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On June 07 2012 23:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:19 Dalavita wrote:On June 07 2012 23:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 23:05 Twelve12 wrote:
to be fair it is pretty hard to make good patch changes that don't break the game either way. Personally i think a reasonable change for the next patch would be to change snipe back to how it used to be While I think we should hold off on more patch changes for the time being (June will be bad because of the recent Zerg buffs, but we should wait until July to see if it re-stabilizes like always), I think this would be a better eventual option if need be: Why don't they just give the tiniest nerf to broodlords? Aren't they the real problem? I thought both of these were the case: 1. Terran really struggles in late game TvZ because of infestor/ corruptor/ broodlord (the first two stop anything from getting to the broodlords, and the broodlords roll over armies) and 2. Protoss really struggles in late game PvZ unless they get a lucky vortex (stopped by merely spreading or splitting broodlords or sniping the mothership with corruptors first). It seems the common denominator here is the broodlords. Why not give them the tiniest life or armor nerf or something that makes them more easily killable? The problem isn't the brood lords, it's the infestors that allow for the brood lords to become such a huge problem, while also being extremely strong in every other area of the game. If the problem is only the infestors, then the ghosts can actually already deal with them >.>
I'm sorry to say, but getting Ghosts in the late game TvZ just to kill the Infestors is an overkill. Just like getting more than 6 Vikings if Protoss has up to 2 Colossi and the rest is Zealot HT.
Firstly, Infestors are relatively fast, especially on creep, so it's very hard to snipe them or land an emp, not to say, that with nerfed radius, one emp can not hit more than 3 Infestors, even if perfectly aimed. Secondly, Ghosts costs 2 supply and a lot of Gas. If you get enough Ghosts to deal with 10-14 Infestors (average amount for late game Zerg), you won't have enough Marauders/Vikings/Tanks. That's why 99% of the Terrans today don't get Ghosts. It's better to count on good split and avoiding fungals, than neutralizing Infestor, but then dying anyways to Zergs brute force and monstrous amount of units he can spit after every engagement. That is, because Ghosts are right now useless against anything but Infestors in TvZ.
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On June 07 2012 23:14 IshinShishi wrote:
Ever since the latest patch I consider the Blizzard employees concerned with balance(David Kim and crew?)pure baboons, they managed to MAJORLY fuck up the most balanced matchup(and also, the most entertaining one by far) without even giving the patch enough time to get a proper amount of feedback, baboons is what they are.There are people playing this game for a living, they deserve better than this.
There has been one season in the history of code S with more than 4 zergs in the Ro16 and it was in October when there were 5, really only because terran were dominating protoss that season and no protoss made it (similarly, the Super Tournament had 1 toss, 9 terran, and 6 zerg. However, only one of those 6 made it to the quarterfinals). There were three seasons where 4 made it, and the rest were 3 or less. That is in no way a balanced matchup. The fact that it is the most entertaining does not mean it balanced, and plus the games since the patch have for the most part been great games still, just zergs win most of them rather than terran winning most of them. I think the patch may have been too strong, but the fact that it was entertaining in no way proves that it was balanced. There has been a fundamental flaw in the early game since release, and this is the first to do something about it.
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On June 07 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
These stats aren't very helpful for PvZ mostly because the Korean metagame against Zerg is to 2base all-in in order to avoid BL/Infestor. Looking at the styles of Parting/MC/Squirtle etc., they all all-in more than 50% of the time in PvZ, which unhelpfully inflates the statistics to make it look like Protoss has an event shot in a macro game.
Looking into the Terran race this is true for both TvZ and TvP, where terrans tend to win in the midgame.
I think Terrans will have to hold tight and hope that HOTS solves things somewhat ^^.
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Not surprising Zerg is doing so well after possibly the biggest buff of all time. I'm going to give it a while longer before I complain or anything though.
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On June 07 2012 23:29 MateShade wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:27 sevia wrote:
Marine-tank is on its way out, I think. Recent changes have forced terrans to reevaluate how to play the early- and mid-game vs. a monster economy zerg, and I'm confident that as soon as terrans like MVP can work out the timings and details, a late-game oriented mech style will present itself as the better option. While I agree, I think that marine tank medivac vs ling bling muta is the most entertaining sc2 to watch, so it's sad that tvz is now dominated by infestor vs undecided terran
i'm playing mech at a decent (highish master lvl) and while the timing oriented stuff and the crisp bo are exciting to play, sc2 mech is resumed to a turtling phase into a death push in 90%of the game, both v T and Z. Compare it to marine tank and you'll start to enjoy TvP as a viewer...
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3815 Posts
On June 07 2012 23:33 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
These stats aren't very helpful for PvZ mostly because the Korean metagame against Zerg is to 2base all-in in order to avoid BL/Infestor. Looking at the styles of Parting/MC/Squirtle etc., they all all-in more than 50% of the time in PvZ, which unhelpfully inflates the statistics to make it look like Protoss has an event shot in a macro game. Looking into the Terran race this is true for both TvZ and TvP, where terrans tend to win in the midgame. I think Terrans will have to hold tight and hope that HOTS solves things somewhat ^^.
