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On June 09 2012 16:26 Wildmoon wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 16:22 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 16:11 Wildmoon wrote:On June 09 2012 16:03 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:
With the viper pull (doesn't seem to cost much mana... seems to be like 75? i think it may need to be higher like NP, maybe viper cost adjusted, idk it seems like they're pulling way too often tho, but maybe i'm wrong).
Are vipers armored and/or psyonic? i wonder if vikings/ghosts work against those.
With tanks being easier to target out, i wonder if they may buff tank dps (if they already haven't). That would help mech in TvP as well. Warhounds and battle hellions are cool but they're not BW-mech style. They're a bit more immobile than bio but it looks midway between mech and bio, since they're not sieging and unsieging like in BW (or like in TvT or TvZ in sc2 lol).
Or maybe they intend the widow mines to help a lot with that positional/defense mech style, instead of relying on the tank so much? Also interesting is that they are like seeker missile, especially in that they are designed to do heavy damage but not in a huge splash radius. That's good for protoss units I guess, and units like roach/hydra (hellions already deal well enough with lings).
I wonder if people can gather more data about hots though. Isn't there a compilation thread somewhere about costs and etc.? You can't really play mech without tank. Battle Hellion and Warhound will not be viable if they are not supported by tank imo. Only way to play mech without tank is to go mass Thors. Other than that it's still the same old mech with different unit but the standard unit will still be tank. Why do you think that? Hellion warhound owned that protoss army in the trailer. Warhounds are probably more effective than thors now, and battle hellions deal with zealots. HTs can storm battle hellions but they can't feedback warhounds. Archons wouldn't do much damage. I get a feeling that that video is not really accurate way judge the game. It just makes more sense to mix in tanks. Tanks may not be so good vs Zealot and Archon but in large number and having other units to protect it then it's decent. Unlike Thor, Warhound is not good vs everthing. It's bad vs Archon and Zealot.
Well it's showing a pretty equal cost battle, and showing the terran winning by a lot. Zealot Archon shouldn't be a problem to warhound/hellion just as it isn't a problem vs any mech composition with enough hellions. You run in, kite all the zealots, then suddenly all that's left is archons, which you could actually kite too. Neither archon nor warhound may kill each other very fast, but archons are much more expensive since they're so gas heavy.
Anyways point isn't if tanks will help or not, it's your original post where you said you don't think hellion/warhound will be viable without tanks. If they add more colossi or tempest or carrier or void, you just get vikings as usual. Otherwise, warhound hellion seems pretty good against gateway units. Warhound's missiles seems to be able to take down immortal shields decently fast due to multiple shots, and seem to have more range than immortals (the normal attack too) so they can let the hellions tank.
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On June 09 2012 17:41 Garmer wrote:units stats: + Show Spoiler +
Zerg
Swarm Host
Costs:
Minerals: 200
Vespene: 100
Supply: 3
Time: 40
Stats:
Health: 120
Abilities:
Spawn Locust
Cooldown: 25
Spawns 2 Locusts. Locusts can attack ground and air with a short range, and have a 15-second timed life.
Relevant Upgrades:
Evolve Increased Locust Lifetime (Infestation Pit)
Minerals: 200
Vespene: 200
Time: 120
Increases the lifetime of Locusts by 10 seconds.
Viper
Costs:
Minerals: 100
Vespene: 200
Supply: 3
Time: 40
Stats:
Health: ?
Energy: ?
Abilities:
Consume
Eat 200 health off an allied unit or building over ten seconds, turning it into 50 energy for the Viper.
Abduct
Energy: 75
Pulls in an enemy unit towards the Viper
Blinding Cloud
Energy: 75
A cloud that lasts for 10 seconds, it reduces the range of bio units in the cloud down to 1.
Hydralisk
Relevant Upgrades:
Evolve Muscular Augments (Hydralisk Den)
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 150
Time: 100
Hydralisks move 50% faster off creep
Terran
Reaper
Relevant Upgrades:
Research Combat Drugs (Barracks Tech Lab)
Minerals: 50
Vespene: 50
Time: 80
Increases Reaper health regeneration out of battle.
