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[?] Spades hacking? - Page 34

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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here

10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.

08:47 KST - Summary:
Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open.

Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims.

(also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here)
BreakfastBurrito
Profile Joined November 2011
United States893 Posts
June 04 2012 23:13 GMT
#661
i'm glad it is spades under scrutiny here, and not someone i am a big fan of :D
i wish blizzard would get on the hack issue a lil bit more... Its an age old thing in blizzard games o.o
twitch.tv/jaytherey | Yapper891 if you are reading this, PM me. its Twisty.
Gladiator6
Profile Joined June 2010
Sweden7024 Posts
June 04 2012 23:14 GMT
#662
I remember in SC2gears you could see if a guy that was hacking if he's blink micro was legit or not. Isn't it possible to see the same sort of here but with camera lock perhaps or so? Probably not but cool to play around if there's anyway to be able to detect it there from. I'm too tired to do it myself.
Flying, sOs, free, Light, Soulkey & ZerO
Irave
Profile Joined October 2010
United States9965 Posts
June 04 2012 23:14 GMT
#663
On June 05 2012 08:12 Ebzy wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 08:11 Kreb wrote:
Havent read through all random replys, but read most of the point about suspicious actions throughout the game. But anyway, has there actually been any good explanation of why the camera blocks keep occuring over and over, if it wasnt for the reason posted in OP?

If there is no good explanation, and theres no similar camera blocks for Lucifron, isnt it quite obvious?


He said he was having mouse issues, however if thats an excuse or not I'm not sure..

ps : Catz please stream analysis

While that would be cool, you just have to know this will end up on Sotg.
zefreak
Profile Blog Joined December 2011
United States2731 Posts
June 04 2012 23:15 GMT
#664
Someone should check his stream vods to see if he has any of those 'camera lock' instances or periods where he stares at his rax for 9 seconds/scouts similarly. If he does, and they are just weird habits, then he is probably innocent. If there aren't examples of these little things in his streamed games, yet they crop up in the showmatch, then that is fairly strong evidence of hacking.
www.gosu-sc.com - Starcraft News, Strategy and Merchandise
Artok
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands2219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 23:16:32
June 04 2012 23:15 GMT
#665
On June 05 2012 08:13 tsuxiit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 08:01 Hyperiok wrote:
On June 05 2012 07:55 tsuxiit wrote:


I know many other top GM players that maphack as well. Most of us are friends. The most successful of these that I know is a respected pro-gamer, on a team, that has won over €15,000 in prize money. Almost all of that money was won from online tournaments. Surprise, surprise, this guy has one of the most feared ZvZ in the world. To be honest, I am not sure how this person has remain uncaught. He refrains from attending LAN tournaments even though by now, he definitely has the resources to attend them. I think I've only seen him once in a LAN tournament.


All of evidence is incredibly circumstantial, like the fact that Nerchio has a 70% winrate in ZvZ on TLPD. But if you consider the idea that both these players are, in fact, using these programs to cheat and exploit, the story gets incredibly interesting.


I don't think Nerchio maphacks, he had some very close ZvZs against Hyun at Dreamhack (I believe he lost 1-2 but very nearly 2-0'd him) and has done well in some other LANs, and if he relied on maphacking then that would be sort of hard to do.


Well (and this is, again, purely hypothetical), the fact that he has performed somewhat decently at several LANs would not mean that he doesn't hack. Any sort-of skilled high masters player with confidence can take games off a pro, even if you can't do it consistently or without having a crutch to lean on in practice or online tournaments that makes you intimidating. And while his performances were decent, they weren't really 70% winrate good; he's always played his best at home.

1.are you insane? youre comparing nerchio to high masters?
2.its like that for most of the people, nerves exist, sorry to disappoint you, but progamers arent robots.
Chun-li since ST
Artok
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands2219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 23:16:16
June 04 2012 23:15 GMT
#666
double post, internet going wild
Chun-li since ST
legaton
Profile Joined December 2010
France1763 Posts
June 04 2012 23:16 GMT
#667
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).

User was warned for this post
No GG, No Skill - Jaedong <3
JJH777
Profile Joined January 2011
United States4414 Posts
June 04 2012 23:16 GMT
#668
On June 05 2012 08:13 tsuxiit wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 08:01 Hyperiok wrote:
On June 05 2012 07:55 tsuxiit wrote:


I know many other top GM players that maphack as well. Most of us are friends. The most successful of these that I know is a respected pro-gamer, on a team, that has won over €15,000 in prize money. Almost all of that money was won from online tournaments. Surprise, surprise, this guy has one of the most feared ZvZ in the world. To be honest, I am not sure how this person has remain uncaught. He refrains from attending LAN tournaments even though by now, he definitely has the resources to attend them. I think I've only seen him once in a LAN tournament.


