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On June 10 2012 02:55 AXygnus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:33 Firesilver wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 AXygnus wrote:
Wondering. What if you kill the unit wih a mine attached? Does the mine dud or does it explode as the unit dies as well? Kennigit said it doesn't explode if its killed. Yeah, if the unit is killed, it should explode. Since it's going to die anyways (most of the time), it's just much easier to kill the mined unit instead of separating it from the rest of the army.
I think so too, but time will tell how Blizzard feel about this and if they decide to change it. IIRC A seeker missile still travels to the spot the targeted unit was when it died, so I feel the mine should just stop following the unit if it dies but explode in the place where it died in my opinion.
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On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome
Oh man, mine drops are going to be the worst thing in the world. You can put 8 of those things in a single medivac...4 in the main, 4 in the natural.
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On June 10 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome Oh man, mine drops are going to be the worst thing in the world. You can put 8 of those things in a single medivac...4 in the main, 4 in the natural.
1-1-1 early game medivac-mine drop? One can only hope.
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On June 10 2012 02:54 alexanderzero wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:51 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Need that TvP Battle Report... would answer some of the questions that are bouncing around in my head. Hopefully they do mirror Battle Reports too, that Blinding Cloud must make ZvZ interesting to say the least. ZvZ: An endless war of lings and banes throughout the midgame, with a furious battle for air superiority going on at the same time? Actually, that would be quite Brood War esque wouldn't it? Not sure if that's a good thing for ZvZ though haha.
I can see Swarm Hosts in the midgame too since they Locusts only lose the little range they have under Cloud. They 2-shot banelings so maybe that'll stabilize the ling-bling wars? They aren't exactly easy to get in ZvZ since they require infestation pit.
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I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals while using the vikings to target vipers or BLs. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. I think terrans will already have vikings ready because they will be necessary to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion.
oh and if zerg goes 2 base viper/infestor there is no way they will have enough gas to make sure both infestors and vipers are doing their job and they won't afford upgrades for zerglings either which is the most important aspect to the build.
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On June 10 2012 02:59 Snoodles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome Oh man, mine drops are going to be the worst thing in the world. You can put 8 of those things in a single medivac...4 in the main, 4 in the natural. 1-1-1 early game medivac-mine drop? One can only hope.
I am really looking forward to trying to pick out 4 probes from the mineral line while they all pass through each other and mine gas....O_o And it only takes one of them going off to ruin your whole day.
Well, terrans wanted protoss and zerg to micro...
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On June 10 2012 02:04 s3rp wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:03 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:01 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 01:53 mastergriggy wrote:On June 10 2012 01:45 zmansman17 wrote:On June 09 2012 23:55 SarcasmMonster wrote:A bit sad they didn't take the opportunity to redesign some of the annoying aspects of WOL like Force Fields, Fungals, Concussive Shell, etc. Now would be the time  Agreed. I only can hope that someday fungal will not inhibit movement completely, so that we could get passed chain fungal with impunity. Fungal plus the Viper's other ability are going to be very devastating to terran (more so than protoss I'd imagine). It seems like the zerg has a lot more options late game, but I guess terran has to take advantage of heavy early game pressure to get things done. Yeah I think their goal was to make Terran the early game race. However, even with WoL, that would appear to be their goal that Terran has to win in the early game. I wanted there to be late game options. well BCs will have a speed boost, that will greatly increase it's durability. I hope in a future build they address the raven, give it some kind of lock down ability or possibly irradiate from BW instead of hunter seeker. With 100 Energy cost and lasting only 6 second it will change very little if anything about BC's
"Double speed and increases acceleration of the Battlecruiser for 6 seconds at a cost of 100 energy."
pretty crazy, even if it is for only 6 second
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This is just gonna make the terran start making ghost again in TvZ since the viper will most likely be psionic type which will take extra dmg, or you could just emp them which would force the zerg to back away and use consume but at least you can get better position.
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On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. You also have vikings in the mix, you will probably end up targetting vipers first because they need to be closer than BL's to cast their spells, and I think terrans will already prematurely have made Vikings to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion.
I don't know what game you play atm, but in sc2 terrans are STILL (after months) looking for a sollution against broodlord infestor. It's not beatable with even economy. In HOTS the zerg gets 1) dark swarm 2) vipers, and you are telling how possible it will be to beat broodlord + infestor in HOTS, after zerg received MORE options???
Lategame TvZ is a complete joke in WOL, and with the burrowed ultra, the dark swarm and the viper pull, it will be an even bigger joke. But I have faith in blizzard, they will provide sollutions (and perhaps a new unit / spell).