Changes:
Lost D8 Charges
Lost Nitro Pack upgrade
Widow Mine
Costs:
Minerals: 75
Vespene: 25
Supply: 1
Time: 20
Stats:
Health: 55
Damage: 200
Range: 5
Movement Speed: 2.81
Hellion
Stats (Mech Form):
Health: 135
Damage: 10, 14 vs. light
Range: 2
Weapon Speed: 1.9
Movement Speed: 2.25
Warhound
Costs:
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 75
Supply: 2
Time: 45
Stats:
Health: 220
Armor: 1
Damage: 23
Range: 7
Weapon Speed: 1.3
Movement Speed: 2.81
Abilities:
Haywire Missile
Cooldown: 6, autocast
Blasts target ground mechanical unit, dealing 30 damage
Battlecruiser
Changes:
New ability: Redline Reactor
Energy: 100
Doubles movement speed and increases acceleration of the Battlecruiser for 6 seconds
Protoss
Mothership Core
Costs:
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 50
Time: 30
Stats:
Health: 350
Shield: 350
Energy: 200
Abilities:
Teleport
Energy: 25
Teleports the Mothership Core to another Nexus (Mothership Cores cannot move off of a Nexus)
Energize
Energy: 25
Recharges target’s energy to maximum
Purify
Energy: 75
Cooldown: 20
The Mothership Core gains a powerful attack for 20 seconds
Mass Recall
Energy: 150
Recalls all units in target area back to the Mothership Core
Relevant Upgrades:
Upgrade to Mothership (Mothership Core)
Minerals: 300
Vespene: 350
Supply: 8
Time: 100
Requires Fleet Beacon
Upgrades Mothership Core to a Mothership
Oracle
Costs:
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 200
Supply: 3
Time: 60
Stats:
Health: 20
Shield: 80
Energy: ?
Movement Speed: 3.75
Abilities:
Preordain
Energy: 75
Reveals the area around a target structure for 2 minutes
Entomb
Energy: 75
Raises forcefields on all minerals in a target area, rendering them ungatherable for 45 seconds (unless the forcefields are destroyed)
Cloak Field
Energy: 100
Cloaks all nearby units, excluding Oracles, for 60 seconds
Relevant Upgrades:
Research Bosonic Core (Cybernetics Core)
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 150
Time: 90
The Oracle starts with 25 more energy
Tempest
Costs:
Minerals: 300
Vespene: 300
Suppply: 6
Time: 75
Stats:
Health: 300
Shield: 150
Armor: 2
Damage: 45, 60 vs. Massive
Range: 10
Weapon Speed: 6
Movement Speed: 2.25
Relevant Upgrades:
Gravity Sling (Fleet Beacon)
Minerals: 150
Vespene: 150
Time: 100
Increases Tempests’ range by 12, to a total of 22 range
2 minutes on preordain sounds like a really freaking long time.
Also I'm surprised no ones mentioned the fact that the energy recharge makes templar broken. 8 templar can throw down initial storms, and then have up to another SIXTEEN. And if they get emp'd before an engagement, they can recharge after the EMPs are wasted.
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On June 09 2012 18:10 Decendos wrote:
do you need one spidermine to kill one unit or is it able to kill infinite units that walk/fly over it? e.g. one spidermine in T main: Z flys mutas over it. all mutas die? if so mutas are even more out of the game as they are right now.
1 mine jumps on the unit that runs close to it, then it takes some seconds to explode, and when it explodes it does splash. So you basicly need to zone the unit with the mine out of your army, and you lose 1 unit.
