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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
Canada13402 Posts
On June 05 2012 10:02 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:59 ZeromuS wrote:I honestly hope this isn't true, but the only way to deal with this is the following: More replays. The last 100 games played on ladder. If you have played Spades in the last week, find the replay and post it. Thats it. With a HUGE sample then we can perhaps figure it out. But no one who is "sure" that he is hacking should be watching the replays, or we will all be hit with a huge case of tunnel vision. On June 05 2012 09:59 LimeNade wrote:On June 05 2012 06:46 Trizz wrote:On June 05 2012 06:45 Martijn wrote:On June 05 2012 06:42 Xcobidoo wrote:
Just someone who doesn't want his main account to be connected to this incident forever. Which is bullshit. It's ok to ruin someones reputation regardless of whether it's true or false, and somehow he doesn't have to actually deal with any fallout if it's false? Why is this bullshit? If someone wants to remain unknown then he should have that right. It's clear he did a lot of research and tries to "HELP ESPORTS XD420" and report a cheater. Agreed the OP is done well enough that I accept the fact he wants to keep anonymity. Knowing the community if it turns out spades did not hack this person would be roasted. However at the same time until its made conclusive some community members would harass him non stop if his real account was released. Yup, the op should not have done this in anonymity, If he was that sure, he should stand by his position and his statements. That's noble, but you do not know who he is and what he has to lose. People get nasty when you endanger their livelihood...
Great, if its true, and spades is hacking (even though I am not 100% convinced either way) then what would he do? His recourses are all illegal and I don't think that Spades could go that far, not many people would lets be honest.
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People claiming him missing things is evidence of not hacking aren't quite right. Even if you maphack you still have to be watching the minimap, no? If he happens to miss the mini map when a drop occurs, then he's still going to miss the drop even if he has full vision.
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On June 05 2012 10:06 wierdguy wrote:
I feel bad for Spades here. This topic, no matter what the outcome will ruin his image and most likely his career, and all because of someone who is committing libel (if the OP is wrong). Knowing the circumstances of these matches, a showmatch where the replays will almost definitely be released, and there is no money up for grabs; plus him being a hacker in BW who rebuilt his image for SC2. He had no reason to hack, it's a waste of his time and stupid.
I agree. Spades took a bullet, guilty or not.
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On June 05 2012 10:01 .Wraath wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 06:46 Spades wrote:
90% of the day i believe people are hacking against me on ladder. Big name players as well. Everyone is just hack crazy now. I stream 90% of my games. I didn't hack in this series, I haven't hacked in SC2. If you want to find things that look suspicious, It's easy. Not one person here can "prove" i hacked, because i didn't. And now my sc2 image is destroyed. So I'm thankful for that. Guess it's time to retire after Anaheim. Christ dude, I have dealt with a ton of FPS hackers in my admin days and you gave the same exact excuses as them. "Other people are doing it!" "You cant prove it!" ect ect, you have dirtied yourself in the past and are now forever labled with the once a cheater always a cheater. Now you will just delete/remove your account and create a new one probably. Good luck The only person you can blame is yourself.
Those aren't excuses, they are fragments of a defence against harsh accusations rephrased to appear incriminating.
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On June 05 2012 10:05 Pantythief wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:03 Neurosis wrote:On June 05 2012 09:58 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Look at the situation from Spades point of view. Say he doesn't hack, why would he give a fuck about this thread? He's prolly shaking his head off. If there was a large thread about me hacking, I probably wouldn't give a shit either. That doesn't make sense. He is a pro gamer (isn't he?), this is how he makes a living. It's pretty important that a community is posting evidence that will more less destroy your entire career. Yeah, but to be completely honest with you, I can't say that I'm impressed with how the community is "dealing" with this. This has turned into another big free-for-all witch hunt.
The other way to look at it though, if a big deal is not made when evidence is put forward, is that players will have a chance to get away with hacking and continue to make money through the use of these hacks. I'd rather we made a big deal, eventually conclude guilty or innocent, than allow someone to get away with fucking hacking.
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I'm not worried for Spades career, unless its proven beyond a doubt to be true no LAN will dare deny him entry or even bring it up. This community's bloodlust has seen to it that everyone be as pc as possible.
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On June 05 2012 09:57 crazystupid0 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:55 Flonomenalz wrote:
hmmmm idk.
I'm not nearly high level enough to think my opinion on the replays matter, but the one part where he selects an scv WHILE looking at fog... I have no fucking clue how you can possibly do that without hacking unless SC2 is glitched.
I hope he isn't hacking again though, I like spades... If it was a idle scv you can select it with F1 and move it around clicking on the mini map. I do it all the time. You don't have to look at a scv to move it around.
Even though it's not the case in this game, F1 will move your camera to the selected unit.
