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On June 09 2012 08:57 Batch wrote:
I think they should have kept the Carriers and increased their range to 22 instead of adding the Tempest.
22 range carriers? lol what are you smoking
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On June 09 2012 08:46 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:38 Dingobloo wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 Falling wrote:On June 09 2012 07:48 Splynn wrote:
I think I'm in the vast minority on this... but with the new queen look (I didn't like the way the old queen look), I'm really hoping they tweak the roach a little bit, too. To me it just looks too round and with no real features, I really don't like the way roaches look in general. The new queen is awesome, though. Just wish that the roach could look less like a beachball with spikes.
New queen looks pretty good I think. And I definitely think roach design could use an overhaul. I was just enjoying the unit mix in that battle report and thinking how much better hydra look aesthetically as the core unit rather than the roach. Beachball with spikes it is. But hydra, swarmlord, defiler thingy looked pretty cool. Yeah, staying active with that unit is just can be so valuable. I mean, every time you are able to land the shields onto those minerals- that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction. It’s still a small amount of mining time they won’t be able to access. Rob Simpson from the battle report. Although an interesting idea, this is precisely why I think the oracle harass is not very good similar to FF's. I'm sure it will get balanced. But it will never be the unit interaction like BW storms, reaver shots that were big hits or misses depending on who was faster. Or good map awareness with DTs that didn't trigger an alarm when atttacking workers. But this will always be did I get close enough with out being sniped? If yes, then freeze minerals for x amount of time (x amount being tweaked for balance). If no, then no damage. But it requires very little interaction between units/ players reaction time. Sure taking down minerals requires a reaction, but it's not the same as: Did I get close enough without my shuttle getting sniped? If yes, then quickly unload high templar, unleash 1-2 storms before the opposing player races all his workers away for little to no damage. If the opposing player doesn't react, the entire line of workers get's wiped out. But it's all about who is faster, not just on entry, but also on the attack execution. "that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction." I don't particularly like this idea for a harassment unit. I agree, but this also isn't as effective as normal harassment, without killing the workers you're not preventing the snowball nature of economic development, you're merely removing income temporarily, I don't think it will be a replacement for effective late game harassment. Agreed and people will adapt to the harassment quickly. If you watch the report. the bubbles only have 75 HP and can be focused down quickly. Also the Oracle only has 20 shields and 80 HP. It will die if something looks at it sideways.
Why have an oracle when you can shoot workers one at a time with a tempest for as long as you want?
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On June 09 2012 08:56 guruPanda wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:50 Naphal wrote:
i like how they chose to mainly trash terran fortifications with the new protoss and zerg units -.-
terran units underwhelming in comparison... i mean the mine takes how long to explode? even i could micro units away with the time displayed in the video, better yet, i could even micro these units into the enemy... pick up mines with stalkers and blink them into the bio. Very interesting aspect, but we don't know if the mines have friendly splash yet.
We do know that the mines don't go off if the unit dies. If I try to blink a single stalker on top of any mid game terran army it will be dead instantly.
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I'm genuinely excited for HOTS now; the new units and abilities are going to make this game so much more dynamic. The showmatch here made the game look much more dynamic than WOL has been, especially regarding deathball clash and mash play. Vipers and tempests and recalls and oracles and swarm hosts... this game of PvZ was extremely positional, as well as the battles lasting much longer than they ever have in WoL.
As a Terran player, I'm a bit dissapointed, I feel like not as many "cool" options were given as with the other two, which is likely why they chose a PvZ to show off the new stuff. However, the reason I picked Terran in the first place was because they really were the "cool" race in WoL (more diverse units/possible builds/etc.), and so it makes sense (and is really really good for the game) that the other two races be given more of these options, as well.
Heck, I might even enjoy playing with Protoss and Zerg now. I've often joked about changing races before, but it just never seemed as fun once I spent a few days with Toss or Zerg. But now... it looks like it might actually be a fun option for me 
All in all, these vids gave me some serious nerd chills. And sure, while the balance won't have been perfected yet, time will fix that. Can't wait for this game!!!
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late-game tvz just got 100 times harder with these free swarm host units. I can envision it now. broodlord infestor swarmhost transforms a 200/200 zerg army into a 300/300 army with all the free unlimited units they can spawn and terran units can never get close to. especially now that swarm hosts locusts can target air too. vikings even more usless late game against broodlords now.