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On June 09 2012 18:07 AxionSteel wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:03 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2012 18:01 Evangelist wrote:On June 09 2012 17:58 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2012 17:55 TheBrow wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! I heared Marines are pretty good -_- Marines in a mech composition? You know that you would need: - stim - combat shield - upgrades for bio Vikings obviously do not counter mutalisks. Atm magic boxed mutalisks do pretty well vs thors. ... If you're sitting around with a bunch of tanks in a static position then mutas aren't going to be a problem if you sprinkle a few widow mines around. a few widow mines do not kill 30 mutas, when the mutas are well microed  I don't know why a Terran player would be worried about mutas. Mutas are not good whatsoever against Mech anyway.
Eh, it kinda depends. A large critical mass of Thors can kill like infinity Mutas. However, if a Terran overbuilds everything else and underbuilds Thors, then a lot of Mutas can magic box and kill those few Thors relatively cost-efficiently, then kill the rest of the mech army unopposed once the anti-air is gone. But usually a good Terran won't let that happen.
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On June 09 2012 18:03 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:01 Evangelist wrote:On June 09 2012 17:58 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2012 17:55 TheBrow wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! I heared Marines are pretty good -_- Marines in a mech composition? You know that you would need: - stim - combat shield - upgrades for bio Vikings obviously do not counter mutalisks. Atm magic boxed mutalisks do pretty well vs thors. ... If you're sitting around with a bunch of tanks in a static position then mutas aren't going to be a problem if you sprinkle a few widow mines around. a few widow mines do not kill 30 mutas, when the mutas are well microed
In order to keep them alive, you're going to need to spend time getting the mines out of said muta flock either by target firing the muta or by moving it. One way or the other you're changing how the flock works. If suddenly 4 widow mines appear in your muta flock then that's a hell of a lot of micro you've suddenly got to do.
While the zerg is dealing with that, I've got thors and marines moving in. Best case scenario for the zerg, I take 3-4 mutas out cost effectively and actually make up for any losses that the mutas caused. For example, killing 4 mutas costs the zerg 400/400, 4 widow mines cost me 300/100, a thor costs me 300/200 so I'm basically trading 200 minerals for 100 gas which is a trade most people will take. Worst case scenario for the zerg is that they can't actually get the mines out in time and they lose more than the 4 mutas. The absolute worst case scenario is that all 4 widow mines go off, killing the entire flock.
Properly microed or not really doesn't matter too much, to be honest. Widow mines are actually insanely cost effective.
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On June 09 2012 17:55 Fragile51 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! Or you can just build vikings, you know..like mech terrans who need anti air should :p
@Fragile
What do you mean again? Thors are fine in TvZ. And why would you want to get warhounds in TvZ? They're supposed to be anti-mechanical units.
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On June 09 2012 18:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:55 Fragile51 wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! Or you can just build vikings, you know..like mech terrans who need anti air should :p @Fragile What do you mean again? Thors are fine in TvZ. And why would you want to get warhounds in TvZ? They're supposed to be anti-mechanical units.
30 magic boxed mutas kill thors pretty fast, unless the terran made a lot of thors. A lot of thors = less tanks, less mines.
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I don't like how the worker count shows on the bases... it was just fine rewarding better players to balance out their workers between bases, now it feels too easy. edit: apparently its only in spectator mode
Creep also looks a bit strange now... other than that it seem like a step forward, I'm curious as to how it will play out in a year or two
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On June 09 2012 17:40 sleepingdog wrote:
My biggest question after seeing the PvZ game right now would be: what of the new protoss-units is supposed to prevent endless swarms of roaches?
Or to put it another way: what's stopping zerg in HotS ZvPs to mass-roach all over again? It seems like most of the demonstrated zerg-units are funky but given that protoss doesn't really get a unit-combination that is supposed to counter this already prevalent style of hard macro and mass-roach: why should zerg care? Fast hydras look cool, but I can't think of why zerg should prefer them over the already fast roaches? And mass-tempest vs mass-roach is probably as useful as mass-carriers right now.
