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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
I wish you could make it mandatory for everyone who posts in this thread to watch the replays, so many people just jump on the bandwagon about everything. I watched the replays and I don't understand what the problems are. He went blind Raven? So what? I have seen that build in the GSL, are those players hacking? Oh he moved his army to there where Lucifron was gonna be. Give me a break. This witchunt seems to be clutching at straws. I have seen it said that Spades' answers have been vague well so has every single point brought up about the hacking.
So much nonsense in this thread and people just coming in(a couple of pros included) to just talk shit about Spades without even watching the replays, I mean seriously what the hell?
People need to watch the replays for themselves, weigh all the data in them, look at everything and make up THEIR OWN damn mind.
Personally I have watched all of the replays from Spades perspective and Lucifron's perspective at varying speeds and paid particular attention to the times stamped in the original post. I don't see anything suspicious and a lot of the actions that have been deemed "suspicious" have perfectly logical explanations. I'm not going to list every single one and give my thoughts on each(although i was going to.) This is getting taken way out of hand by some people and a lot here are taking the words of others at first glance and not doing any research or thinking for themselves.
Like I said Spades is not a hacker in my eyes and people need to chill the hell out.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
LoL, yes it's the American pro mindset at it again. Thats why they accused an American player of hacking. LoL thats a good one.
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Spades, admitting to hacking wouldn't necessarily mean the end of your career. If you haven't done it at any LAN events, and just move forward and play legit with an apology, you have enough fans to keep going.
For your sake, I hope these claims are true, and you own up to it. Unless we get definitive proof either way, it's always best to own up and move on!
If you weren't hacking, I am sorry that this 'event' occurred. I hope you [and the community] can move past it.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.
If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.
De ja vu.
Camera lock in which time he does like 10-15 actions on the screen. Jesus, someone could mistake me for spades fanboy with how much all these silly accusations annoy me. I mean after watching all those replays on 2 points, I saw something unorthodox, Valley where he didn't send rines to check if Luci's army was coming there and the scan on Shakuras, which if Spades was cheating wouldn't really make much sense to send the scv to the other spot(since I mean I'd say a better reasoning for the scan on that base was since he could see where the first rine was retreating to and what direction the 2nd rine came from). Everything else, I could see myself doing quite easily.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.
If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.
De ja vu.
Someone posted something about if you cameralock you can't perform other actions. Show me an instance where I am "looking at my production for 10 seconds" without performing an action. This never even close to happens.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
If you've been around long enough in this scene, you would know that a pro found hacking is not uncommon at all. Going by history, when there has been evidence found indicating foul play has been happening, 99% of the time the player indeed was hacking. 90% of the time, the player also denies it until eventually there is solid, irrefutable proof. This time will be no different.
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On June 05 2012 08:15 Artok wrote:
double post, internet going wild
Could you please stop spamming this thread? You're literally writing pointless one liners on every fucking page.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
Can i tell you to shut up? Is that allowed when replying to someone who posts something as stupid as this?
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
Or the fact that those guys actually play and interact with eachother on a daily basis.
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I don't know how to detect hacks, etc. but I had a chance to warm spades up right before his show match.
I dunno if this rep will help or not but I wanted to post this replay for further analysis
http://drop.sc/191525
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On June 05 2012 08:19 divito wrote:
Having been a head admin of CEVO (for anyone that may know of it) back when it was popular, going through a demo of a player and trying to ascertain suspicious areas of their play isn't a simple task. There are just some people that play "weird," glance at a TV in the room, and make really strange intuitive moves that completely put them under the microscope.
The problem with threads like these, and the enormous amount of complexity and variability of a game like SC2, is that it gives little definitive areas to conclusively say that one is cheating. There are many ways of completing the same action, whether through bindings, or mini-map, or what have you.
Everyone has a different justification over why they would do something at what point; a lot of the "plays" under scrutiny are done so under the guise of one's own play style, and their bias/experience towards what should/could have been done.
That's to say nothing of this specific instance other than, you have to approach it from the other side. A big problem also arises in cases like this, because as an admin, the opposing team (from CEVO, other leagues) submits notes on why they think someone is cheating; this forces one to look at these instances suspiciously, which negatively impacts what you're viewing.
It will take multiple viewings (and the use of a cheat eventually), and a good understanding of the states of the game and the player's mindset through those multiple viewings, to actually establish whether anything is really suspicious or not.
it seems that most of the people in this thread imagine that every player plays the same and is some kind of mechanical being that should show exactly the same results in lan events as he does in home. And when players play the game there is no chance of anything disturbing him for 9 seconds, since they are playing in tightly closed space that is unreachable by outer world.
