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On June 12 2012 04:43 MCDayC wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on. High five! I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread.
Apparently im a complete nutcase for saying this but; I love the way it looks. I just think the model is fantastic it looks like a giant crane with lots of firepower ( sort of thing you would do in real life if you make a killing machine robot guy; just throw a bunch of guns on a bunch of iron bars and make it moveable). It isnt pretty, but it gets the job done.
However it does seem like a 1a unit which I dont like.
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Alright here are my proposed fixes for Fungal:
Given the new blinding cloud, abduct, and ultralisk charge abilities, I think it would be safe to say that keeping it at 100% immobilization might be overkill at this point. Besides balance concerns, it lowers skill interaction, by taking control of their units away from the player. So the first step is obviously to change paralysis on fungal to a slowing effect. But that's an obvious fix which has been proposed by tons of people before.
The second part is what I call a 'bloom' effect, which would further increase skill requirements on both sides. Rather than the full area of effect being hit at once, this would cause fungal to spread from the center to the edges of its radius over a time period of 1.5 seconds. To compensate for the disparity you would increase the duration of the spell at the center to 5.5 seconds and decrease it at each interval outwards so that it still wears off for all affected units simultaneously. This sounds complicated on paper but in practice it's really not.
What the bloom does is allow for very skilled players to split DURING the fungal spread to minimize damage to their units, and requires more accurate precision from the zerg player to snare quick moving targets.
The last concern is that if you keep the same static damage value for the entire spell, it will have a higher DPS at the edges and lower towards the center, which seems counter-intuitive. To fix this you would change the damage to an actual damage-per-second basis instead of a set total - basically, every half-second a unit is affected by fungal, it takes 4 damage. This means that units at the edges of the AoE would take a total of 32, while the units at the direct center will take a total of 44. This makes fungal growth more like splash damage, which feels more visceral in my opinion, and again rewards higher skilled players for accurate targeting of specific units. 44 is also a perfect maximum number as it is just enough to not kill any SCVs with a single FG (same with marines but they would generally have combat shields by that point anyway). Lastly remove the bonus damage versus armored, it isn't necessary when fungal is getting an overall base damage buff.
Thoughts? Did I explain it well enough? Again, while this might sound complicated on paper, it would actually be pretty easy to understand in game.
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Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core.
So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ?
Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ?
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On June 12 2012 05:47 Veldril wrote:
I think the current build of warhound is just a placeholder because Blizz cannot tweak it in time for MLG.
In my opinion, I think warhound should be tweak to be a "mech's ghost" more than a mech's marauder, with the missile tweak to be like snipe but only affects the mechanical unit.
That sounds like an idea. You can allow its primary weapon to continue firing but then you can target fire with the missile. And maybe you allow it to target bio but just do bonus damage to mech, so that the warhound isn't totally gimped against zerg.
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On June 12 2012 07:47 JyB wrote:Show nested quote +Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core. So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ? Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ?
It'll look like tempests kiting brood lords with impunity across the entire fucking map. Nobody is going to use such an immobile style when we have speed hydras, burrow charge ultras, and viper support now.
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Does anyone know how the Korean community is reacting to the HOTS stuff?
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On June 12 2012 07:39 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:43 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on. High five! I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread. Apparently im a complete nutcase for saying this but; I love the way it looks. I just think the model is fantastic it looks like a giant crane with lots of firepower ( sort of thing you would do in real life if you make a killing machine robot guy; just throw a bunch of guns on a bunch of iron bars and make it moveable). It isnt pretty, but it gets the job done. However it does seem like a 1a unit which I dont like.
the warhound was specifically made for terran styles that don't involve a lot of harassment in the form of bio drops. if you;re going with a bio or bio/mech army you typically need to harass a zerg a lot in zvt, because otherwise they'll get out of control very easily. but if the zerg is good enough to stopp the harassment, you basically have no chance.
the warhound is made for the terran player who doesn't like to go all out bio harassment in zvt(for example) and doesn't like the mega turtle style of mech (if you push out before maxed you're in a very bad spot) either.
the intended idea behind this unit is that you'd not have to rely on drop harassment as a main factor in a game, but instead you can make early mech pushes with warhounds and widdow mines as backup, therefore not relying on drop harassment too much, while also not having to go uber turtle mode.
this unit is the reason there will be another way for playing mech, either you go all out turtle mode with thor tank and hellion/warhound or you go a more fast paced mech style with warhound/hellion pushes with widow mine support.
ps: marine/widow mine drops, make it happen! (or widdow mines to block expansions in a similar way zerg uses burrowed ling)
EDIT: this is mroe of a reply to the guy saying no one defended the warhound yet 
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I really like the new units they added, some awesome high risk but high reward stuff they added as well as nice changes and upgrades to current units. Just what the game needed so it gets a little bit more exciting to watch and play.