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On June 05 2012 10:07 KingofGods wrote:
People claiming him missing things is evidence of not hacking aren't quite right. Even if you maphack you still have to be watching the minimap, no? If he happens to miss the mini map when a drop occurs, then he's still going to miss the drop even if he has full vision.
That's too circumstantial to incriminate him with, though.
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On June 05 2012 10:08 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:05 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 10:03 Neurosis wrote:On June 05 2012 09:58 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Look at the situation from Spades point of view. Say he doesn't hack, why would he give a fuck about this thread? He's prolly shaking his head off. If there was a large thread about me hacking, I probably wouldn't give a shit either. That doesn't make sense. He is a pro gamer (isn't he?), this is how he makes a living. It's pretty important that a community is posting evidence that will more less destroy your entire career. Yeah, but to be completely honest with you, I can't say that I'm impressed with how the community is "dealing" with this. This has turned into another big free-for-all witch hunt. The other way to look at it though, if a big deal is not made when evidence is put forward, is that players will have a chance to get away with hacking and continue to make money through the use of these hacks. I'd rather we made a big deal, eventually conclude guilty or innocent, than allow someone to get away with fucking hacking.
The evidence is there, you are right, but it is in question. Just wait for a definite verdict from someone impartial and THEN get your pitchforks
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On June 05 2012 10:08 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:05 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 10:03 Neurosis wrote:On June 05 2012 09:58 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Look at the situation from Spades point of view. Say he doesn't hack, why would he give a fuck about this thread? He's prolly shaking his head off. If there was a large thread about me hacking, I probably wouldn't give a shit either. That doesn't make sense. He is a pro gamer (isn't he?), this is how he makes a living. It's pretty important that a community is posting evidence that will more less destroy your entire career. Yeah, but to be completely honest with you, I can't say that I'm impressed with how the community is "dealing" with this. This has turned into another big free-for-all witch hunt. The other way to look at it though, if a big deal is not made when evidence is put forward, is that players will have a chance to get away with hacking and continue to make money through the use of these hacks. I'd rather we made a big deal, eventually conclude guilty or innocent, than allow someone to get away with fucking hacking.
You've got to understand, though, that although he might be innocent, you've most likely ruined a part of his career for him eitherway. Do you think that's fair?
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On June 05 2012 09:27 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:12 Atokad wrote:I got to game 4 before i agree that there's too much going on. Game 4: Meta I'm more than willing to defend his scouting scv not having to have to look at it to turn it around and send it back to base. Sometimes I just want to know the position of the enemy, and he sees that it is blocked off on the minimap and sends it back. However, to this point: Game 4: Meta
Everything true, really suspicous at 7:30 where he moves his army towards the hellions without seeing, despite the fact he was moving back and forth in same place 10 seconds ago.
random chance 7:30 is all I needed to see. I watched it multiple times and there's no doubt in my mind that he sees the medivac dropping units and he's waiting for them to unload and start moving away from the cliff before he engages. No. I encourage you to watch this one and look at his clicks. He knows they are headed to the top right and takes the angle necessary to cut them off, despite not technically being able to see it. I was okay with the other stuff in the other games, timing related things he could have been familiar with by watching previous replays of this player etc, but this one play at 7:30 on game 4 Meta was just too much. Sorry sir, I have to agree with the OP. Yes, 7:30 on metal stands out noticeably.
i agree. that was REALLY weird.
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On June 05 2012 10:06 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:04 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 10:01 Myles wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Regardless of his quilt/innocence, it doesn't matter one bit what he does. It will all be used as justification for his hacking. He doesn't respond right away - he's hiding so clearly a hacker Does respond right away - he's defensive and his explanation isn't perfect so clearly a hacker Even if he releases 1000 replays it won't change the opinion in the majority of peoples' mind's, Its not looking good for him with the general attitude no, but it would be a good start to upload his folder of replays.. no reason not to! He doesn't owe you anything. That's the best part of all this - the entitlement. When he takes a tournament away from you, maybe you can complain. In the mean time, we're just all angry scrubs looking for our 15 minutes.
Yes, I can only be looking for further evidence, to prove one way or the other, once he takes a tournament off me. Okay.
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"Guys the OP only has 1 post that means this must not be true"
I doesnt matter at all what the writer's intentions are, only whether or not his comments on the replay are accurate. Stop being lazy and watch the replays if you doubt him.
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On June 05 2012 10:08 Jono7272 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:05 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 10:03 Neurosis wrote:On June 05 2012 09:58 Pantythief wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Look at the situation from Spades point of view. Say he doesn't hack, why would he give a fuck about this thread? He's prolly shaking his head off. If there was a large thread about me hacking, I probably wouldn't give a shit either. That doesn't make sense. He is a pro gamer (isn't he?), this is how he makes a living. It's pretty important that a community is posting evidence that will more less destroy your entire career. Yeah, but to be completely honest with you, I can't say that I'm impressed with how the community is "dealing" with this. This has turned into another big free-for-all witch hunt. The other way to look at it though, if a big deal is not made when evidence is put forward, is that players will have a chance to get away with hacking and continue to make money through the use of these hacks. I'd rather we made a big deal, eventually conclude guilty or innocent, than allow someone to get away with fucking hacking.
