EPTeither he has worse camera control than me (I'm EU platinum scrub), or he's using the maphack described in OP.
sad.
[?] Spades hacking? - Page 37
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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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phanto
Sweden708 Posts
either he has worse camera control than me (I'm EU platinum scrub), or he's using the maphack described in OP. sad. | ||
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zefreak
United States2731 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:29 divito wrote: The only really interesting tidbit from all of this is this notion that he selected an SCV outside his vision without a hotkey. Outside of that, this "camera lock" thing is unconvincing; simply because, for all the times I've gotten out of my chair quickly, taken a drink or a bite of something, it's easy to have your camera just sit there. I'm sure there are many people that have the same thing happen; sure, maybe not during a showmatch, but we can't say for sure how seriously he was taking it. For someone like Spades, i'm sure this showmatch was important enough to not take 10 seconds to scratch his ass or eat a banana. This isn't Stephano who could care less about a showmatch because he has 5 other tournaments that week. | ||
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c78331
Greece64 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:13 tsuxiit wrote: Well (and this is, again, purely hypothetical), the fact that he has performed somewhat decently at several LANs would not mean that he doesn't hack. Any sort-of skilled high masters player with confidence can take games off a pro, even if you can't do it consistently or without having a crutch to lean on in practice or online tournaments that makes you intimidating. And while his performances were decent, they weren't really 70% winrate good; he's always played his best at home. Out of curiousity i calculated his winrate from 3 lan events (dreamhack winter 2011 ,hsc4 and the last dremhack) and he had 69.6%... | ||
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hifriend
China7935 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:28 caradoc wrote: Who would design a program that stops you from doing any actions while locking your camera? Not only is it unnecessary from a programming perspective, it would make it ridiculously easy to detect as well. I think the fact that this isn't already well known is evidence enough that the claim is false given how much scrutiny there is on a semi-regular basis of hacker and supposed-hacker replays. For all maphacks that I'm aware of, the camera lock feature also locks selections. The selections simply don't get picked up in the replay. If you look at the instances of supposed camera lock in his replays, you can see him flipping between production facilities, and unless he has some private hack that I am unaware off, then those selections couldn't be seen in the replay if he was in camera lock mode. edit: obviously that's not to say that you can't select stuff, just that if you do it won't get picked up on the replay just like minimap position. If you attempt to build something, or move your units, you'll instantly snap out of camera lock. edit2: repeating myself, but + Show Spoiler + On June 05 2012 07:50 hifriend wrote: From the description of the most commonly used maphack (always has been). So essentially, when his camera is supposedly 'locked' any and all selections will NOT be registered and present in the replay file. If Spades was in camera lock mode, the selections wouldn't have been picked up. There are other hacks (and private aka secure ones) out there of course, and I don't know if they function differently.. | ||
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Artok
Netherlands2219 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:31 Holytornados wrote: There is a possibility that he was using a different program, no? I don't have an opinion really yet, but I'm leaning towards the fishy side. 10 second camera locks and random army movements are a lot to take in for a GM level terran. actually happens quite a lot and causes some losses. | ||
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teamsolid
Canada3668 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:29 legaton wrote: Lucifron was accused of hacking just some weeks ago? There's was rumors about Stephano hacking in the french scene for months, until he rolled over all the french players on several LANs on a row. Trolls love to say that Nerchio hacks... And for some old story, as far as i remember, MistrZZZ was never proven a hacker even if he was accused of hacking like monthly  Not talking about "rumors", but real evidence such as the OP. The Lucifron accusation was retarded and not even comparable to this one. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:29 sekalf wrote: Maybe he is scratching his ass or something? Or eating a banana? Having the screen still for 10 seconds prove absolutely nothing. Spades said earlier in his response that he was performing other actions while the screen was locked (macroing). If he were at the computer why would he randomly decide to let the screen sit still? | ||
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Wolfe87
