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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
So I have two things to say.
One. This thread is exactly why there needs to be some sort of a player association / private forum, where people can discuss these things internally before a conclusion is reached that can be presented to the public. Whether this proves to be true or not, I think it should be obvious by now that the threads where a random community member attempts to discredit a relatively high profile individual can spin out of control very quickly, very easily.
Two. I think that all accusations should be based around "technical" giveaways, rather than an analysis of a player's strategic choices. You cannot measure game sense, there is a ton of uncharacteristic mistakes, luck and blind guessing involved in making decisions, and all the evidence based on this will be vague and inconclusive no matter how good the player is, or how good and knowledgeable the players who analyze his replays for cheating are.
Maybe it appears to be an obvious sign towards cheating this time, but consider the potential future cases where any player with a slightly higher number of "fortunate" decisions and lucky coin flips in a series can be a potential suspect and subject to threads like these. After all, Spades did make a ton of mistakes in the series, and ultimately lost, his game sense was hardly flawless (or anywhere near).
The camera lock thing seems like the only solid evidence to run with. Spades does stream, so comparing his camera movement and actions in the replays and on stream VODs should be enough to make a hard case for cheating (or prove his innocence).
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On June 05 2012 08:02 ROOTCatZ wrote:ahh fuck  I just watched the replays and analyzed them carefully, I like Spades he's cool dood, but im now pretty convinced he hacks for multiple reasons, there are some really really obvious proof here. he did hack before in bw and denied it so his word can't simply be enough for me this time around. T_T son, im dissapoint.
Catz has spoken! It is truth! Lol just kidding. But this definitely does not look good for Spades.
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On June 05 2012 08:02 ROOTCatZ wrote:ahh fuck I just watched the replays and analyzed them carefully, I like Spades he's cool dood, but im now pretty convinced he hacks for multiple reasons, there are some really really obvious proof here. he did hack before in bw and denied it so his word can't simply be enough for me this time around. T_T son, im dissapoint.
As there are other pros of different opinions it would be helpful if you would be VERY detailed about your concerns so you guys can have a solid discussion. If you don´t already do that in a privat chat or something.
Spades shouldn´t be crying about his career. If the conclusion is that he did nothing wrong people actually get to know him. No team would kick a player just because SOMEONE said he would be cheating. This would actually be just publicity for him.
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On June 05 2012 06:50 KonohaFlash wrote:
Amazing how everyone is slurping up what the OP has to say. He has 1 post.
Post count doesn't matter; the content of the post is what matters. It's obviously a smurf account of someone who has some reason to do this.
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is it possible to send the rep to blizzard so the expert can check on it
i mean if he cheated his key get banned for sure
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has anyone compared a confirmed hack replay with spade's to notice any common hack tics that may appear in both?
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On June 05 2012 08:06 PolishxThunder wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:48 Sadform wrote:On June 05 2012 07:47 14fighter wrote:
soooo can this be locked and deleted possibly now before we hurt this guy for no reason anymore? Agreed. Unless there is 100% solid evidence, there is no point in discussing it. What you just said makes absolutely zero sense, because something hasn't been definitely confirmed people can't discuss it? lmao?
The things being discussed can only be taken as circumstancial evidence (we can't see the data stream on Spades' computer, or watch his monitor in real life, etc). All we can do is go back and forth about the things we see in the replays, our subjective views of them, and whether each is right or wrong. It's very prone to appeals to authority (incontrol/idra/catz saying that he seems suspicious with zero real evidence) and lots of other intellectually dishonest stuff.
In short, not a good topic for a thread. When you have real evidence of something like this, maybe consider starting a witch hunt or whatever this is. Otherwise, get back on the ladder and get out of whatever wood league you're in!
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On June 05 2012 08:07 Achilles17 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 08:02 ROOTCatZ wrote:ahh fuck I just watched the replays and analyzed them carefully, I like Spades he's cool dood, but im now pretty convinced he hacks for multiple reasons, there are some really really obvious proof here. he did hack before in bw and denied it so his word can't simply be enough for me this time around. T_T son, im dissapoint. Catz has spoken! It is truth! Lol just kidding. But this definitely does not look good for Spades.
really really obvious proof without specifying anything, totally doesnt look good.