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On June 09 2012 08:56 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:46 guruPanda wrote:On June 09 2012 08:40 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 NDDseer wrote:
Best update of the whole lot to me is the mothership core, rewards players who manage use of their energy well and beefs up the defenders bonus in PvP.
Also, are we now going to see sudden requirements to micro around your units when a couple of them pick up widow mines, so that only the ones actually attached to the thing take any damage? If so, that's a really cool change too. The recall ability is retarded and will be taken out since it cannot be balanced. Wait until 150 energy-> warp in proxy units-> do damage and then when the enemy comes to defend you just recall out. Blink into main-> do damage -> recall back into base. Blizzard wtf are you thinking. The most important aspect of the new recall, a lot of people seem to be missing that, is that it recalls ALL of the Protosses units. You cannot select a small amount of harassing units. So using the recall will basically destroy all your positioning and leave you very vulknerable to counter harassment, runby's and so on. The bad thing about that is of yourse that it pushes Toss into a deathball-direction even more, since the recall becomes unusable as soon as you fight at more than one front. If your opponent lets you sit on 2 bases and build up your deathball, yeah. Otherwise the way this recall thing works leads completly to the other direction, making harrass more viable way earlier but still limits it to ne nexus energy and therefore does not make it too powerful. Current state now is protoss going more or less allin on 2 bases and only into macrogame if zerg holds the first attack. Now you might (and have to!) attack with less gateways but probably can rescure your gateway army. On the other hand Zerg can defend your pushes more easily with getting 1-3 fast swarm hosts. This works out so brilliant... don't know why ppl are complaining about that -_- Yes you can clump up and save your deathball but on the other hand zerg has the viper to pull your units out of the ball. And tbh - who as a zerg would not like to trade an infestationpit against 2 or 3 colossus when protoss retreats? damn i really wanted to stay out of here...
your post seems to have nothing to do with his.
He is saying that the nexus recall pulls all attacking units you own back to the core which destroys any positioning you have set up and almost forces a deathball since it auto groups your units together.
You go off about how this lets you harass more and not use a deathball
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On June 09 2012 08:25 dAPhREAk wrote:
is 22 range even on the same screen? lol.
You think?
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The new features are looking great, I think a lot of them are really moving in the right direction.
Protoss' new things help make them less deathball-ish: non-mobile mothership, mass recall, oracle, etc.
What on earth is the tempest though? Just a less-interesting broodlord?
The widow mine looks great, Terran has to figure out the best places to place them, and the opponent has to micro once they're activated, or defuse them with cheap units
Someone pointed out a while ago, that everything in SC2 is basically designed to counter tanks. Immortals, void rays, broodlords (broodlings cause friendly fire), chargelots, blink, marauders... And HotS is only continuing this trend. Practically every single unit was shown destroying tanks, and looks well-suited to do so in real games: Tempest, Abduct, Warhound missiles...
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On June 09 2012 08:57 Batch wrote:
I think they should have kept the Carriers and increased their range to 22 instead of adding the Tempest.
Personally, I would rather a unit that did not require me to buy more units just to do damage. The tempest is far more interesting now that ever before. With such a slow firing speed and low damage(before people freak out, like 11 of them were shooting those tanks, like 66 supply, 3300 minerals and 2200 gas), they cannot be used in the death ball. None of the new protoss options can. People need to wait until the units come out and cut their teeth on them.
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On June 09 2012 08:59 artosismermaid wrote:
late-game tvz just got 100 times harder with these free swarm host units. I can envision it now. broodlord infestor swarmhost transforms a 200/200 zerg army into a 300/300 army with all the free unlimited units they can spawn and terran units can never get close to. especially now that swarm hosts locusts can target air too. vikings even more usless late game against broodlords now.
yeah the zerg strategy will be getting the marines and hellions to run out of ammunition.
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On June 09 2012 08:59 Kaw wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:56 guruPanda wrote:On June 09 2012 08:50 Naphal wrote:
i like how they chose to mainly trash terran fortifications with the new protoss and zerg units -.-
terran units underwhelming in comparison... i mean the mine takes how long to explode? even i could micro units away with the time displayed in the video, better yet, i could even micro these units into the enemy... pick up mines with stalkers and blink them into the bio. Very interesting aspect, but we don't know if the mines have friendly splash yet. We do know that the mines don't go off if the unit dies. If I try to blink a single stalker on top of any mid game terran army it will be dead instantly.
If mines don't go off if the units dies it seems pretty meh especially with 10 second timer...