United Kingdom22 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:24 oxxo wrote: I watched the replays. I don't see how you can say he isn't hacking after seeing it. Those kind of blind unsafe movements in a 'high level' TvT just screams hacks. Then you have the 10 second camera locks at base which are just unheard of at any type of high level play. Then during those locks at base where he's 'macroing' he isn't really doing anything, for example Antiga 9:02 he sits 4 SCVs in gas and let's himself supply blocked (while 'concentrating' at home). Well we a have a difference of opinion which is completely fine by me. People get supply blocked and put extra in gas all the time. I have seen a tournament game and I honestly can't remember which one or who it was with(which sounds really vague I know and I apologize) where a Zerg rallied their hatchery into a gas. Mistakes happen at all levels even right in front of your face. I don't believe that it "screams" hacks because he makes blind unsafe movements. We all take risks and if we play too safe we can easily lose. You see players make unsafe moves all the time in all match-ups in tournaments on ladder etc. So i don't understand how this can be "screaming hacks." Now the camera locks I have no explanation for apart from speculation like he was thinking about what he was going to do what Lucifron would be doing, etc but the thing is that using this as evidence of hacking is purely speculative also. | ||
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legaton
France1763 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:28 TheWorldToCome wrote: Stephano has said the only zerg he doesn't like to play is Nerchio, and that Nerchio plays a "weird style." Come on, I remember that perfectly, and Idra didn't want to play Nerchio because he was 0-4 against him, thinks ZvZ is a "coin-flip" (yet, you can go 0-4, whatever) and he's just a quitter. Stephano doesn't like Nerchio because Nerchio is a try-hard and not specially funny. But i remember once they played like 6 games in a row because Nerchio snipped him (Stephano didn't want to play custom games with him). it went like 3-3. | ||
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Champloo
Germany1850 Posts
But there's really no reason for you to be concerned about your image, Spades. Everyone thought of you as a cheater before this, and everyone will still think of you as a cheater now. | ||
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TommyP
United States6231 Posts
On June 05 2012 07:26 Z.Aether wrote: There are lot of players that do really well online and then play awfull in LAN. Just watch Nerchio he is a beast online but in LANs he is not as good. U cant use his results at MLG cause MLG have really top level players. He recognizes that LucifroN is better than him, so u really expect Spades to do well against koreans and top foreigners? Because LucifroN (at the moment) is only well known in EU Lucifron is well known in NA as well. hes one of the top foreigners. | ||
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starcraft911
Korea (South)1263 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:20 Wolfe87 wrote: I wish you could make it mandatory for everyone who posts in this thread to watch the replays, so many people just jump on the bandwagon about everything. I watched the replays and I don't understand what the problems are. He went blind Raven? So what? I have seen that build in the GSL, are those players hacking? Oh he moved his army to there where Lucifron was gonna be. Give me a break. This witchunt seems to be clutching at straws. I have seen it said that Spades' answers have been vague well so has every single point brought up about the hacking. So much nonsense in this thread and people just coming in(a couple of pros included) to just talk shit about Spades without even watching the replays, I mean seriously what the hell? People need to watch the replays for themselves, weigh all the data in them, look at everything and make up THEIR OWN damn mind. Personally I have watched all of the replays from Spades perspective and Lucifron's perspective at varying speeds and paid particular attention to the times stamped in the original post. I don't see anything suspicious and a lot of the actions that have been deemed "suspicious" have perfectly logical explanations. I'm not going to list every single one and give my thoughts on each(although i was going to.) This is getting taken way out of hand by some people and a lot here are taking the words of others at first glance and not doing any research or thinking for themselves. Like I said Spades is not a hacker in my eyes and people need to chill the hell out. Try this out... I want you to make a game and without hotkeying any of your workers I want you to move your camera to the middle of the screen. Now without moving your camera or using control groups I want you to select a single scv. This is what happened and it's the product of using a camera freeze which is part of the map hack package. The proof has nothing to do with any of the choices that were made in the game. If you look specifically at the mechanics in the sc2 engine and view what's being broken you'll understand. If you're stuck on what units he made to counter what you'll never get it. You seem to think this is a debate in which case your opinion matters, but the debate has ended. Facts are there and if you choose to ignore them then you're a fool. Again, it has nothing to do with what units were made or what timings things happened, or even what was scouted. Attempt my challenge to you and you'll quickly realize that this case is a wrap. | ||
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Holytornados
United States1022 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:33 Artok wrote: actually happens quite a lot and causes some losses. Random army movements that are for almost perfect blind defenses? | ||
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infinitum
United States83 Posts
On June 05 2012 06:06 Spades wrote: I'm not going to read into this because it makes no sense, I think alot of this says i look at there base before scanning or something? Watch vods of my stream, i always look at fog, then scan immediately afterwards. I think this is s tupid people are calling me a hacker to discredit my "close defeat" in a showmatch. Just because my history people find things to discredit me. Pretty pathetic. I could go case by case defending myself, but this is just sad. That is an extremely weak attempt at deflecting the charges by putting up a straw man, knocking it down, and then trying to turn the tables back onto the accusers. This is exactly what he would be saying if he were guilty. So I think he's guilty. | ||
