuHoSin v MVP 1-2
Sniper v Supernova 1-2
YuGiOh v MKP 1-2
Symbol v MKP 2-0
DRG v Maru 2-1
Violet v Maru 2-1
Leenock v Ryung 0-2
Leenock v Taeja 0-2
Violet v MVP 2-0
Symbol v MKP 2-1
DRG v Ryung 2-1
Nestea v Supernova 2-0
Nestea v Supernova 2-1
Monster v Jjakji 0-2
YuGiOh v Harrier 2-0
Freaky v Bomber 1-2
Losira v Hack 1-2
Total: 25-21
GSTL TVZ
Life v TL 1-0
Life v Slayers 1-0
Symbol v Fnatic 1-0
Losira v TSL 1-0
Symbol v IM 3-0
Moon v IM 1-0
Byul v IM 1-0
Annyeong v Fnatic 1-0
Moon v Prime 2-0
BBong v TSL 0-1
Sniper v Fnatic 2-0
Coca v Prime 3-0
KingKong v HoSeo 0-1
Curious v HoSeo 0-1
Ragnarok v FXO 0-1
Shine v FXO 1-0
Hyun v HoSeo 1-1
Symbol v HoSeo 0-1
Revival v HoSeo 1-0
Lucky v Startale 1-1
Leenock vs Startale 1-0
Total: 22-7
Grand Total: 47-28. 63% Z v 37% T. It also becomes pretty obvious if you look at top 10 terran and zerg korean ELO. Most terrans are 3/7 - 4/6 in their last 10 TvZ and most zergs are 6/4 - 7/3 in their last 10 ZvTs. It is not a huge sample size. But considering the top terrans where mainly top TvZ players, it is obvious that the nerf had a HUGE impact. Whether this can be countered by new builds is still not conclusive but given the current trend, it doesn't look good. It seems instead of terrans being able to find a new build, zergs are getting more accustom to getting max eco while remaining safe and getting a huge eco lead (plus creep) in the mid game. Maybe maps need to be tweaked to make the 3rd harder to take? It seems there is no way to punish a quick 3rd. So terrans now go 3 CCs which let's the zerg take a fourth. And 4 base zerg means BL/Corr/Infestor army. I think maps could be tweaked a bit. Cloud Kingdom comes to mind and other maps where Zergs can place overlords for semi-permanent scouting with impunity. Now with ol speed, they can basically scout your base freely (and always count your gas at both bases), as well as have this semi-permanent scouting at key locations. The intel from this is huge because if you are going for a crisp timing attack, the Zerg can easily scout your attack and pump out a bunch of units and morph banelings. The whole concept of Zerg is the tough choice of having to drone or make units. That tension is what creates the Zerg race. Now Zergs can do whatever they want for the most part because they can scout everything you do (if they are half decent players) and react accordingly. It seems to me that Zergs should never lose if they play fairly well. If the necessary condition of scouting and producing units/drones based on that scouting is fulfilled, I think Terran is hard pressed to win the game. And those necessary conditions are very easy to fulfill. This. Map like cloud kingdom are good if you just minus the perma overlord placement map hack it could be good. But wow is it hard to TvZ now. Seeing how terran are 2 raxing every game is rather silly imo. It like the evolution of the metagame instead of moving forward, it just took a big leap back. i was hoping that the trend of terran going bio at MLG would become the new standard but it seems it wasnt too stable. Yeah I feel like TvZ has taken a Giant leap backwards. It really is just a big 11/11 rax fest or some variant. I used to win games against great players with macro games. Now I lose most of my TvZ, but if I win it's with cheese. It's really sad.
Without sounding to much like QQ, I strongly disagree. Its not possible to chesse zerg anymore, queens are to good at holding off early aggresion with a spine or to and zerg know exactly how to react to different stragegies.
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On July 11 2012 06:13 Phays wrote:
Without sounding to much like QQ, I strongly disagree. Its not possible to chesse zerg anymore, queens are to good at holding off early aggresion with a spine or to and zerg know exactly how to react to different stragegies.
Well, that's not quite right. The reason 11/11 has become so popular again is that it hits before the 4-6 queen strategy happens, so it's basically just as good as it used to be (without considering the followups). It's one of the few rushes that isn't much affected by the queen range buff and new metagame.