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On June 09 2012 08:59 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:46 Plansix wrote:On June 09 2012 08:38 Dingobloo wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 Falling wrote:On June 09 2012 07:48 Splynn wrote:
I think I'm in the vast minority on this... but with the new queen look (I didn't like the way the old queen look), I'm really hoping they tweak the roach a little bit, too. To me it just looks too round and with no real features, I really don't like the way roaches look in general. The new queen is awesome, though. Just wish that the roach could look less like a beachball with spikes.
New queen looks pretty good I think. And I definitely think roach design could use an overhaul. I was just enjoying the unit mix in that battle report and thinking how much better hydra look aesthetically as the core unit rather than the roach. Beachball with spikes it is. But hydra, swarmlord, defiler thingy looked pretty cool. Yeah, staying active with that unit is just can be so valuable. I mean, every time you are able to land the shields onto those minerals- that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction. It’s still a small amount of mining time they won’t be able to access. Rob Simpson from the battle report. Although an interesting idea, this is precisely why I think the oracle harass is not very good similar to FF's. I'm sure it will get balanced. But it will never be the unit interaction like BW storms, reaver shots that were big hits or misses depending on who was faster. Or good map awareness with DTs that didn't trigger an alarm when atttacking workers. But this will always be did I get close enough with out being sniped? If yes, then freeze minerals for x amount of time (x amount being tweaked for balance). If no, then no damage. But it requires very little interaction between units/ players reaction time. Sure taking down minerals requires a reaction, but it's not the same as: Did I get close enough without my shuttle getting sniped? If yes, then quickly unload high templar, unleash 1-2 storms before the opposing player races all his workers away for little to no damage. If the opposing player doesn't react, the entire line of workers get's wiped out. But it's all about who is faster, not just on entry, but also on the attack execution. "that’s guaranteed harassment. It doesn’t matter whether or not they’re fast on the reaction." I don't particularly like this idea for a harassment unit. I agree, but this also isn't as effective as normal harassment, without killing the workers you're not preventing the snowball nature of economic development, you're merely removing income temporarily, I don't think it will be a replacement for effective late game harassment. Agreed and people will adapt to the harassment quickly. If you watch the report. the bubbles only have 75 HP and can be focused down quickly. Also the Oracle only has 20 shields and 80 HP. It will die if something looks at it sideways. Why have an oracle when you can shoot workers one at a time with a tempest for as long as you want? The tempest needs to have vision of its target. If I am shooting you from across the map, consider getting detection.
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I just realized, Heart of the Swarm is making Zerg and Protoss much more micro APM intensive races and then giving Terran 1a mech units. I'll a move my Battle Hellions and Warhounds all day that sounds like a lot of fun..............
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On June 09 2012 08:56 o)_Saurus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:46 guruPanda wrote:On June 09 2012 08:40 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 NDDseer wrote:
Best update of the whole lot to me is the mothership core, rewards players who manage use of their energy well and beefs up the defenders bonus in PvP.
Also, are we now going to see sudden requirements to micro around your units when a couple of them pick up widow mines, so that only the ones actually attached to the thing take any damage? If so, that's a really cool change too. The recall ability is retarded and will be taken out since it cannot be balanced. Wait until 150 energy-> warp in proxy units-> do damage and then when the enemy comes to defend you just recall out. Blink into main-> do damage -> recall back into base. Blizzard wtf are you thinking. The most important aspect of the new recall, a lot of people seem to be missing that, is that it recalls ALL of the Protosses units. You cannot select a small amount of harassing units. So using the recall will basically destroy all your positioning and leave you very vulknerable to counter harassment, runby's and so on. The bad thing about that is of yourse that it pushes Toss into a deathball-direction even more, since the recall becomes unusable as soon as you fight at more than one front. If your opponent lets you sit on 2 bases and build up your deathball, yeah. Otherwise the way this recall thing works leads completly to the other direction, making harrass more viable way earlier but still limits it to ne nexus energy and therefore does not make it too powerful. Current state now is protoss going more or less allin on 2 bases and only into macrogame if zerg holds the first attack. Now you might (and have to!) attack with less gateways but probably can rescure your gateway army. On the other hand Zerg can defend your pushes more easily with getting 1-3 fast swarm hosts. This works out so brilliant... don't know why ppl are complaining about that -_- Yes you can clump up and save your deathball but on the other hand zerg has the viper to pull your units out of the ball. And tbh - who as a zerg would not like to trade an infestationpit against 2 or 3 colossus when protoss retreats? damn i really wanted to stay out of here...
