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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Of course the team doesn't want to throw their player under the bus.
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On June 05 2012 12:23 lulutheking wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote:
This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting Completely agree, take any replays of anybody and taken out of context anyone will find something suspicious... This is witch hunting honestly.... We all do things not conventional in our games , if you take them out of context then you'll find lots of not normal things...
we're also not pro's who have a history of cheating.
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I just love how people keep asking Catz to open the APM tab to check on what hes doing while "screen locked", and still that is the thing he does not checks.
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This is crap, I haven't seen anything conclusive on Illusions stream, but because a couple bloodthirsty pros say hes guilty, spades is done forever. There's a reason one group can't be judge jury and executioner.
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Yeah, this sounds like a crock of bullshit. If you go looking for maphacking obviously you'll find it, especially with the way the fp camera is setup. All the "evidence" of him hacking is inconclusive and fails to explain:
1) Why would he hack here, for nothing? When he is a pro player with everything on the line, why would he risk that with for no reward?
2) If he was map hacking, how the fuck does he lose? It doesn't make any sense, he should have easily been able to win but he doesn't. He'd have to be the worse map hacker in the history of the game; he has experience at it he should at least be decent. You people are spending too much time focusing on things he accidently gets right and not enough time on all the shit he misses that actually costs him the match.
3) Who is the op? Why should I lend any credence whatsoever to the accusations of a 1 post random? He hasn't posted since this thread went up, whats he doing?
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On June 05 2012 12:22 shabinka wrote:
Let's assume what we are trying to prove... and then prove it.
I agree with this completely. People shouldn't be going into this with a decision already in mind. Don't find evidence to prove a theory, find a theory to fit the evidence.
That said, looking at the replays myself and watching CatZ analysis, it's pretty hard to believe there's not something suspicious going on. The watching reinforcements while moving an army against Theognis' army in TvT, all via minimap was what sold me.
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I don't get it, what is so fun about hacking? The best and most fun thing about starcraft 2 is when you outsmart your opponent and defeat him. Hacking just takes half the fun away - the outsmart part.
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WHAT? Leenock was over a guys shoulder at MLG Providence? How can that possibly be true? That's a huge accusation that puts the entirely legitimacy of MLG on the line.
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On June 05 2012 12:23 knOxStarcraft wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:17 LambtrOn wrote:On June 05 2012 12:15 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 05 2012 12:10 LambtrOn wrote:On June 05 2012 12:09 knOxStarcraft wrote:On June 05 2012 12:05 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 11:58 GhandiEAGLE wrote:
Catz seems pretty sure here... he better be careful though, if he is wrong then he is going to have to make some HUGE apologies It won't matter, mob mentality is working against me. I will never been "proven" innocent. If they want to find suspicious actions they will, and all of their fans will take everything they say as fact. They keep saying i camera lock whenever i go over fog of war. And other times they say "here he is looking in fog of war" If i had camera lock how am i looking in fog of war. This makes no sense and contradicts itself. I knew no good would come of them analyzing, because anything except 100% innocence, condemns me. This is why what they're doing is wrong, streaming this analysis is very unprofessional and is the wrong way to go. What's so wrong about it? It's transparent for us viewers, which I like. Everything they are saying is fair. It's wrong because they're trying to prove him guilty not prove him innocent. It's completely biased and streaming it to people will destroy spades' reputation even if he's actually innocent Are you watching the stream? The evidence is pretty convincing. He has a history. Of course they are going to be suspicious. They have not said he is 100% a hacker. They are going through replays and gathering evidence. The evidence is damning. But a trial shouldn't be streamed to the public, regardless of who the person is, because even if the person is innocent this way, they will be treated as if they're guilty by the community
That's fair.
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On June 05 2012 12:08 bennyaus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:06 Parcelleus wrote:
Catz and co stream is just a biased joke, are they all like angry teens or something ?
Dont worry Spades, you seem to be in the clear - you provided 50 replays to be scrutinized so you are in the clear.
Some folks like catz and co are just making fools of themselves with their 'best guesses'. Providing 50 replays puts him in the clear? Talk about biased.....
His win % dropped from 70% to 50% for this set of replays. Someone had ladder stats here.
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This stings for anybody who has never cheated. Real bad. People calling threads like this "disgusting" like carn... What is disgusting is how much this shit goes on, and how we can't do anything about it. That is truely disgusting.
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Oh. Sorry. I'm a math - physics double major. Don't really know how to do proofs. This isn't induction big guy.
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On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
Everyone has a right to know and to form their own opinions. Your organization may have held this/sponsored him, but if other ones are planning to involve him, or already have, in a showmatch(or something else of the sort), they deserve to know if they have been cheated in the past, or are about to be.
So far we seem to be in a mess where there is a enough of a heap of small evidence to raise some warranted suspicion, but not enough to make a confident accusation.
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Why are people surprised that:
1. Lesser known players will do anything to try and gain popularity to cash in; and
2. Known players (i.e. Koreans) would stream cheat in order to gain bragging/honour/money from their friends?
The naivety of the SC2 community is funny.
You have way more $$$ involved in esports now.
In RL, people rob you for $5 and a candy bar, what makes you think they won't cheat at a video game for $100-$1000-$10000?
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So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace.
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On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I can understand you are upset with the situation and how it was handled publicly.
But you are not the only one to judge.
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On June 05 2012 12:18 Karthane wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote:
This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war. There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences.
I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him.
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On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote:
Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
If the OP had not 'posted this disaster in the first place', would WW even be looking into it?
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On June 05 2012 12:27 CaptainCharisma wrote:
So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace.
You're missing the fucking point. He allegedly cheated in a SHOWMATCH. FOR MONEY. THERE IS A BIG DIFFERENCE. Ladder games fine, go cheat your ass off. ladder pts don't mean shit (maybe they do blizz is weird) but when you are playing for money using a hack... ............
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The miracle scan is a pretty big deal, though
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EPT