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On June 10 2012 02:56 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:42 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Zerg will have no trouble dealing with these mines. I can't imagine with a 10 second timer to micro the unit into isolation or the ability to kill the unit to prevent the mine from exploding makes a very effective unit (and I say unit, because it costs supply), especially against Zerg. But the big thing is that the mines cost 75/25 and only take up one supply. They do 200 damage, so there are very few units in the game they cannot trade efficiently with. There is no air unit in the game they do not trade with efficiently. The AOE damage is a bonus. You're forgetting a few important points though. The opportunity cost of making that mine, the time spent in placing that mine and the technology created to build that mine instead of other tech routes. And if a zergling hits the mine, It's a 25 mineral for 75/25 trade, if the unit is just run into the army (killed before detonation), or easily microed. Doesn't sound like a problem to me. It is a unit that forces your opponent to micro, trades efficiently with all but a hand full of units, can be built with a reactor and requires detection to remove.
That's actually poorly stated. A good player would never willingly trade a unit of higher value for a 75/25 mine. Instead that player will throw away 25 mineral zerglings or other units if no detection is available. However, if detection is available (another point you did not consider), then the mines cost 75/25 and 1 supply and are traded for nothing.
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On June 10 2012 03:04 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. You also have vikings in the mix, you will probably end up targetting vipers first because they need to be closer than BL's to cast their spells, and I think terrans will already prematurely have made Vikings to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion. I don't know what game you play atm, but in sc2 terrans are STILL (after months) looking for a sollution against broodlord infestor. It's not beatable with even economy. In HOTS the zerg gets 1) dark swarm 2) vipers, and you are telling how possible it will be to beat broodlord + infestor in HOTS, after zerg received MORE options???
if it's so unbeatable, why are terrans still winning tournaments? will they resort to more all-ins? quite possibly, all-ins are a part of this game. But HotS is looking more and more like BW, and terran still dealt with zerg just fine in BW with timing attacks designed to punish greedy zergs.
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On June 10 2012 03:04 zeratul_jf wrote:
This is just gonna make the terran start making ghost again in TvZ since the viper will most likely be psionic type which will take extra dmg, or you could just emp them which would force the zerg to back away and use consume but at least you can get better position.
Oh, I forgot about that. It would only take 3 snipes to kill it and both spells out range the "get over here" power.
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On June 10 2012 03:04 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. You also have vikings in the mix, you will probably end up targetting vipers first because they need to be closer than BL's to cast their spells, and I think terrans will already prematurely have made Vikings to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion. I don't know what game you play atm, but in sc2 terrans are STILL (after months) looking for a sollution against broodlord infestor. It's not beatable with even economy. In HOTS the zerg gets 1) dark swarm 2) vipers, and you are telling how possible it will be to beat broodlord + infestor in HOTS, after zerg received MORE options??? Lategame TvZ is a complete joke in WOL, and with the burrowed ultra, the dark swarm and the viper pull, it will be an even bigger joke.
You can beat Infestors Broodlords. Don't act like it has never be done.
You need to be on even footing when he start to have a good mixture of the composition, but marines tanks viking deal with it fine with good positioning, good upgrades, and not sieging your tanks;
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On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals while using the vikings to target vipers or BLs. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. I think terrans will already have vikings ready because they will be necessary to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion.
oh and if zerg goes 2 base viper/infestor there is no way they will have enough gas to make sure both infestors and vipers are doing their job and they won't afford upgrades for zerglings either which is the most important aspect to the build.
I'm not sure what level you play at, but players do not go Bio versus ling infestor (ran k1 master here). You seem to just be making a justification to the claim you make in your post, even if that justification is poorly supported.
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On June 10 2012 03:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:59 Snoodles wrote:On June 10 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome Oh man, mine drops are going to be the worst thing in the world. You can put 8 of those things in a single medivac...4 in the main, 4 in the natural. 1-1-1 early game medivac-mine drop? One can only hope. I am really looking forward to trying to pick out 4 probes from the mineral line while they all pass through each other and mine gas....O_o And it only takes one of them going off to ruin your whole day. Well, terrans wanted protoss and zerg to micro...
Just select all the nearby workers and push stop. Then it should be easy to pick the right one. The real question is whether or not the player will receive a combat alert when a widow mine attaches to a unit.