Yeah. It's honestly pretty infuriating in the sense that Zerg players can just say "hey, the stats aren't that bad yet; game's balanced" without considering how Zerg is capable of winning at pretty much any stage of the game whereas the other two races only tend to win in the midgame or early game.
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On June 07 2012 23:33 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
These stats aren't very helpful for PvZ mostly because the Korean metagame against Zerg is to 2base all-in in order to avoid BL/Infestor. Looking at the styles of Parting/MC/Squirtle etc., they all all-in more than 50% of the time in PvZ, which unhelpfully inflates the statistics to make it look like Protoss has an event shot in a macro game. Looking into the Terran race this is true for both TvZ and TvP, where terrans tend to win in the midgame. I think Terrans will have to hold tight and hope that HOTS solves things somewhat ^^.
I'd argue that it's even more true for Terran, as
Roach Max out still kills Protoss alot more than a 6 or 8 gate kills terran
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On June 07 2012 23:33 Zorgaz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:25 Shiori wrote:
These stats aren't very helpful for PvZ mostly because the Korean metagame against Zerg is to 2base all-in in order to avoid BL/Infestor. Looking at the styles of Parting/MC/Squirtle etc., they all all-in more than 50% of the time in PvZ, which unhelpfully inflates the statistics to make it look like Protoss has an event shot in a macro game. Looking into the Terran race this is true for both TvZ and TvP, where terrans tend to win in the midgame. I think Terrans will have to hold tight and hope that HOTS solves things somewhat ^^.
That's right. Right now, my every build for TvZ and TvP revolves around ending the game before the 12-15 minute mark. If it gets to the late game I just switch to mech or sky terran, since it's the only way to win unless you have 300+ APM. I have roughly 170-180 average (up to 350 during engagements, but it's irrelevant if you can get high APM just for a few seconds, not for 25 minutes straight) and it's by far not enough to win with bio-based armies in the late game vsZ or vsP.
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On June 07 2012 23:32 Zeetox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 23:19 Dalavita wrote:On June 07 2012 23:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 23:05 Twelve12 wrote:
to be fair it is pretty hard to make good patch changes that don't break the game either way. Personally i think a reasonable change for the next patch would be to change snipe back to how it used to be While I think we should hold off on more patch changes for the time being (June will be bad because of the recent Zerg buffs, but we should wait until July to see if it re-stabilizes like always), I think this would be a better eventual option if need be: Why don't they just give the tiniest nerf to broodlords? Aren't they the real problem? I thought both of these were the case: 1. Terran really struggles in late game TvZ because of infestor/ corruptor/ broodlord (the first two stop anything from getting to the broodlords, and the broodlords roll over armies) and 2. Protoss really struggles in late game PvZ unless they get a lucky vortex (stopped by merely spreading or splitting broodlords or sniping the mothership with corruptors first). It seems the common denominator here is the broodlords. Why not give them the tiniest life or armor nerf or something that makes them more easily killable? The problem isn't the brood lords, it's the infestors that allow for the brood lords to become such a huge problem, while also being extremely strong in every other area of the game. If the problem is only the infestors, then the ghosts can actually already deal with them >.> I'm sorry to say, but getting Ghosts in the late game TvZ just to kill the Infestors is an overkill. Just like getting more than 6 Vikings if Protoss has up to 2 Colossi and the rest is Zealot HT. Firstly, Infestors are relatively fast, especially on creep, so it's very hard to snipe them or land an emp, not to say, that with nerfed radius, one emp can not hit more than 3 Infestors, even if perfectly aimed. Secondly, Ghosts costs 2 supply and a lot of Gas. If you get enough Ghosts to deal with 10-14 Infestors (average amount for late game Zerg), you won't have enough Marauders/Vikings/Tanks. That's why 99% of the Terrans today don't get Ghosts. It's better to count on good split and avoiding fungals, than neutralizing Infestor, but then dying anyways to Zergs brute force and monstrous amount of units he can spit after every engagement. That is, because Ghosts are right now useless against anything but Infestors in TvZ.
I think you raised good points that I hadn't thought about. That gives me a lot to consider 
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On June 07 2012 23:35 Greggle wrote:
Not surprising Zerg is doing so well after possibly the biggest buff of all time. I'm going to give it a while longer before I complain or anything though.
You can't really think queen ground range buff is bigger than the roach range buff xD
I know that was after a big nerf, but still.
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I think queen buff was fine in the ZvT matchup, to deal with all those cheeses. Rather than reversing the buff, they should buff terran non-cheese play in some way.
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On June 07 2012 23:43 []Phase[] wrote:
I think queen buff was fine in the ZvT matchup, to deal with all those cheeses. Rather than reversing the buff, they should buff terran non-cheese play in some way.
cheese (like 11/11) occurs before a queen is out. You might think before telling such things...
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Talk about volatility...
Seriously surprised about TvP though, would have thought Protoss had been in the green, seeing as just about every terran pro is trying to find new ways to play it!
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winrates where in favor of terran for a long time, so stop qq'ing, most probably this is a metagame hic-up. I don't think this will persist. T will need to adapt. I think the queen buff targeted the ZvZ match-up, which was way too coin flippy.
