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On June 10 2012 02:44 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:42 Wildmoon wrote:On June 10 2012 02:35 Snowbear wrote:After reading most of the comments: - Blizzard gives protoss a harass unit, better defence, an option to transport army back. - Blizzard gives zerg a unit that can pull tanks out of the siegeline + dark swarm + a crazy ultralisk - Blizzard gives terran a 1a mech unit (warhound), a spidermine that can be okay lategame and a battle hellion that is actually not so strong. >>> Thanks to these changes: 1) TvP will still be bio only, since mech really sucks (sorry guys, battle hellion won't save us), but this time it will be even worse then in WOL: harass unit for protoss + recall back when caught in a bad possition = pure nightmare. 2) TvZ will be tank rine medivac marauder and maybe some warhounds. Tanks and key units will be pulled out the army by vipers. Dark swarm will own bio. Ultralisks destroy terrans already ( + Show Spoiler +watch stephano vs polt, where polt was not behind but still saw his army melting ), and with their burrow trick they will be much better. Broodlord + infestor will be even more funny since the only anti-air is: thor, marine, viking, bc. A combination of broodlord + infestor + viper (darkswarm + pulling things out of army) will be unbeatable. Pure mech in tvz won't be possible, or do you really believe that thors, vikings and marines will be enough as anti air? Vikings vs muta's suck. Marines need grades, stim and shields (= gas not spent on mech). The thor is good vs mutas when the mutas clump. When they magic box, you will need a big amount of thors (= huge amount of gas, gas not spent to mines, warhounds >>> needed vs ultralisks). This is how it would be if the game was released today. I believe blizzard will fix it, but a lot of changes will have to be made! Why Warhound is needed vs Ultralisks? and I love how you know everything will turn out. Because I suspect the warhound to be the only unit (besides the marauder) that can compete with the ultralisk? And tell me where I was wrong in my analyses please.
Warhound specialized in dealing with mechanical unit which Ultralisk is not unlike marauder which does bonus damage against armored unit. I don't think Warhound will be good against Ultralisk and it has potential to be useless in TvZ.
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On June 10 2012 02:42 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Zerg will have no trouble dealing with these mines. I can't imagine with a 10 second timer to micro the unit into isolation or the ability to kill the unit to prevent the mine from exploding makes a very effective unit (and I say unit, because it costs supply), especially against Zerg.
But the big thing is that the mines cost 75/25 and only take up one supply. They do 200 damage, so there are very few units in the game they cannot trade efficiently with. There is no air unit in the game they do not trade with efficiently. The AOE damage is a bonus.
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The only thing that makes me a little nervous about HoTS is the Viper's pull ability. Watching collossus and seige tanks get helplessly raped kinda gives me that bad feeling that watching a 1/1/1 kill a protoss player before it got nerfed, or watching a zerg player die to a 2-rax + SCV allin before it was nerfed. Then again, one noticable thing about those battles was that the Terran or Protoss army was always consisting of a lot of expensive units.
Maybe the right counter to such a high number of swarm hosts will be to simply mass cheaper units. If the swarm hosts are sufficiently expensive and require enough supply, then the actual fighting army won't be strong enough to fight off the terran/toss. The situation is a bit stickier for Terran though, since mass marines, which would seem like the most obvious choice at first, are susceptible to blinding cloud.
At any rate, I'm sure the energy and range will be balanced before release.
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On June 10 2012 02:45 Solo Terran wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Swarm hosts will not deal with those mines since you just just unburrow them and run away as soon as you see locusts. Then when the locusts die you run in an burrow them before the swarm hosts can get another shot off.
sounds like a micro war to me, explain to me how this is bad?
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Is the Hots TvZ game released yet ?