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On June 05 2012 07:39 Fear219 wrote:
The pure and simple fact is the only sure fire way of knowing if someone is hacking is:
1. Blizzards Anti-Cheat (Warden) bans the player for hacking
2. If they were dumb enough to try and hack at a lan.
Actually the warden just reports them to blizzard and after there are 4-5k reported hackers blizzard bans them in a batch thats how they operate.
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Yea, Spades is a former hacker... so I'm not at all surprised that he's started again. Old habits die hard...
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Belgium9950 Posts
On June 05 2012 07:18 Spades wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:14 Crowned wrote:
I was watching Spades stream last 2 days and obviously he wouldn't hack while streaming, but you never know what people will do when money is on the line. there was no money on the line, it was just a showmatch for pride. And another thing, I think its purposely reasonable for people to question players, and to investigate hacking, cheating, and abusing. I just think its pretty stupid, I am instantly labeled a hacker because some 1 post decided to label me one, everyone jumped on the bandwagon, without clear proof or anything.
I don't know if you've hacked in SC2.
I do think you would've had a shit ton more credibility in your defense if it didn't take you two fucking years to admit the two times you got caught in BW. There wasn't a single hacker caught during both the iccup and flag method catches that denied it as long as you did. Actually, you didn't even ever admit it until you decided you wanted to get serious with your SC2 career. Even if you're not currently hacking, you can't really blame the OP for making this thread or people for not really believing your rebuttal.
edit: It doesn't really help that you're known as a typical X17 kid either, even confirming your BM behavior in some SC2 scandals as well. Basically, you've been doing it all wrong the entire time.. maybe that includes hacking in SC2, maybe it doesn't. Just saying, if this was a trial, the DA would have a shitload of character witnesses testifying to your retarded behavior..
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On June 05 2012 08:02 ROOTCatZ wrote:ahh fuck I just watched the replays and analyzed them carefully, I like Spades he's cool dood, but im now pretty convinced he hacks for multiple reasons, there are some really really obvious proof here. he did hack before in bw and denied it so his word can't simply be enough for me this time around. T_T son, im dissapoint.
PLEASE STREAM ANALYSIS
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On June 05 2012 08:10 teamsolid wrote:
Yea, Spades is a former hacker... so I'm not at all surprised that he's started again. Old habits die hard...
now thats some sick insight you are providing here, i bet tt1 is hacking right now while laughing like a madman.
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Havent read through all random replys, but read most of the point about suspicious actions throughout the game. But anyway, has there actually been any good explanation of why the camera blocks keep occuring over and over, if it wasnt for the reason posted in OP?
If there is no good explanation, and theres no similar camera blocks for Lucifron, isnt it quite obvious?
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On June 05 2012 08:11 Kreb wrote:
Havent read through all random replys, but read most of the point about suspicious actions throughout the game. But anyway, has there actually been any good explanation of why the camera blocks keep occuring over and over, if it wasnt for the reason posted in OP?
If there is no good explanation, and theres no similar camera blocks for Lucifron, isnt it quite obvious?
He said he was having mouse issues, however if thats an excuse or not I'm not sure..
ps : Catz please stream analysis
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On June 05 2012 08:09 perser84 wrote:
is it possible to send the rep to blizzard so the expert can check on it
i mean if he cheated his key get banned for sure
Blizzard by the by does not check replays. If Warden catches you, they will ban you at the end of the season (or earlier if their userbase complains loudly enough). True story.
On June 05 2012 08:09 mememolly wrote:
has anyone compared a confirmed hack replay with spade's to notice any common hack tics that may appear in both?
lol.. please watch the replays yourself instead.