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On June 12 2012 07:47 JyB wrote:Show nested quote +Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core. So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ? Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ?
Mothership can Stasis Air.
Basicly they split vortex into two spell, one for ground, one for air.
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On June 12 2012 08:07 Ippo wrote:
I really like the new units they added, some awesome high risk but high reward stuff they added as well as nice changes and upgrades to current units. Just what the game needed so it gets a little bit more exciting to watch and play.
Personally I like alot of the changes, but I hate the Terran changes.
Widow Mines are great, and for the most part cost effective in the earlygame. Unfortunately, Storm and Collosi(Not to mention that they can be FGed) can simply sweep them away. They also eat away valuable supply/gas that we need to put in Tanks(3 Food), Hellions(2 Food), Vikings(2 Food), and Ghost(2 food).
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I think the viper grab needs to be more like the guy from HoN. The spell was a grab in a direction and you grab any unit you touch. So instead of doing point and click on a tank, you have to cast it in the tanks direction to grab it. But you should also be able to grab your own units, so you can pull ultras to safety, or maybe you grab a zergling because you sent them in too soon. It would reward the skilled player, and also would reward the terran who has better positioning.. The zerg might have to grab a unit from the side because there are hellions in the way to be killed by a small force, or he might have to try and sneak vipers from behind to pull important units away from the engagement. It might become to easy to zone out the viper with battle hellions and vikings, but I think it's worth looking into and can always be rebalanced by giving it more range or less requirements for energy.
But then there is the problem of, how do I determine whether I target an air or ground unit? like if a colossus is right over a stalker, or if a medivac is hovering over a tank, which is prioritized? I guess they could simply split the grab into two spells where one prioritizes over air and the other is ground.
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On June 12 2012 07:47 JyB wrote:Show nested quote +Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core. So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ? Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ?
I don't know what that means, because Statis isn't a thing.
Edit: Maybe he meant Stasis, as in not moving? If that's the case, then that won't really help against broodlords anyway, as they're so slow that "stasising" them for a short amount of time would pretty much be irrelevant (not much different than chasing them down). They just wouldn't clump, so you can't archon toilet them... I suppose that would be the difference. If they can't shoot while being stasised (like in BW), then that would be nice too.
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I dont know how much this mechanic translates to RTS, but every time I hear someone say that stuns destroy skill I cringe. Compare DOTA to Lol (5 months ago. I havent played since then) and tell me that stuns dont raise the skill ceiling. Punishing people for their mistakes is essential
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Canada11350 Posts
On June 12 2012 07:39 NukeD wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 04:43 MCDayC wrote:On June 12 2012 04:29 Sapphire.lux wrote: And yes, Warhound IS a boring unit. That I 100% agree with you on. High five! I haven't seen a single written, thought out defence of the warhound, in fact a lot of the people defending it think that it is still an mobile anti-air replacement for the Thor (an idea that I didn't mind, as long as it kept the aerial splash) but the current form is terrible, and I'd be interested to see why some people thought it was a great addition in the poll thread. Apparently im a complete nutcase for saying this but; I love the way it looks. I just think the model is fantastic it looks like a giant crane with lots of firepower ( sort of thing you would do in real life if you make a killing machine robot guy; just throw a bunch of guns on a bunch of iron bars and make it moveable). It isnt pretty, but it gets the job done.
However it does seem like a 1a unit which I dont like.
That's the main thing really.
Because if you think about it, they could just take the marauder, give it wheels and robotize their armour, and put it into the factory and say. There. You will now go mech more often. But functionally it's not a different play style.