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On June 10 2012 03:07 emc wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:04 Snowbear wrote:On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. You also have vikings in the mix, you will probably end up targetting vipers first because they need to be closer than BL's to cast their spells, and I think terrans will already prematurely have made Vikings to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion. I don't know what game you play atm, but in sc2 terrans are STILL (after months) looking for a sollution against broodlord infestor. It's not beatable with even economy. In HOTS the zerg gets 1) dark swarm 2) vipers, and you are telling how possible it will be to beat broodlord + infestor in HOTS, after zerg received MORE options??? if it's so unbeatable, why are terrans still winning tournaments? will they resort to more all-ins? quite possibly, all-ins are a part of this game. But HotS is looking more and more like BW, and terran still dealt with zerg just fine in BW with timing attacks designed to punish greedy zergs.
Terrans are not winning mate, they are all suffering hard. When MMA and MKP beg for no TvZ, you know something is wrong. Terrans win vs zerg if
1) they kill them before broodlords come out
2) they are AHEAD and kill them when broodlords are out
Terrans don't win when:
- they got an even economy as zerg.
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On June 10 2012 03:03 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:59 Snoodles wrote:On June 10 2012 02:58 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:50 LuckoftheIrish wrote:Benjamin Baker @DeMusliM Flash just came down and sat next to me and started playing hots!! He's also with stork, bisu and jaedong. No biggy! http://pic.twitter.com/uZUPOgRgBenjamin Baker @DeMusliM Stork floats a factory in flash's main and blow up 20 probes with the mines, flash laughed/freaked out. Was awesome Oh man, mine drops are going to be the worst thing in the world. You can put 8 of those things in a single medivac...4 in the main, 4 in the natural. 1-1-1 early game medivac-mine drop? One can only hope. I am really looking forward to trying to pick out 4 probes from the mineral line while they all pass through each other and mine gas....O_o And it only takes one of them going off to ruin your whole day. Well, terrans wanted protoss and zerg to micro...
Are you really going to have a hard time in 10 seconds? That's like an eternity in an RTS and even a very low level player should have no problem.
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On June 10 2012 03:07 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:04 Snowbear wrote:On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. You also have vikings in the mix, you will probably end up targetting vipers first because they need to be closer than BL's to cast their spells, and I think terrans will already prematurely have made Vikings to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion. I don't know what game you play atm, but in sc2 terrans are STILL (after months) looking for a sollution against broodlord infestor. It's not beatable with even economy. In HOTS the zerg gets 1) dark swarm 2) vipers, and you are telling how possible it will be to beat broodlord + infestor in HOTS, after zerg received MORE options??? Lategame TvZ is a complete joke in WOL, and with the burrowed ultra, the dark swarm and the viper pull, it will be an even bigger joke. You can beat Infestors Broodlords. Don't act like it has never be done. You need to be on even footing when he start to have a good mixture of the composition, but marines tanks viking deal with it fine with good positioning, good upgrades, and not sieging your tanks;
Provide 1 game where the terran beated a broodlord infestor composition, without being ahead. You will find 0 games.
Yes, with 3-3 thors and ravens and the zerg clumping up is broodlords, it's doable. But it's not when you don't go mech.
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On June 10 2012 03:07 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 03:01 emc wrote:
I don't think bio is as dead in TvZ as people may think. Look at a current TvZ and tell me why terrans still go 3/3 bio when they see mass ling/infestor? Can you tell me? It's because bio is cost effective as hell, and with medivacs can harass for a ton of damage. In a late game TvZ in WoL we might see bio+medivac+tank+viking+thor right? And zerg would have infestor+BL+ling+corrupter. Now lets just imagine a lategame TvZ in HotS. Terran can still run his marines away from blinding cloud, a zerg has to cast 2 spells from 2 different units, believe me it's not easy to accomplish when you want to blinding cloud an entire army + fungal an entire army all the while making sure your lings get in perfectly, all terran has to do is make sure their tanks are sieged, then they just need to make sure their bio army is split enough to mitigate the fungals while using the vikings to target vipers or BLs. Once you have a split bio army, any blinding cloud that gets laid down you micro back, you will probably lose your tanks but BL's would have cleaned them up anyways. I think terrans will already have vikings ready because they will be necessary to mitigate the strength of vipers in the mid game.