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On July 11 2012 05:43 Yngvi wrote:
In my honest opinion i think they should revert the ghost nerf. Blizzards arguments for the nerf used to be: counters tier 3 unit, makes terran play passive. If i look at the queen in combination with the infestor all i can think about is: Both serve passive roles, both work vs most units (queen as support, infestor as the end all be all). They serve bigger roles than the ghost ever did (and they require less babysitting). This would sque (skew?) the balance back to 50-50 ish, at least I think.
I don't think this would be a suited answer. Ghost vs zerg was just really too good before the patch, coupled with tanks ghosts could deal with any zerg composition. I remember Empirehappy rush for ghost/tank every single game, it was just horrible to watch.
The fact is, whatever people says, terran is still competitive in lategale versus zerg if he got a suffisent economy. Even the best zerg in the world can't win if the terran have more economy that the zerg. The real problem here lies down to the early/midgame, where it seems zerg have it easy to get really ahead in economy.
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On July 11 2012 07:43 kubiks wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 05:43 Yngvi wrote:
In my honest opinion i think they should revert the ghost nerf. Blizzards arguments for the nerf used to be: counters tier 3 unit, makes terran play passive. If i look at the queen in combination with the infestor all i can think about is: Both serve passive roles, both work vs most units (queen as support, infestor as the end all be all). They serve bigger roles than the ghost ever did (and they require less babysitting). This would sque (skew?) the balance back to 50-50 ish, at least I think.
I don't think this would be a suited answer. Ghost vs zerg was just really too good before the patch, coupled with tanks ghosts could deal with any zerg composition. I remember Empirehappy rush for ghost/tank every single game, it was just horrible to watch. The fact is, whatever people says, terran is still competitive in lategale versus zerg if he got a suffisent economy. Even the best zerg in the world can't win if the terran have more economy that the zerg. The real problem here lies down to the early/midgame, where it seems zerg have it easy to get really ahead in economy.
and bl infestor or ultra infestor, or infestor anything, cant deal with any terran composition? biased oppinion is biased.
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On July 11 2012 05:09 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 04:42 nvrs wrote:On July 11 2012 04:16 Atrimex wrote:
Who cares about this stats? Terran has dropped under 19% in EU Grandmaster. And this was predictable since patch 1.4. Its not possible to play terran anymore. No no no, give it 5-6 months, raven strategies have not been explored enough yet... Blizzards balancing team not only fucked up majorly with their last patch, they also are reluctant to admit it. Personally i ve stopped playing altogether and i really don't care about that, what i do care about is the various touranments that i have been paying to watch and have all turned into borefests for me. ZvT was a great mu to watch, they turned it to utter crap and in addition to that they also prevented too many TvTs from happening (the best mirror mu). I guess i won't be paying to watch any more tourneys until this crap gets fixed stop it, blizzard has already said that TvZ has been on their "balance radar" since the last patch. everything else (TvZ being a good MU before and "how has more marines" being the best mirror) is also just your personal opinion.
Well they are surely taking their time with watching that "radar", maybe the swarm is stealth or something but my radar is full of a single huge freaking signal which is Z. Judging by the latest tourney results, the numbers have never been so horrible in the past, even in the period when Terran was clearly overpowered.
Now about TvT being the best mu and TvZ being in a great state before the latest patch are my personal opinion but it also happens to be the personal opinion of many many SC2 players as well. It's a matter of taste i guess, but i won't be paying any more for watching this crap.
p.s. the premise that T is by design the race with the higher skill ceiling and higher skill/reward ratio was been debated to death in these forums and i tend to agree with it. To support this claim one could start by saying the obvious, it requires more micro and their backbone units perfomance is muliplied by the proper application of it, a statement which is not true to the same extent for the other races backbone units. I can't force anyone to agree with the above common place though.
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I play terran and have since sc2 first came out, and every time I hear about blizzard and terran being on there balance radar it has me worried. In the history of sc2 T has only ever been buffed twice and it was BC's and the thor, sooo sure playing T is super hard right now but last patch we didn't get nerfed, so its like we got buffed last patch so why all the QQ
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On July 11 2012 06:13 Phays wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 05:56 zmansman17 wrote:On July 11 2012 04:26 SheaR619 wrote:On July 10 2012 14:54 zmansman17 wrote:On July 10 2012 12:11 vthree wrote:On July 10 2012 10:19 RoboBob wrote:
The Korea TvZ numbers really shocked me. So I went through just the current GSL's numbers so far. Keep in mind that many of these games will be included in July results. TvZ is right now 28-47. 37% win rate for Terran, 63% win rate for Zerg. In other words, even more imbalanced than the June International results.