All of evidence is incredibly circumstantial, like the fact that Nerchio has a 70% winrate in ZvZ on TLPD. But if you consider the idea that both these players are, in fact, using these programs to cheat and exploit, the story gets incredibly interesting.


I don't think Nerchio maphacks, he had some very close ZvZs against Hyun at Dreamhack (I believe he lost 1-2 but very nearly 2-0'd him) and has done well in some other LANs, and if he relied on maphacking then that would be sort of hard to do.


Well (and this is, again, purely hypothetical), the fact that he has performed somewhat decently at several LANs would not mean that he doesn't hack. Any sort-of skilled high masters player with confidence can take games off a pro, even if you can't do it consistently or without having a crutch to lean on in practice or online tournaments that makes you intimidating. And while his performances were decent, they weren't really 70% winrate good; he's always played his best at home.


I also remember that when IdrA forfeited against him in that random daily tournament he justified it by saying that he doesn't like playing Nerchio online.
Riff-
Profile Joined August 2011
Canada39 Posts
June 04 2012 23:16 GMT
#669
his engagements on the chanman episode were pretty clairvoyant. not proof or even evidence. just opinion
-2 cents
MayorITC
Profile Blog Joined October 2008
Korea (South)798 Posts
June 04 2012 23:16 GMT
#670
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.

If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.

De ja vu.
MuseMike
Profile Joined March 2011
United States1339 Posts
June 04 2012 23:17 GMT
#671
On June 05 2012 08:14 Gladiator333 wrote:
I remember in SC2gears you could see if a guy that was hacking if he's blink micro was legit or not. Isn't it possible to see the same sort of here but with camera lock perhaps or so? Probably not but cool to play around if there's anyway to be able to detect it there from. I'm too tired to do it myself.

If Camera Lock has a default keybind and sc2gears can see all keybind presses this could be a possible way to see. That is assuming he did not change the default camera lock bind.
Mohdoo
Profile Joined August 2007
United States15723 Posts
June 04 2012 23:17 GMT
#672
On June 05 2012 08:13 yeastiality wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 05 2012 08:10 RaGe wrote:
On June 05 2012 07:18 Spades wrote:
On June 05 2012 07:14 Crowned wrote:
I was watching Spades stream last 2 days and obviously he wouldn't hack while streaming, but you never know what people will do when money is on the line.

there was no money on the line, it was just a showmatch for pride.

And another thing, I think its purposely reasonable for people to question players, and to investigate hacking, cheating, and abusing. I just think its pretty stupid, I am instantly labeled a hacker because some 1 post decided to label me one, everyone jumped on the bandwagon, without clear proof or anything.

I don't know if you've hacked in SC2.

I do think you would've had a shit ton more credibility in your defense if it didn't take you two fucking years to admit the two times you got caught in BW. There wasn't a single hacker caught during both the iccup and flag method catches that denied it as long as you did. Actually, you didn't even ever admit it until you decided you wanted to get serious with your SC2 career. Even if you're not currently hacking, you can't really blame the OP for making this thread or people for not really believing your rebuttal.


You sure are bitter about whatever you just posted about. It doesn't prove that he was hacking in the replays provided, though. You are killing esports, no joke~


He didn't say it was proof. He was simply elaborating on the fact that we really have absolutely no reason to take anything Spades said as truth. And he explained why by elaborating how it took *years* for Spades to admit his past hacking, something otherwise unheard of. And even that seemed only to help him transition into SC2.
Apollo_Shards
Profile Joined February 2011
1210 Posts
June 04 2012 23:18 GMT
#673
On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.

If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.

De ja vu.


To be fair a lot of the evidence I think has been inaccurate or not substantial enough to prove anything.
Jaedong, sOs, avilo, MaSa, Oprah
kckkryptonite
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
1126 Posts
June 04 2012 23:18 GMT
#674
This is why being GM alone means nothing, I don't watch online-only tournaments because they have little credibility, and players who only play online aren't *pro*.
RIP avilo, qxc keyboard 2013, RIP Nathanis keyboard 2014
Artok
Profile Joined May 2011
Netherlands2219 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 23:19:15
June 04 2012 23:19 GMT
#675
On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.

If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.