When Artosis waxes eloquent about mech play, I don't necessarily think he minds that 3 functional units come from the Barracks and we need a 4th unit from the Factory for more 'mech play.' Mech play is positional, it's incremental and it's all about controlling space. Aka tanks, vultures, mines- and for a hard push turrets, bunker/supply depots to hinder the Protoss army. And perhaps late game mobility with shuttle-tanks and/or breaking great siege lines with wraiths, battlecruisers, or nukes.
It's a very chess style of play and not run around with one big group of fast troops and base trade if you get out of position. Warhound is a mech unit, certainly. But it doesn't help mech style play. In fact it looks like it is designed to kill mech style play because it is designed to the tank. So basically the anti-thesis of mech play despite coming from the factory.
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Warhound is not a 1A unit. When set to autocast the missles will always shoot the closest mechanical enemy. Because of this I expect that 90% of the time pro players will be disabling the autocast so that they can target fire the missles at key enemy units which generally speaking are never the closest of the enemy mechs in the area. Immortals (The missles do great damage despite hardened shields), sentries, tanks, etc.
By disabling the autocast you can also effectively focus fire on 2 units at a time. First you shift attack click thru your targets, then once in range you hold down the missile cast key and click thru other targets. This is similar to how snipe is most effectively used by a ghost, because by spam casting the spell on different targets than you shift-click attack on you minimise overkill damage on the spell.
This is the first unit which has been designed in which we are likely to turn auto-cast on/off depending on the situation and in which the spell which can be auto cast can benifit a lot more greatly by manual targeting in some situations.
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On June 12 2012 08:09 Noocta wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2012 07:47 JyB wrote:Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core. So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ? Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ? Mothership can Stasis Air. Basicly they split vortex into two spell, one for ground, one for air.
I'm not impressed with the current Mothership plan simply because it doesn't seem like it would have much of a role to play. I'd rather see it get the building stasis spell that the oracle used to have. That way the situation in which you'd convert your core into a mothership would be when you wanted to bust a heavy defence open.
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On June 12 2012 07:47 JyB wrote:Show nested quote +Mothership is still around. It loses its cloaking but keeps Recall and Vortex (ground only now). It has a new spell called Statis, which puts mothership and other air units in range into statis for 20 seconds. Unlocked with fleet beacon, made from mothership core. So that means, if BL/Infest is still a viable lategame option in PvZ on hots, mothership wont be able to vortex the BL ? Do you guys know how lategame PvZ will look like then ?
I'm thinking the tempest and it's 22 range is supposed too fill that role. Hammer on the BL with the tempest, and do an aggresive blink with stalkers to try and kill some infestors, if you get caught with a fungal you recall back to the nexus, recharge shields and go in again
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On June 12 2012 10:15 DeCoup wrote:
Warhound is not a 1A unit. When set to autocast the missles will always shoot the closest mechanical enemy. Because of this I expect that 90% of the time pro players will be disabling the autocast so that they can target fire the missles at key enemy units which generally speaking are never the closest of the enemy mechs in the area. Immortals (The missles do great damage despite hardened shields), sentries, tanks, etc.
By disabling the autocast you can also effectively focus fire on 2 units at a time. First you shift attack click thru your targets, then once in range you hold down the missile cast key and click thru other targets. This is similar to how snipe is most effectively used by a ghost, because by spam casting the spell on different targets than you shift-click attack on you minimise overkill damage on the spell.
This is the first unit which has been designed in which we are likely to turn auto-cast on/off depending on the situation and in which the spell which can be auto cast can benifit a lot more greatly by manual targeting in some situations.
They will not manually cast. You never seen a pro manually casts zealot's charge, right? Even though they can. Often time, many of their zealots just mistakenly charge into the enemy but in fact they can manually cast. But they don't do that. One reason is that the cooldown is very short (both chargelot and warhound's missiles). Manually casting is suboptimal in fact. So I would say they probably will just use auto-cast.
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On June 12 2012 09:58 BronzeLeague wrote:
I dont know how much this mechanic translates to RTS, but every time I hear someone say that stuns destroy skill I cringe. Compare DOTA to Lol (5 months ago. I havent played since then) and tell me that stuns dont raise the skill ceiling. Punishing people for their mistakes is essential
Completely off topic, but you can't really compare stuns in DOTA and LoL because of the input delay/slow turning/movement speeds in DOTA compared to LoL. A stun in DOTA has to be at least 0.75 seconds longer to compensate for that.
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EPT