In the current build, it costs 25 energy from the mothership core to max out the energy of any other unit. There's potential for holding any ramp, even wide ones, indefinitely with a single sentry. The mothership core cannon is also really strong. Like stronger than a Planetary Fortress. And it can teleport to any Nexus meaning you can build it at your main and have full energy by the time your third is up then transfer the core. There are also potential Recall timing attacks where you send an attack that has strong potential to deal damage, but would be suicidal in WoL. Recall the army back once the damage is done. That might be enough to disrupt any mass roach timing from being effective.
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I feel like Widow Mines have a little bit too many HP. They seem overpowered right now, you just walk in and everything detonates and they deal a shitload of damage.
The Warhound is really boring from a design perspective. It also has misplaced visuals and looks more like something from a japanese cartoon and less like something what would be part of the Starcraft universe. Please replace it. I know you have worked a lot on this, but I think very few people like it.
Everything else looks awesome, I like the Protoss changes. Can't really discuss about Zerg, but add Infestors to all the things you have seen in the Battle Report and you see massive whining in the near future.
Can't wait for the Beta!
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On June 09 2012 17:22 ZenithM wrote:
Does anyone know how much those "widow mines" things cost and how fast they build? Was is worth it to kill 2 queens with 2 mines?
75/25; so basically the same as a roach.
I would trade one roach for one queen any day of the week.
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On June 09 2012 18:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 17:55 Fragile51 wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! Or you can just build vikings, you know..like mech terrans who need anti air should :p @Fragile What do you mean again? Thors are fine in TvZ. And why would you want to get warhounds in TvZ? They're supposed to be anti-mechanical units.
Because there is no mech unit that can go toe-to-toe with the Ultralisk.
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On June 09 2012 18:10 Scorch wrote:
With its slow spawning rate, it looks like the Swarm Host is about the lowest dps unit in the game. Even then, it's not damage but units that can be destroyed. Like an infestor with only infested terrans, but not as bursty. Not very useful for cracking fortified positions, and even worse for holding a position. I think a straight-up damage unit like a long-range Lurker would make more sense. I love the Viper though, both abduct and the blinding cloud are very useful.
The terran units are just lame. Battle Hellion makes sense for making mech more viable I guess, but there's just nothing that makes you go "wow, that's an interesting idea, I wonder how that'll play out".
I don't quite see the point of the mothership core. It doesn't fix any glaring weaknesses protoss had, does it? I'm undecided on whether or not I like the Oracle. Entomb will certainly be hard to balance. A 22 range air unit is just plain silly.
Strangely enough, the Lurker that was cut right before the WoL beta was basically a Hive-tech, long-range, anti-armor siege unit with an upgrade to range 9, matching Colossus with Thermal Lance range.
And I think the Mothership Core was designed partially with PvP in mind, as it now allows for a defender's advantage in the matchup, even when fast-expanding. The defending Protoss player now has more tools to defend his base against an offensive Protoss player who is rushing with Warp Gate.
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On June 09 2012 18:18 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 17:55 Fragile51 wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! Or you can just build vikings, you know..like mech terrans who need anti air should :p @Fragile What do you mean again? Thors are fine in TvZ. And why would you want to get warhounds in TvZ? They're supposed to be anti-mechanical units. Because there is no mech unit that can go toe-to-toe with the Ultralisk.
Thors? but with charge I don't think Thors will still be good against Ultralisks.