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On June 10 2012 02:46 HeroMystic wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:33 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:28 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 02:26 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:23 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 02:21 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:20 s3rp wrote:On June 10 2012 02:19 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:17 s3rp wrote:
What really funny here is people basically suggest Terran to build Air/Mech and Bio units combined not considering there's no way to upgrade everything well enough to compete with armies that only need 1 or 2 sets of Upgrades. Upgrades are fucking important for everything. bro if you don't have vikings with mech then what are you doing? they support tanks with their high range and increased vision, you absolutely need air units as Terran. Dude there are people suggesting adding Marine to your Mech/Air army. How is that going to work ? I'm not suggesting that. I'm suggesting that if a terran doesn't have a starport, they are doing it wrong. I think thor/mine/viking will be the AA you need, and if not? raven with PDD will surely help. And i disagree with that Thors fucking suck if they don't get a change and Mines would be totally unreliable to consistently deal damage. The biggest problem is Mech cannot take more than 3 Bases safely and subsequently doesn't have enough Gas to finance an army strong enough while also keeping up with Upgrades on everything. i don't see how this changes. why don't we calm down the rage until the beta comes out and balance actually matters? I'm willing to wait and see but what they showed here is nothing to be excited about . Its looks like a turd and you guys are trying to polish it for Terran players but it still looks like a polished turd. the battle reports reminded me of BW, so yeah, I'm FUCKING excited the way this game is turning out. I'm sorry that Toss/Zerg are getting all the love, but I'm sure as fucking shit that blizzard won't leave terran in the dust. This is an incomplete game and it already looks fucking awesome. The TvZ in particular had engagements all over the map, the supplies never reached 200/200 death ball status and we actually got to see a lot of tech. GRANTED these weren't pros playing their A game but it still looked fucking cool, I can't wait to see what pros can do with the game... I bet reapers in WoL looked fair to you? then some guy named morrow shit on everyone with reapers, probably still thought they were fair huh? I play zerg but I keep my bias under control, maybe you should to until we get an open beta. you and zmansman17 are just circle jerking, we get it ok? you are unhappy, get over it. Granted I'm Terran, but I'm not gonna commentate on balance 'n such at this stage of the game. However, I have to admit that Terran is looking pretty damn boring this update compared to Protoss and Zerg. And I'm not talking about balance (because I'm sure Terran will still win games), I'm talking about unit designs. We got an A-Moving Mech Buster and a mechanical Zealot with no speed boost. We have laughably bad Reapers with Combat Drugs, and we have Mines. The Mines are the only unit I'm legitmately excited for because of all the useful applications I can see in them. Combined with the Ghost nerf, and there just isn't any "fun" unit within the Terran army anymore. Zerg and Protoss got some absolutely crazy shit and as a Terran player that makes me pretty jealous. I fucking love the Raven, and I want to use it more. However it costs so much gas and takes a year and a half to upgrade that there's no plausible way to use it in the game until you hit late game.
Yeah I think this is how a lot of Terrans feel. We wanted late game options. We wanted to use the Raven. We wanted the ghost back. And what do we get: microless battle hellion and a mediocre mech unit
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Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM
Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRg
Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM
Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome
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On June 10 2012 02:50 zezamer wrote:
Is the Hots TvZ game released yet ?
Watch the MLG red rebroadcast from yesterday if it's still up. Go to 2:10.
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On June 10 2012 02:48 alexanderzero wrote:
The only thing that makes me a little nervous about HoTS is the Viper's pull ability. Watching collossus and seige tanks get helplessly raped kinda gives me that bad feeling that watching a 1/1/1 kill a protoss player before it got nerfed, or watching a zerg player die to a 2-rax + SCV allin before it was nerfed. Then again, one noticable thing about those battles was that the Terran or Protoss army was always consisting of a lot of expensive units.
Maybe the right counter to such a high number of swarm hosts will be to simply mass cheaper units. If the swarm hosts are sufficiently expensive and require enough supply, then the actual fighting army won't be strong enough to fight off the terran/toss. The situation is a bit stickier for Terran though, since mass marines, which would seem like the most obvious choice at first, are susceptible to blinding cloud.