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duh?
User was temp banned for this post.
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On June 05 2012 08:21 Riff- wrote:
I hope you [and the community] can move past it.
The community doesn't move past things because it's immature. Look at how many people in the thread are giving a carebears countdown over what he did in BW (and doing the same to TT1 when he posted). When Idra posted, nobody mentioned how notorious he was for BMing broodwar players (possibly a lapse into proper judgement?)
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
Catz isn't American.
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On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote:
I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style).
I think it's more the probability that they have played with him before or know him more than the EU scene.
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On June 05 2012 08:20 Wolfe87 wrote:
I wish you could make it mandatory for everyone who posts in this thread to watch the replays, so many people just jump on the bandwagon about everything. I watched the replays and I don't understand what the problems are. He went blind Raven? So what? I have seen that build in the GSL, are those players hacking? Oh he moved his army to there where Lucifron was gonna be. Give me a break. This witchunt seems to be clutching at straws. I have seen it said that Spades' answers have been vague well so has every single point brought up about the hacking.
So much nonsense in this thread and people just coming in(a couple of pros included) to just talk shit about Spades without even watching the replays, I mean seriously what the hell?
People need to watch the replays for themselves, weigh all the data in them, look at everything and make up THEIR OWN damn mind.
Personally I have watched all of the replays from Spades perspective and Lucifron's perspective at varying speeds and paid particular attention to the times stamped in the original post. I don't see anything suspicious and a lot of the actions that have been deemed "suspicious" have perfectly logical explanations. I'm not going to list every single one and give my thoughts on each(although i was going to.) This is getting taken way out of hand by some people and a lot here are taking the words of others at first glance and not doing any research or thinking for themselves.
Like I said Spades is not a hacker in my eyes and people need to chill the hell out.
I watched the replays. I don't see how you can say he isn't hacking after seeing it. Those kind of blind unsafe movements in a 'high level' TvT just screams hacks. Then you have the 10 second camera locks at base which are just unheard of at any type of high level play. Then during those locks at base where he's 'macroing' he isn't really doing anything, for example Antiga 9:02 he sits 4 SCVs in gas and let's himself supply blocked (while 'concentrating' at home).
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On June 05 2012 08:22 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:16 MayorITC wrote:
Some of these counter-arguments are absurd. The player's post count doesn't matter. The OP provides a lot of evidence for his argument. If you're going to make make a rebuttal, criticize the evidence, not his post count.
If I remember right, Spades never admitted to hacking in SC1 either nor was there 100% conclusive proof, but there was enough proof to believe he hacked without reasonable doubt. In SC1, there were numerous replays of him indicating that he did not use a single hotkey at all (a common symptom from using the Oblivion hack), which is unheard of from a player at his level. Here you have a similar incident of Spades in a 10+ second camera lock, which is also unheard of from a player at his level.
De ja vu. Someone posted something about if you cameralock you can't perform other actions. Show me an instance where I am "looking at my production for 10 seconds" without performing an action. This never even close to happens.
That post was wrong.
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On June 05 2012 08:21 Riff- wrote:
Spades, admitting to hacking wouldn't necessarily mean the end of your career. If you haven't done it at any LAN events, and just move forward and play legit with an apology, you have enough fans to keep going.
For your sake, I hope these claims are true, and you own up to it. Unless we get definitive proof either way, it's always best to own up and move on!
If you weren't hacking, I am sorry that this 'event' occurred. I hope you [and the community] can move past it.
wat. you realize he got caught hacking once already? if this is true his career is absolutely dead.
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On June 05 2012 08:20 mememolly wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:18 kckkryptonite wrote:
This is why being GM alone means nothing, I don't watch online-only tournaments because they have little credibility, and players who only play online aren't *pro*. agreed, online is nothing unless you force the players to stream to a private audience of admins or get them to record fpvod
You're just being sensationalist. You have no objective reason to discard the results of online tournaments or imply that a majority or a significant number of players cheat in them, especially high profile online tournaments (not talking about some random GM player in Playhem Daily).
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Better question: why does he have to stare at other places on the map for 10+ seconds at a time? If it is a camera lock and he is you know using a map hack, wouldn't he just have to glance around the map quickly. He has high apm and doesn't need to stare at things to know exactly whats going on. A quick glimpse in his base would be more than enough to put him leagues ahead of his opponent.
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EPT