When evidience comes forward, then you can make a big deal of it, atm we have 1 persons very exagerated accusations, which are easily thrown into question by simply watching the games yourself.
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On June 05 2012 10:06 yeastiality wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 10:04 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 10:01 Myles wrote:On June 05 2012 09:56 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:55 Risen wrote:On June 05 2012 09:45 Jono7272 wrote:On June 05 2012 07:09 Nerchio wrote:
I am a bit sleepy so it won't be as detailed as i would like it to be although i will try my best. To start off, i am not a friend of Spades and i don't even know him personally i guess we never even talked. If he hacked i'd be the first person to shout it out and i am glad that this topic turned into some kind of a discussion(but only a few people say reasonable things and only those should speak that saw the replays). Kind of weird how hard you are trying to defend him for someone who you don't even know and who has a history of hacking.. So you'd rather no one defend spades? Kind of weird how you've managed to get above 2k posts and manage to be such a useless member of the community. His defense has been rushed and poor, if he wants to do it, he should do it properly. Regardless of his quilt/innocence, it doesn't matter one bit what he does. It will all be used as justification for his hacking. He doesn't respond right away - he's hiding so clearly a hacker Does respond right away - he's defensive and his explanation isn't perfect so clearly a hacker Even if he releases 1000 replays it won't change the opinion in the majority of peoples' mind's, Its not looking good for him with the general attitude no, but it would be a good start to upload his folder of replays.. no reason not to! He doesn't owe you anything. That's the best part of all this - the entitlement. When he takes a tournament away from you, maybe you can complain. In the mean time, we're just all angry scrubs looking for our 15 minutes.
Yeah - he doesn't exactly have much of a "career" or any tournament wins. As for your last sentence, is that some weird projecting you're doing about wanting to be famous? What? LOL.
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Im not gonna say i think spades is hacking but to all those who think theres not any evidence i think thats absurd.. in a best of 7 he didnt look into the Fog of war once even to scan.. thats basically all we need to say that he didnt hack isnt it?
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On June 05 2012 10:13 Rylo wrote:
Im not gonna say i think spades is hacking but to all those who think theres not any evidence i think thats absurd.. in a best of 7 he didnt look into the Fog of war once even to scan.. thats basically all we need to say that he didnt hack isnt it?
So eventhough you think there's "evidence" you don't think he's hacking?
That seems pretty weird.
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On June 05 2012 10:04 kalteras wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 09:27 artanis2 wrote:On June 05 2012 09:12 Atokad wrote:I got to game 4 before i agree that there's too much going on. Game 4: Meta I'm more than willing to defend his scouting scv not having to have to look at it to turn it around and send it back to base. Sometimes I just want to know the position of the enemy, and he sees that it is blocked off on the minimap and sends it back. However, to this point: Game 4: Meta
Everything true, really suspicous at 7:30 where he moves his army towards the hellions without seeing, despite the fact he was moving back and forth in same place 10 seconds ago.
random chance 7:30 is all I needed to see. I watched it multiple times and there's no doubt in my mind that he sees the medivac dropping units and he's waiting for them to unload and start moving away from the cliff before he engages. No. I encourage you to watch this one and look at his clicks. He knows they are headed to the top right and takes the angle necessary to cut them off, despite not technically being able to see it. I was okay with the other stuff in the other games, timing related things he could have been familiar with by watching previous replays of this player etc, but this one play at 7:30 on game 4 Meta was just too much. Sorry sir, I have to agree with the OP. Yes, 7:30 on metal stands out noticeably. He's supply blocked and production facilities are queued up so he dances his units around, and doesn't move towards the dropped hellions until he sees them. TvT close by air, I would be paranoid of drops too, if this is the most damning piece of evidence I vote not guilty.
Watch the replay at normal speed. Watch it several times. First, Spades begins moving his army at the EXACT time that Lucifron loads his hellions into the medivac. Second, there is one, single click Spades makes at the EXACT moment that the hellions begin to move after being unloaded but before they are in Spades's vision range. Oddly enough, this single click is in line to directly intercept the hellions and Spades continues to follow that same line to chase them.
These two things seem far too coincidental to be just coincidences, especially in light of all the other strange coincidences spread throughout all the games. After all, if he was scared of drops, why would he not just send his viking to the periphery of his base? Why would he move his entire army around if he was afraid of drops when a group of stimmed marines could run right up his ramp? If he was afraid of drops he could have had his vikings near the back ledge and his main army near the ramp. It's quite clear from the positioning that Spades knew he could send his entire army to deal with the drop.
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EPT