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oxxo
988 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:34 Holytornados wrote: Spades said earlier in his response that he was performing other actions while the screen was locked (macroing). If he were at the computer why would he randomly decide to let the screen sit still? He should explain how in Antiga at 9:11 he sits his screen for almost 10 seconds while 'macroing' and lets 4 SCVs go in gas (while on screen) AND gets supply blocked. | ||
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sekalf
Sweden522 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:34 Holytornados wrote: Spades said earlier in his response that he was performing other actions while the screen was locked (macroing). If he were at the computer why would he randomly decide to let the screen sit still? Because he was using his mouse hand to eat a banana while macroing with the other? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
http://www.gamereplays.org/starcraft2/replays.php?game=33&show=details&id=264521 A few things make it painfully obvious. First off, he's doing an exact mirror build off of zero scouting which is incredibly rare to happen. But that's not where the lulz come. I then end up getting contained, but I decided to purposely "bait" him a couple times and see how he reacts during this contain to verify if he's hacking or not. Every high level TvTer can verify how questionable and suspicious the decisions are from 13:00 min in this game during the contain. First, note the perfect placement of his tanks just outside of the range of my already pre-sieged tanks...could be luck, but suspicious to start. Next, I purposely make a viking flower as if I am going to leap frog tanks to gain vision over his tanks. Spades has zero vikings. 13:23, he looks where my tanks are, send a marine forward, standard to confirm, but he has no scans, and he doesn't seem to be afraid at all of my tanks moving forward at all... 13:30 he gets energy to scan now, that every high level TvT would save if they want to keep this contain up, otherwise they may just retreat without vikings for vision. 13:34 HE MULES, still not saving scans...leaving every tank sieged still, while knowing that I have the viking advantage for vision, notice my tanks have not moved an inch and he is not worrying about his tanks at all even though he knows he has no way to get vision...WTF? 13:41 This is where my detective work comes in. I make a viking flower pretending that i am about to leap frog my tanks forward. But I leave all my tanks purposely sieged in the same spot. He obviously is looking through the fog of war and sees that I have not moved them, every good player here throws up a scan, but he knows they are in the same exact position as before, so he does not move his tanks away, and he used the mule. He does walk a marine forward though. 13:50 He has a scan available now. 14:09 Another marine moves forward 14:30 Notice this is the first time that I unsiege any tanks near the contain, and what I plan next is to purposely feint a leapfrog forward and then insta-move back to see if he insta-scans. Keep in mind, every single instance before this that I have viking flowered as if leapfrogging forward, he has never reacted at all, no scan. 14:36 I make the final "bait" move here and I purposely do not viking flower to see how he reacts. The instant I move the tanks forward he insta-moves his screen to that location, insta-scans, and I did not siege because, like I said, I was already suspicious at that point and was curious how he would react. Incredibly suspicious imo...some would say incredibly obvious as well. I was streaming at the time, and even more curious was spades was immediately on my stream out of no where to immediately defend himself...-_- | ||
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BeholdOblivion
United States72 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:36 infinitum wrote: That is an extremely weak attempt at deflecting the charges by putting up a straw man, knocking it down, and then trying to turn the tables back onto the accusers. This is exactly what he would be saying if he were guilty. So I think he's guilty. This isn't a game of mafia...I'm not leaning either way but this post just stood out as incredibly stupid to me. "He's guilty, I'm the Inspector, lolol" | ||
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Denzil
United Kingdom4193 Posts
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DarkPlasmaBall
United States44163 Posts
On June 05 2012 08:16 legaton wrote: I just noted that all the pros that are accusing Spades or offering dubious evidence are americans (Illusion, Incontrol, Idra, Catz... well, there's the exception of TT1) and that the only pro that defends him is Nerchio. I wonder if it has something to do with the american "pro"mindset: thinking too good about themselves, therefore, eager to believe any accusation of hacking; and probably spending too much time on forums and chats and loving to create/comment drama (SOTG style). And Lucifron isn't American either, so how does the idea of "Spades couldn't have done this well against Lucifron on his own; it must have been hacks" come off as an American thing? I can't believe you're blaming America for hacking and hackusations. The compiled lists of suspicious activity are rather interesting, although I wouldn't be able to compile them on my own (I'm not a pro-gamer or a Terran player). Spades being so dismissive of everything except for a few things (e.g. "Thorzain games that's that") is a bit weird too. | ||
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