I'm pretty sure that even Blizzard has admitted that a 20% gap in a matchup indicates a balance issue. Of course this is only one tournament (albeit with a large sample size and the highest skilled players in the world), but still.
GSL Code A+S TVZ
Nestea v STC 2-0
SuHoSin v MVP 1-2
Sniper v Supernova 1-2
YuGiOh v MKP 1-2
Symbol v MKP 2-0
DRG v Maru 2-1
Violet v Maru 2-1
Leenock v Ryung 0-2
Leenock v Taeja 0-2
Violet v MVP 2-0
Symbol v MKP 2-1
DRG v Ryung 2-1
Nestea v Supernova 2-0
Nestea v Supernova 2-1
Monster v Jjakji 0-2
YuGiOh v Harrier 2-0
Freaky v Bomber 1-2
Losira v Hack 1-2
Total: 25-21
GSTL TVZ
Life v TL 1-0
Life v Slayers 1-0
Symbol v Fnatic 1-0
Losira v TSL 1-0
Symbol v IM 3-0
Moon v IM 1-0
Byul v IM 1-0
Annyeong v Fnatic 1-0
Moon v Prime 2-0
BBong v TSL 0-1
Sniper v Fnatic 2-0
Coca v Prime 3-0
KingKong v HoSeo 0-1
Curious v HoSeo 0-1
Ragnarok v FXO 0-1
Shine v FXO 1-0
Hyun v HoSeo 1-1
Symbol v HoSeo 0-1
Revival v HoSeo 1-0
Lucky v Startale 1-1
Leenock vs Startale 1-0
Total: 22-7
Grand Total: 47-28. 63% Z v 37% T. It also becomes pretty obvious if you look at top 10 terran and zerg korean ELO. Most terrans are 3/7 - 4/6 in their last 10 TvZ and most zergs are 6/4 - 7/3 in their last 10 ZvTs. It is not a huge sample size. But considering the top terrans where mainly top TvZ players, it is obvious that the nerf had a HUGE impact. Whether this can be countered by new builds is still not conclusive but given the current trend, it doesn't look good. It seems instead of terrans being able to find a new build, zergs are getting more accustom to getting max eco while remaining safe and getting a huge eco lead (plus creep) in the mid game. Maybe maps need to be tweaked to make the 3rd harder to take? It seems there is no way to punish a quick 3rd. So terrans now go 3 CCs which let's the zerg take a fourth. And 4 base zerg means BL/Corr/Infestor army. I think maps could be tweaked a bit. Cloud Kingdom comes to mind and other maps where Zergs can place overlords for semi-permanent scouting with impunity. Now with ol speed, they can basically scout your base freely (and always count your gas at both bases), as well as have this semi-permanent scouting at key locations. The intel from this is huge because if you are going for a crisp timing attack, the Zerg can easily scout your attack and pump out a bunch of units and morph banelings. The whole concept of Zerg is the tough choice of having to drone or make units. That tension is what creates the Zerg race. Now Zergs can do whatever they want for the most part because they can scout everything you do (if they are half decent players) and react accordingly. It seems to me that Zergs should never lose if they play fairly well. If the necessary condition of scouting and producing units/drones based on that scouting is fulfilled, I think Terran is hard pressed to win the game. And those necessary conditions are very easy to fulfill. This. Map like cloud kingdom are good if you just minus the perma overlord placement map hack it could be good. But wow is it hard to TvZ now. Seeing how terran are 2 raxing every game is rather silly imo. It like the evolution of the metagame instead of moving forward, it just took a big leap back. i was hoping that the trend of terran going bio at MLG would become the new standard but it seems it wasnt too stable. Yeah I feel like TvZ has taken a Giant leap backwards. It really is just a big 11/11 rax fest or some variant. I used to win games against great players with macro games. Now I lose most of my TvZ, but if I win it's with cheese. It's really sad. Without sounding to much like QQ, I strongly disagree. Its not possible to chesse zerg anymore, queens are to good at holding off early aggresion with a spine or to and zerg know exactly how to react to different stragegies.
I'm not saying that 11/11 rax or any cheeses are good builds. My win rates may be low. And the builds rely on Zergs making huge mistakes. But when you consider the alternative..
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EPT