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On June 05 2012 08:01 Hyperiok wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:55 tsuxiit wrote:I know many other top GM players that maphack as well. Most of us are friends. The most successful of these that I know is a respected pro-gamer, on a team, that has won over €15,000 in prize money. Almost all of that money was won from online tournaments. Surprise, surprise, this guy has one of the most feared ZvZ in the world. To be honest, I am not sure how this person has remain uncaught. He refrains from attending LAN tournaments even though by now, he definitely has the resources to attend them. I think I've only seen him once in a LAN tournament. All of evidence is incredibly circumstantial, like the fact that Nerchio has a 70% winrate in ZvZ on TLPD. But if you consider the idea that both these players are, in fact, using these programs to cheat and exploit, the story gets incredibly interesting. I don't think Nerchio maphacks, he had some very close ZvZs against Hyun at Dreamhack (I believe he lost 1-2 but very nearly 2-0'd him) and has done well in some other LANs, and if he relied on maphacking then that would be sort of hard to do.
Well (and this is, again, purely hypothetical), the fact that he has performed somewhat decently at several LANs would not mean that he doesn't hack. Any sort-of skilled high masters player with confidence can take games off a pro, even if you can't do it consistently or without having a crutch to lean on in practice or online tournaments that makes you intimidating. And while his performances were decent, they weren't really 70% winrate good; he's always played his best at home.
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As spades said Lucifron does the same builds on each map as he did w/ Thorzain. I'll take his word over any sort of paranoia from recent hackers being caught. Everything he said actually makes perfect sense rather then the typical hacker lingo of making it appear that they don't. Alot of this can also be placed in metagaming which is something that frequently happens especially at that level of play. If someone does the same things over and over again it becomes increasingly easy to metagame them. Im no fan of spades though Im also against the innocent being persecuted for the paranoia of others due to evens others have caused.
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We're in a weird predicament currently with SC2. There is no full proof definitive way to prove someone is truly hacking unless Blizzard's Warden program discovers it to be the case (but that information is never revealed publicly; one can easily buy a new SC2 account and no one would know they were banned by Blizz).
The only thing we as a community are left to do is examine replays very closely and make a determination based on various events in the replay. There are those events that are so obvious in a game where you can state with reasonable certainty that Player X is maphacking(making a beeline direct attack-move to a hidden proxy pylon that was never scouted on the other side of the map, etc.).
On the contrary, a competent individual, especially one who possesses a degree of skill in the game, can cleverly utilize a maphack program to make events look less suspicious, which results in less reasonable certainty that they are in fact hacking.
However the fact remains: there is no clear definitive proof of hacking but there is ALSO no clear definitive way of knowing if someone is hacking other than the Blizz Warden program. The only thing we can say is that there are events that occur in a game that are so "suspicious beyond belief" that you can call Player X a maphacker with reasonable certainty (see above proxy pylon example). But that takes an incompetent person who's never used a maphack to get caught like that.
I don't think that's the case here, and I think it's unfair to Spades and anyone who is accused of hacking when there is no event in the replays that scream maphacking. I've only seen slightly suspicious events in the replays, but IMO that's not enough to label someone a maphacker.
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On June 05 2012 08:10 RaGe wrote:Show nested quote +On June 05 2012 07:18 Spades wrote:On June 05 2012 07:14 Crowned wrote:
I was watching Spades stream last 2 days and obviously he wouldn't hack while streaming, but you never know what people will do when money is on the line. there was no money on the line, it was just a showmatch for pride. And another thing, I think its purposely reasonable for people to question players, and to investigate hacking, cheating, and abusing. I just think its pretty stupid, I am instantly labeled a hacker because some 1 post decided to label me one, everyone jumped on the bandwagon, without clear proof or anything. I don't know if you've hacked in SC2. I do think you would've had a shit ton more credibility in your defense if it didn't take you two fucking years to admit the two times you got caught in BW. There wasn't a single hacker caught during both the iccup and flag method catches that denied it as long as you did. Actually, you didn't even ever admit it until you decided you wanted to get serious with your SC2 career. Even if you're not currently hacking, you can't really blame the OP for making this thread or people for not really believing your rebuttal.
You sure are bitter about whatever you just posted about. It doesn't prove that he was hacking in the replays provided, though. You are killing esports, no joke~
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EPT