De ja vu.

watch the replays, quite a few of those op arguments are total bullshit.
Chun-li since ST
divito
Profile Blog Joined January 2011
Canada1213 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 23:22:34
June 04 2012 23:19 GMT
#676
Having been a head admin of CEVO (for anyone that may know of it) back when it was popular, going through a demo of a player and trying to ascertain suspicious areas of their play isn't a simple task. There are just some people that play "weird," glance at a TV in the room or talking with someone (explaining pauses, or staring at nothing), and make really strange intuitive moves that completely put them under the microscope.

The problem with threads like these, and the enormous amount of complexity and variability of a game like SC2, is that it gives little definitive areas to conclusively say that one is cheating. There are many ways of completing the same action, whether through bindings, or mini-map, or what have you.

Everyone has a different justification over why they would do something at what point; a lot of the "plays" under scrutiny are done so under the guise of one's own play style, and their bias/experience towards what should/could have been done.

That's to say nothing of this specific instance other than, you have to approach it from the other side. A big problem also arises in cases like this, because as an admin, the opposing team (from CEVO, other leagues) submits notes on why they think someone is cheating; this forces one to look at these instances suspiciously, which negatively impacts what you're viewing.

It will take multiple viewings (and the use of a cheat eventually), and a good understanding of the states of the game and the player's mindset through those multiple viewings, to actually establish whether anything is really suspicious or not.
Skype: divito7
starcraft911
Profile Blog Joined July 2008
Korea (South)1263 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-06-04 23:25:53
June 04 2012 23:20 GMT
#677
On June 05 2012 08:19 divito wrote:
Having been a head admin of CEVO (for anyone that may know of it) back when it was popular, going through a demo of a player and trying to ascertain suspicious areas of their play isn't a simple task. There are just some people that play "weird," glance at a TV in the room, and make really strange intuitive moves that completely put them under the microscope.

The problem with threads like these, and the enormous amount of complexity and variability of a game like SC2, is that it gives little definitive areas to conclusively say that one is cheating. There are many ways of completing the same action, whether through bindings, or mini-map, or what have you.

Everyone has a different justification over why they would do something at what point; a lot of the "plays" under scrutiny are done so under the guise of one's own play style, and their bias/experience towards what should/could have been done.

That's to say nothing of this specific instance other than, you have to approach it from the other side. A big problem also arises in cases like this, because as an admin, the opposing team (from CEVO, other leagues) submits notes on why they think someone is cheating; this forces one to look at these instances suspiciously, which negatively impacts what you're viewing.

It will take multiple viewings (and the use of a cheat eventually), and a good understanding of the states of the game and the player's mindset through those multiple viewings, to actually establish whether anything is really suspicious or not.


I'd like to hear Spade's explanation for how he selected a unit far off his screen that WAS NOT hotkeyed. I understand that you can't prove or disprove someones 'weird' actions, but this action breaks the game mechanics. It's not a question of 'gut feelings' but rather someone using 3rd party software.

I'm guessing that you didn't read the full transcript and then view the replay to compare between the OPs findings and your own interpretation.

Had this just been a simple case of blind countering by spades i.e. not saving scans vs non-cloaked banshees I'd agree 100% with you that that proves nothing. You can't determine if someone is cheating based on them making perfect counters, however, breaking core game mechanics with a pattern that is consistent with known hacking methods is more than just suspicious, it's proof in the purest form.

yeastiality
Profile Joined April 2011
Canada374 Posts
June 04 2012 23:20 GMT
#678
On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.


When someone's career is on the line, you have to do better than "I think.." and "Couldn't it be..."
The '1 post' thing indicates that either the person never posted on TL before, or was afraid to use their 'real' account because of potential blowback (indicating a lack of conviction). It's a very easy way to see that someone has an intellectually-dishonest agenda (and if you look a bit farther to the OP, constructed mostly of half-truths, that can be confirmed)

There isn't real evidence to criticize, yet. If Catz or Incontrol want to stream some, I'll definitely watch and put 0.0002 cents in their pocket.
mememolly
Profile Joined December 2011
4765 Posts
June 04 2012 23:20 GMT
#679
On June 05 2012 08:18 kckkryptonite wrote:
This is why being GM alone means nothing, I don't watch online-only tournaments because they have little credibility, and players who only play online aren't *pro*.


agreed, online is nothing unless you force the players to stream to a private audience of admins or get them to record fpvod
Naphal
Profile Joined December 2010
Germany2099 Posts
June 04 2012 23:20 GMT
#680
all these hacker topics... i dodge these as good as i can, but i have to say:

Blizzard banwave hwaiting!

not to say spades uses hacks or not, i do not know that.
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