I see your point, a lot of the other changes like the pull work against the deathball, agreed. But that doesn't change the fact that a recall ability that recalls all units becomes unusable in multi-pronged agression scenarios, since you can't recall one group of units and leave the other on the battlefield. So the recall ability alone works in favor of single-pronged agression-styles, namely the deathball. I'm not saying the whole expansion favors that, but the recall ability certainly does.
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On June 09 2012 09:01 Oboeman wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:59 artosismermaid wrote:
late-game tvz just got 100 times harder with these free swarm host units. I can envision it now. broodlord infestor swarmhost transforms a 200/200 zerg army into a 300/300 army with all the free unlimited units they can spawn and terran units can never get close to. especially now that swarm hosts locusts can target air too. vikings even more usless late game against broodlords now. yeah the zerg strategy will be getting the marines and hellions to run out of ammunition.
how does that make sense, terran units will take damage and be killed by free units, which at first they may kill but they will keep coming and you never kill the source of them?
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So, does the warhound no longer have AA capabilities? Because I thought that was the whole point of making them (better AA than thors), to make mech more well-rounded.
Also, why does Protoss and Zerg get these cool and inventive units while Terran is stuck with transformer hellions and the goliath's ugly brother?
If this is more or less what HotS will be I will switch race, lol.
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mother of god so HYPED FOR PROTOSS. So the mothership kind of upgrades the nexus similiar to Planetary. wat.
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I haven't read this entire thread but did anybody else notice that the Mothership in heart of the swarm has Stasis??? When they mouse over it on the nexus, one of the abilities (the mothership, not the core) was "stasis" between recall and vortex. Holy crap?!!!!! Can't wait to see that in action
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Russian Federation4295 Posts
There are another interesting thing. Full energy recharge of any building... mass chrono-boost incoming! :D
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On June 09 2012 09:00 Tantaburs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 09 2012 08:56 o)_Saurus wrote:On June 09 2012 08:46 guruPanda wrote:On June 09 2012 08:40 Solo Terran wrote:On June 09 2012 08:33 NDDseer wrote:
Best update of the whole lot to me is the mothership core, rewards players who manage use of their energy well and beefs up the defenders bonus in PvP.
Also, are we now going to see sudden requirements to micro around your units when a couple of them pick up widow mines, so that only the ones actually attached to the thing take any damage? If so, that's a really cool change too. The recall ability is retarded and will be taken out since it cannot be balanced. Wait until 150 energy-> warp in proxy units-> do damage and then when the enemy comes to defend you just recall out. Blink into main-> do damage -> recall back into base. Blizzard wtf are you thinking. The most important aspect of the new recall, a lot of people seem to be missing that, is that it recalls ALL of the Protosses units. You cannot select a small amount of harassing units. So using the recall will basically destroy all your positioning and leave you very vulknerable to counter harassment, runby's and so on. The bad thing about that is of yourse that it pushes Toss into a deathball-direction even more, since the recall becomes unusable as soon as you fight at more than one front. If your opponent lets you sit on 2 bases and build up your deathball, yeah. Otherwise the way this recall thing works leads completly to the other direction, making harrass more viable way earlier but still limits it to ne nexus energy and therefore does not make it too powerful. Current state now is protoss going more or less allin on 2 bases and only into macrogame if zerg holds the first attack. Now you might (and have to!) attack with less gateways but probably can rescure your gateway army. On the other hand Zerg can defend your pushes more easily with getting 1-3 fast swarm hosts. This works out so brilliant... don't know why ppl are complaining about that -_- Yes you can clump up and save your deathball but on the other hand zerg has the viper to pull your units out of the ball. And tbh - who as a zerg would not like to trade an infestationpit against 2 or 3 colossus when protoss retreats? damn i really wanted to stay out of here... your post seems to have nothing to do with his. He is saying that the nexus recall pulls all attacking units you own back to the core which destroys any positioning you have set up and almost forces a deathball since it auto groups your units together. You go off about how this lets you harass more and not use a deathball
You just don't understand how one leads into another, right?
Why do Protoss get their deathball? Because early attacks are really good or basically game ending if they fail. That has changed. Zerg has become better units. You basically have to pressure zerg now.
Result: Deathball won't happen and if it happens because protoss still camps (which you can't really do with viper pulling out your expensive units) recall is not as bad as the first poster originally said.
edit/ ah nvm. blizzard totally stupid, game imba, graphics crap, noob game!! never buy it.... bla bla. -_-
Hope you are statisfied now, enjoy your starcraft!
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EPT