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On June 07 2012 23:27 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 23:24 Dalavita wrote:On June 07 2012 23:20 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 23:19 Dalavita wrote:On June 07 2012 23:17 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On June 07 2012 23:05 Twelve12 wrote:
to be fair it is pretty hard to make good patch changes that don't break the game either way. Personally i think a reasonable change for the next patch would be to change snipe back to how it used to be While I think we should hold off on more patch changes for the time being (June will be bad because of the recent Zerg buffs, but we should wait until July to see if it re-stabilizes like always), I think this would be a better eventual option if need be: Why don't they just give the tiniest nerf to broodlords? Aren't they the real problem? I thought both of these were the case: 1. Terran really struggles in late game TvZ because of infestor/ corruptor/ broodlord (the first two stop anything from getting to the broodlords, and the broodlords roll over armies) and 2. Protoss really struggles in late game PvZ unless they get a lucky vortex (stopped by merely spreading or splitting broodlords or sniping the mothership with corruptors first). It seems the common denominator here is the broodlords. Why not give them the tiniest life or armor nerf or something that makes them more easily killable? The problem isn't the brood lords, it's the infestors that allow for the brood lords to become such a huge problem, while also being extremely strong in every other area of the game. If the problem is only the infestors, then the ghosts can actually already deal with them >.> Ghosts can sort of deal with infestors, but not mass infestors, and they get rolled by everything else zerg. Infestors can deal with everything terran and work as great support for brood lords. Well obviously, infestors don't have unlimited energy, the Terran is going to need more than just ghosts (and more than just two ghosts against *mass* infestor), and- again- the infestors shouldn't be able to get away with fungaling everything so easily (positioning, siege line, splitting/ micro, etc.). I think it's more of a broodlord problem, as they're the Zerg siege units. ::shrugs::
The problem is at its worst when zerg has brood lords and infestors, because brood lords rain down hell upon the terran with free broodlings. The terran is then forced to make the first move either by trying to get in and kill the broods with vikings or marines (or thors I guess), but the infestors are always sitting under them ready to fungal whatever it is that can kill the brood lords. The issue is that you need mass ghosts to deal with mass infestors, and you also need to deny most if not all of the fungals in order to win. In order to win the battle the zerg needs to land two or three fungals on your anti brood lord units, something that's easy to do once you land the first one and root them in place. I have yet to see a terran deny every single fungal to mass infestors since the ghosts expose themselves to brood lords and fungal range while EMPing, and simply because you can't blanket EMP 15 infestors without having any of them get a fungal off in time.
And that doesn't take into account that mass ghosts is useless against everything else that the zerg has after the snipe nerf, whereas infestors are great against literally everything terran has. Or that the zerg simply has to a-move the brood lords and wait with the infestors with the fungal spell ready to go against any answer the terran has.
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I play Zerg.
I think Queen range and Ovi Speed is good for ZvZ and make more solid the others macthes. But i think that Blizzar as gone to far with some Terran nerfs.
Ghost i think must return to original statistics, just make Ultra inmune to snipe, it,s alredy inmune to fungal rooting and more things. Terran alredy have the marauder in the barracks.
Also now that maps are bigger i think that the nerfs to early game where excesive. Macro like crazy till 2 bases are saturated is boring...
maybe a reaper buff??
I expect some form of arrasement for zerg before muta also (in HOTS), now you only can macro or allin. With zerg fast tech is allin.
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If you take the word cheese out though, you can think about it logically. There's no way to actually prove that Terran is weak in the late game, because the win rates were relatively balanced. Protoss an mostly Zerg were given early game buffs,
So if Terran was weak late game this should show statistically now, no?
Terran players worried about their late game should be happy and be patient, in reality this is what they want
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Proleague should be out of the statistics. They barely know how to play the game. Balance is pointless in this case.
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Everyone saying terran needs to chill out and wait to see the results of the next few months needs to keep in mind that most of these games were from BEFORE the queen buff. Did that push it over into the 4th most unbalanced month in the last year? Maybe, but either way, it certainly wasn't going particularly well for terrans before the buff that killed off half their openers.
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On June 07 2012 23:46 chuscorral wrote:
I play Zerg.
I think Queen range and Ovi Speed is good for ZvZ and make more solid the others macthes. But i think that Blizzar as gone to far with some Terran nerfs.
Ghost i think must return to original statistics, just make Ultra inmune to snipe, it,s alredy inmune to fungal rooting and more things. Terran alredy have the marauder in the barracks.
Also now that maps are bigger i think that the nerfs to early game where excesive. Macro like crazy till 2 bases are saturated is boring...
maybe a reaper buff??
I expect some form of arrasement for zerg before muta also, now you only can macro or allin. With zerg fast tech is allin.
Ah also i forget ravens. Terran has to make ravens,
Dont talk me about the gas!! I agree that Raven is expensive early to mid-game. But Terran floats tons of gas lategame, and they need minerals for marines. I think the raven is needed to figth the creep. I know zerg creep has exploded with 4 queens, and it can reach Terran base, but one raven on 3 bases>>>>>>>7 scans...
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EPT