But lets think about the early to mid game for a second. If zerg goes fast 3 base, he also can't very well fast tech to infestor AND drone AND have an army AND have vipers. Terran can prepare a 2 base timing to decimate any zerg who tries to play greedy and go infestor/viper, zerg has to make a choice! And if zerg manages to get to late game with an infestor/viper/ling army, you can STILL use medivac drops, because what anti-air does zerg really have besides queens who get owned by 8 marines with 3/3, stim and combat shields? As I already said, look at a current TvZ, the zerg who spends his money on getting spores/spines still manages to get harassed because they can't cover every single drop zone in every single one of their bases. This is why I don't think bio is all that dead in this match up, but of course it's impossible to speculate without real data. Yes late game TvZ will be scary for Terrans, but there is still a lot of things to explore in this expansion.
oh and if zerg goes 2 base viper/infestor there is no way they will have enough gas to make sure both infestors and vipers are doing their job and they won't afford upgrades for zerglings either which is the most important aspect to the build. I'm not sure what level you play at, but players do not go Bio versus ling infestor (ran k1 master here). You seem to just be making a justification to the claim you make in your post, even if that justification is poorly supported.
so terrans resort to mech in WoL then after seeing infestor? what terran deviates from bio once they've already committed to it? Thats the question I'm asking here. If I see terrans STILL pull off wins despite knowing zerg has them countered, then I think terran will be just fine in HotS if they use all the tools properly. What about ghosts? ravens? Surely ravens aren't the best unit but their PDD could buy you time necessary to deal with the units needed to win. I'm not a pro, and I know I'm just speculating and theorycrafting but that's the difference, is that I know I'm speculating. I'm throwing out ideas so that other terrans can maybe start the a process in their head to how they could defeat a zerg HotS army in the same way they defeat a WoL army instead of just being a defeatist and giving up.
As I mentioned before, terrans in BW learned to do bio timing attacks despite knowing there was this awesome dark swarm ability that negated their bio. So terrans will just have to resort to attacking earlier and doing necessary damage, as it was in BW.
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On June 10 2012 03:06 zmansman17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 10 2012 02:56 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:53 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:48 Plansix wrote:On June 10 2012 02:42 zmansman17 wrote:On June 10 2012 02:40 emc wrote:On June 10 2012 02:36 Solo Terran wrote:On June 10 2012 02:32 ZAiNs wrote:On June 10 2012 02:31 Solo Terran wrote:
If mines don't deal friendly damage then that is clearly retarded. They have 6 range. I'll put those things literally everywhere and laugh as everything blows up.
You guys can't be serious with mines and Thors being good enough mobile anti air. Thors are fucking HUGE and vipers will abduct them even if you have vikings or not. Putting them literally everywhere is impossible as they cost supply. Even if they didn't I'm not sure all the money on the map would be enough to put them literally everywhere. Am I crazy? Or are fast moving moveable mines with 6 range that deal 200 splash damage and do 0 damage to your own army absolutely ridiculous? The only unit zerg can use to deal with them are Brood Lords no? We saw how they can work against swarm hosts. we also saw that zerg with zero overseers the entire game. Overseers, just out of range of the mine, can detect the mine then the swarm hosts minions can go and kill the mines because the mines don't attach to units with timers like changelings. It's fair to me man, you can always send in an overlord or zergling to bait the mine. When I get the beta I'm going to be sending speed overlords before my army to bait mines. Zerg will have no trouble dealing with these mines. I can't imagine with a 10 second timer to micro the unit into isolation or the ability to kill the unit to prevent the mine from exploding makes a very effective unit (and I say unit, because it costs supply), especially against Zerg. But the big thing is that the mines cost 75/25 and only take up one supply. They do 200 damage, so there are very few units in the game they cannot trade efficiently with. There is no air unit in the game they do not trade with efficiently. The AOE damage is a bonus. You're forgetting a few important points though. The opportunity cost of making that mine, the time spent in placing that mine and the technology created to build that mine instead of other tech routes. And if a zergling hits the mine, It's a 25 mineral for 75/25 trade, if the unit is just run into the army (killed before detonation), or easily microed. Doesn't sound like a problem to me. It is a unit that forces your opponent to micro, trades efficiently with all but a hand full of units, can be built with a reactor and requires detection to remove. That's actually poorly stated. A good player would never willingly trade a unit of higher value for a 75/25 mine. Instead that player will throw away 25 mineral zerglings or other units if no detection is available. However, if detection is available (another point you did not consider), then the mines cost 75/25 and 1 supply and are traded for nothing.
Once again, doesn't sound like a problem. You force the other race to have detection to move out on the map, for them to move slowly and pay close attention to their army and get scouting information from the mine while it it out there. I don't know about you, but currently I don't hover over my army every time I move it.
The unit is about as useless as a burrowed baneling. The last time I checked, those where pretty OK.
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EPT
