07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here
10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.
08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.
Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.
(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Why do I not feel shocked at all by this?
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I really hope TL does post who the "OP" actually is.
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I think, regardless of if Spades is a cheater or not, the community as a whole needs to pay more attention to things like map hacking/stream cheating pros. Online tournaments and qualifiers are becoming bigger and bigger, and thus need to be monitored for hacks much closer.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Well...thats interesting
It just keeps getting bigger and bigger.... next thing you know people will be demanding answers from FXO.
On June 05 2012 12:27 CaptainCharisma wrote: So 7 games out of how many Spades has played? Thousands.
I've played far fewer games than that and I'm pretty sure I could dig up more than 7 replays where I make the perfect blind counters to stuff and make weird army positioning.
This thread is a disgrace.
to bad its 7 games of 1 best of 7...... wake up please
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
What a shame.... Don't see how they can get all uppity about someone like Naniwa throwing a game when they blatantly stream cheat in online tournaments. May not be gsl, but still. I really hope that this issue gains a lot more ground and team managers/coaches start cleaning up their teammate's acts.
On June 05 2012 12:26 Grampz wrote: This stings for anybody who has never cheated. Real bad. People calling threads like this "disgusting" like carn... What is disgusting is how much this shit goes on, and how we can't do anything about it. That is truely disgusting.
Thanks for making the best post in the entire thread.
On June 05 2012 12:27 DamageControL wrote: The miracle scan is a pretty big deal, though
Yeah it's not actually physically possible either since his mouse will have to be off the screen. There's some questionable stuff going on here and it'd be hard to deny it at this point I feel like.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Why do I not feel shocked at all by this?
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I really hope TL does post who the "OP" actually is.
On June 05 2012 12:26 Toons wrote: Why are people surprised that:
1. Lesser known players will do anything to try and gain popularity to cash in; and 2. Known players (i.e. Koreans) would stream cheat in order to gain bragging/honour/money from their friends?
The naivety of the SC2 community is funny.
You have way more $$$ involved in esports now.
In RL, people rob you for $5 and a candy bar, what makes you think they won't cheat at a video game for $100-$1000-$10000?
we are not suprised but this threatens sc2 as a legit competition
On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote: This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting
There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war.
There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences.
I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him.
More players are backing Spades. Finally. If/when Spades gets cleared lets see how fast this vod gets deleted.
On June 05 2012 12:13 Mirhi wrote: Well, while it's bad form to throw someone under the bus, I'm just going to do it because all this came out and I have a fact that actually matters.
Spades stream cheated during showmatches that he played while he lived with me at what was the Reign house. It's a carry over from the stream cheating that many Koreans do in the Korean prohouses (Both Spades and Artist have confirmed with me that Koreans frequently stream cheat in team leagues and showmatches against foreigners out of pride).
If ever I saw it happen when I was in the house, I would immediately try to stop them, but I know on occasion it still occured, most notably in a match Spades played against Gatored last year.
About maphacking, I have no idea and have no opinion on the matter other than either option wouldn't surprise me.
I would want to say though, that cheating occurs way more than people realize, and I actually would not be so hard on him for this evidence, even if it is true. Players better than Spades actively cheat, particularly stream cheat or simply ghosting, because of how easy it is.
Example - Leenock was over a player's shoulder at MLG Providence helping them during a game, giving them hints in Korean.
It's pretty common.
Why do I not feel shocked at all by this?
On June 05 2012 12:21 Martijn wrote: Just so we're clear on something. The only ones that have any right to judge Spades here is the WesternWolves. It was our showmatch and he's our player. We're his sponsor, we're the admins
I got a serious headache watching people try to market this whole mess for viewers clearly looking to make Spades look bad.
So for the record, WW hosted the showmatch, Spades is on the WW team, WW is looking into these accusations, WW will consult experts and WW will release a statement after a conclusion has been drawn.
Oh and as a bonus, WW would love to know who actually posted this disaster in the first place.
I really hope TL does post who the "OP" actually is.
WHY aren't we focusing on the koreans?
Because we need EVIDENCE.
People treated that post as ev for spades, though edit: I was there for the match fixing scandal. sorta nervous
On June 05 2012 12:15 cArn- wrote: This is getting really pathetic, you can point out things that look suspicious very easily for any good player.. I'm baffled as to how this thread is stilll going and those so called "analysis" are taken seriously.
So fucking disgusting
There are 4 pros analyzing this right now, and it's so obvious that he is hacking. he is fucking moving and engaging his army while he is watching his base for like 6 straight seconds, and he moves his army while the enemies army is in the fog of war.
There is NO way he isn't hacking. there are so many instances that couldn't just be pure coincidences.
I could do the same shit after watching 6-7 replays of any other player, and according to this completely flawed logic most korenas are hacking. This is no proof and is never gonna be, you always have days when you sense things more even if you're not a super top player, especially when you study a bunch of games of your opponent before playing him.
Personally I havnt decided yet but what they are talking about is much more than just lucky guessing. Its doing things that just dont make sense unless he is hacking.
Why are we still focused on Spades? We have post saying Koreans we all love do cheat even at big LANs like MLG... I am... well... fuck everything if Koreans have to stream cheat and have other player giving them tips in middle of game at LANs... how does that even get allowed?! FUCK ME!
On June 05 2012 12:29 Parcelleus wrote: No catz and co , your 'hack scan' is what Mvp does all the time, blindly scanning where he think the army will be (to locate army).
Keep going. Spades 1 - Catz and co - 0.
PS: Your whole argument is saying he cannot scan using the mini-map - which he obviously did. That is not hacking.
You have completely misunderstood the huge point they are making.
EPT