At any rate, I'm sure the energy and range will be balanced before release.
The ability has range 7 from what people are saying. That means it has the same range as a missile turret and way less range than a viking. The viper also has 120 health, which makes it one of the more fragile casters in the game. Players will figure out how to zone these units out.
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On June 10 2012 02:50 zezamer wrote:
Is the Hots TvZ game released yet ?
Yes. It was on MLG stream yesterday, can't find it on youtube atm though.
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Need that TvP Battle Report... would answer some of the questions that are bouncing around in my head. Hopefully they do mirror Battle Reports too, that Blinding Cloud must make ZvZ interesting to say the least.
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On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome
Hahaha the game needs more awesome moments like these lol! Also, wtf Stork playing 
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On June 10 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:42 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Zerg will have no trouble dealing with these mines. I can't imagine with a 10 second timer to micro the unit into isolation or the ability to kill the unit to prevent the mine from exploding makes a very effective unit (and I say unit, because it costs supply), especially against Zerg. But the big thing is that the mines cost 75/25 and only take up one supply. They do 200 damage, so there are very few units in the game they cannot trade efficiently with. There is no air unit in the game they do not trade with efficiently. The AOE damage is a bonus.
You're forgetting a few important points though. The opportunity cost of making that mine, the time spent in placing that mine and the technology created to build that mine instead of other tech routes.
And if a zergling hits the mine, It's a 25 mineral for 75/25 trade, if the unit is just run into the army (killed before detonation), or easily microed.
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On June 10 2012 02:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Need that TvP Battle Report... would answer some of the questions that are bouncing around in my head. Hopefully they do mirror Battle Reports too, that Blinding Cloud must make ZvZ interesting to say the least.
ZvZ: An endless war of lings and banes throughout the midgame, with a furious battle for air superiority going on at the same time? Actually, that would be quite Brood War esque wouldn't it? Not sure if that's a good thing for ZvZ though haha.
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On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome
lol im soooooooooo jelous
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On June 10 2012 02:33 Firesilver wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:32 AXygnus wrote:
Wondering. What if you kill the unit wih a mine attached? Does the mine dud or does it explode as the unit dies as well? Kennigit said it doesn't explode if its killed.
Yeah, if the unit is killed, it should explode. Since it's going to die anyways (most of the time), it's just much easier to kill the mined unit instead of separating it from the rest of the army.
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On June 10 2012 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:42 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Zerg will have no trouble dealing with these mines. I can't imagine with a 10 second timer to micro the unit into isolation or the ability to kill the unit to prevent the mine from exploding makes a very effective unit (and I say unit, because it costs supply), especially against Zerg. But the big thing is that the mines cost 75/25 and only take up one supply. They do 200 damage, so there are very few units in the game they cannot trade efficiently with. There is no air unit in the game they do not trade with efficiently. The AOE damage is a bonus. You're forgetting a few important points though. The opportunity cost of making that mine, the time spent in placing that mine and the technology created to build that mine instead of other tech routes. And if a zergling hits the mine, It's a 25 mineral for 75/25 trade, if the unit is just run into the army (killed before detonation), or easily microed.
Doesn't sound like a problem to me. It is a unit that forces your opponent to micro, trades efficiently with all but a hand full of units, can be built with a reactor and requires detection to remove.
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On June 10 2012 02:49 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:45 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Swarm hosts will not deal with those mines since you just just unburrow them and run away as soon as you see locusts. Then when the locusts die you run in an burrow them before the swarm hosts can get another shot off. sounds like a micro war to me, explain to me how this is bad?
If SmileZerg is right about Timed units not triggering Widow Mines at all, Locusts shouldn't pick them up to begin with.
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On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome
is that flash playing protoss? Holy shit. Terran is done.
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On June 10 2012 02:57 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome is that flash playing protoss? Holy shit. Terran is done.
Flash still plays Terran normally in SC2 
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EPT