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On June 09 2012 18:12 Evangelist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:03 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2012 18:01 Evangelist wrote:On June 09 2012 17:58 Snowbear wrote:On June 09 2012 17:55 TheBrow wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! I heared Marines are pretty good -_- Marines in a mech composition? You know that you would need: - stim - combat shield - upgrades for bio Vikings obviously do not counter mutalisks. Atm magic boxed mutalisks do pretty well vs thors. ... If you're sitting around with a bunch of tanks in a static position then mutas aren't going to be a problem if you sprinkle a few widow mines around. a few widow mines do not kill 30 mutas, when the mutas are well microed In order to keep them alive, you're going to need to spend time getting the mines out of said muta flock either by target firing the muta or by moving it. One way or the other you're changing how the flock works. If suddenly 4 widow mines appear in your muta flock then that's a hell of a lot of micro you've suddenly got to do. While the zerg is dealing with that, I've got thors and marines moving in. Best case scenario for the zerg, I take 3-4 mutas out cost effectively and actually make up for any losses that the mutas caused. For example, killing 4 mutas costs the zerg 400/400, 4 widow mines cost me 300/100, a thor costs me 300/200 so I'm basically trading 200 minerals for 100 gas which is a trade most people will take. Worst case scenario for the zerg is that they can't actually get the mines out in time and they lose more than the 4 mutas. The absolute worst case scenario is that all 4 widow mines go off, killing the entire flock. Properly microed or not really doesn't matter too much, to be honest. Widow mines are actually insanely cost effective.
One mine is always cost efficient against one muta. A mine costs 75/25, a muta is 100/100. With the potential to kill a whole flock if the other person isn't maying attention, that's pretty good.
(I know you know, just making it very clear.)
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Put some mines infront of your natural...
See one zergling picking it up and running it to your mineral line...
gg wp.
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On June 09 2012 18:11 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:10 Decendos wrote:
do you need one spidermine to kill one unit or is it able to kill infinite units that walk/fly over it? e.g. one spidermine in T main: Z flys mutas over it. all mutas die? if so mutas are even more out of the game as they are right now. 1 mine jumps on the unit that runs close to it, then it takes some seconds to explode, and when it explodes it does splash. So you basicly need to zone the unit with the mine out of your army, and you lose 1 unit.
thx. thats the way it should be. like it.
btw, with the abduct ability being in they could remove NP from infestor and give it a new ability.
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They are still not sure wether or not it does friendly damage, if I read it correctly.
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Wow, the warhound is such a good tank for 2 supply o.o Not really liking the 3 food units for Zerg. I wonder if they tried to make swarm host a 2 or even 1 food unit, to make zerg more swarmy? Warhounds take pretty long to build though. Warhound's attack vs normal isn't so bad actually! 2 warhounds is slightly cheaper than a thor and you do 46 damage instead of 60. Food wise, warhounds are AMAZING. Like holy shit, way better than marauders. Warhounds are so food efficient! Of course they're a bit big for 2 supply, so that'll help keep their dps "densitiy" from getting too high. Range 7 is amazing too. They are pretty fucking fast as well. So warhound has energy bar or no? And the haywire missile is 1 attack of 30 damage? Seems like it was multiple hits by its effect. I'm guessing Immortal's hardened shields will reduce it to 10. I wonder if it can be blocked by PDD. I did some math and 1 immortal vs 2 warhounds is close -- not sure which wins. But even if the 2 warhounds lose, it's not by much and they are only 50 min 50 gas more expensive. Not like you wouldn't have support anyways. With ultralisks having burrow charge now, i wonder if frenzy is still necessary to stop them from getting strike canon'd?
On June 09 2012 18:18 Lukeeze[zR] wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 18:12 Yoshi Kirishima wrote:On June 09 2012 17:55 Fragile51 wrote:On June 09 2012 17:29 Snowbear wrote:
What worries me about TvZ mech is anti-air. You will have to go thor heavy again...
The warhound really needs an air attack imo! Or you can just build vikings, you know..like mech terrans who need anti air should :p @Fragile What do you mean again? Thors are fine in TvZ. And why would you want to get warhounds in TvZ? They're supposed to be anti-mechanical units. Because there is no mech unit that can go toe-to-toe with the Ultralisk.
What? He was talking about TvZ anti-air. He says he will have to be thor heavy. Yes ultralisks can do well vs thor heavy armies in WoL. But you don't need to be thor heavy.
On June 09 2012 17:36 AalkomH2O wrote:
LOL zerg still doesn't have anti- air rofl
Hydralisks.
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EPT
