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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here.08:47 KST - Summary:Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) |
On June 07 2012 00:27 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 00:25 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 06 2012 15:57 canikizu wrote:On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. Yep. I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. People keep saying that he hacked, because what's the chance that the tank can siege up right when the marines walk in.However, people don't actually think that what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines up that cliff, or what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines waiting up that ramp. If you think about it that way, you'll see that there're very slim chance that Lucifon doesn't have units up that clip AND doesn't have units ready to run down the ramp. Sieging there seems to be a good, normal decision to me. It's basic and simple knowledge of positioning. So is siege tank positioning. We always see GSL players put the siege tanks in that one place over and over again. Throughout practicing, players gradually optimize about their positioning, especially tank positioning. Yes, he sieged right when the units move in, but we can't exclude the fact that his siege positioning at that time was the most optimized one at that moment (can shoot up cliff, can shoot ramp, far enough to not get hit by bio) So as I said, I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. All of that is actually pretty irrelevant. Spades included a viking in this push. The entire point of the viking for this push is to provide high ground vision, which it was just out of range to do. Technically, everything should have gone exactly as it did, IF that viking was doing its job. But he actually couldn't see the high ground, and still reacts to the approaching marines. Ideally he would have resieged closer to the base than he did. Then those marines that he couldn't see but should have the viking spotting for(but didn't) approached and he resieged. It's very fishy. I don't understand why people keep arguing about those details. He doesn't look at fog of war a single time in the series, ffs, how is that not enough of a proof for everyone in its right mind?
If you want to know the answer to this question, you have been warned. You may lose your faith in humanity.
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On June 07 2012 00:27 SolidMustard wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 00:25 Fyrewolf wrote:On June 06 2012 15:57 canikizu wrote:On June 06 2012 15:42 dvorakftw wrote:On June 06 2012 13:55 StarStrider wrote:
You make some very very good points. But the key thing I don't understand is why he suddenly resieged in the position he did in Exhibit C above the red star . He wasn't in range of the ramp by resieging there. He wasn't in range of anything. He was still in "natural sieging position", just a little bit forward. The small .5 inch movement didn't help him gain position at all: The 'eventual siege location' in Exhibit D is where he wanted to get. Exhibit F. A minute earlier when theognis' second CC is destroyed. + Show Spoiler +Notice the marines are just at the edge of the back tank's cover. theognis could attack those marines without being hit by the tanks. If someone had their entire army and every SCV ready at the ramp it is possible the marines could be killed allowing the tanks to then be destroyed my units moving inside siege range. This is not to say theognis could have done it in this exact case (though maybe) but potentially in a game situation such as this. So the marines retreat to the tanks ASAP. Now the comparison, Exhibit G. + Show Spoiler +Note at 9:50 Spades does not have a good look at the ridge and that Tank 2's position is just a little bit back and above the spot where he leaves Tank 3 sieged at 10:10 while leaping the other two forward. Here's what could happen if he leaves Tank 2 siege and moves other tanks around. Exhibit H Picture of me vs myself in a custom game with some help from MSPaint: + Show Spoiler +The tanks move in range of the ledge where we must remember he lost a tank just a few minutes earlier. Look again at 10:10 in Exhibit G. With Tank 3 now in a position a bit forward and lower than where Tank 2 was, a good view of the ledge accomplished by the 'suspicious' pan down, and the viking in place, he can unsiege the two other tanks and move them to the ramp. This WAS NOT POSSIBLE with the original tank positions. If Tank 1 and Tank 3 could be unsieged and easily moved between the rocks and Tank 2, then the half inch creep is very suspicious. Since Tank 2 isn't in ideal position already, the act of unsieging and repositioning a few hexes over actually isn't that odd. With Tank 3 replacing and improving Tank 2's original position he can then do the proper leap toward the ramp which was the original goal. Yep. I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. People keep saying that he hacked, because what's the chance that the tank can siege up right when the marines walk in.However, people don't actually think that what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines up that cliff, or what is the chance that Lucifon DOESN'T have marines waiting up that ramp. If you think about it that way, you'll see that there're very slim chance that Lucifon doesn't have units up that clip AND doesn't have units ready to run down the ramp. Sieging there seems to be a good, normal decision to me. It's basic and simple knowledge of positioning. So is siege tank positioning. We always see GSL players put the siege tanks in that one place over and over again. Throughout practicing, players gradually optimize about their positioning, especially tank positioning. Yes, he sieged right when the units move in, but we can't exclude the fact that his siege positioning at that time was the most optimized one at that moment (can shoot up cliff, can shoot ramp, far enough to not get hit by bio) So as I said, I don't know if he hacked or not, but I'm not surprised if he didn't hack at this moment. All of that is actually pretty irrelevant. Spades included a viking in this push. The entire point of the viking for this push is to provide high ground vision, which it was just out of range to do. Technically, everything should have gone exactly as it did, IF that viking was doing its job. But he actually couldn't see the high ground, and still reacts to the approaching marines. Ideally he would have resieged closer to the base than he did. Then those marines that he couldn't see but should have the viking spotting for(but didn't) approached and he resieged. It's very fishy. I don't understand why people keep arguing about those details. He doesn't look at fog of war a single time in the series, ffs, how is that not enough of a proof for everyone in its right mind?
Since everyone has ignored it, I was just pointing out the fishiness of having a viking that he doesn't use, yet reacting as if he was using it to spot before it was in position to. I think the FoW looking is one of the more serious issues as well. The Fow is actually very similar to how he was caught last time. Not clicking units ever; not looking into the FoW ever. Both are lack of normal activity that every single player does.
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DamNNnnn
User was warned for this post
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hacking is never good and wonder what made OP decided to go so deep on digging Spade's games lol
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The scary thing is that the only reason people believe that zach or whatever (the maphacker that blizz invited) is a hacker is because he was stupid enough to use the auto-blink feature. Many of his shadow-boxing nonsense looks suspiciously similar to Spades. People would have defended him as just 'being lucky, playing bad, you only see what you want to see' if it weren't for the smoking gun of the auto-blink. And what about people who are smart enough to avoid that?
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All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
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On June 06 2012 06:50 crxer wrote:Show nested quote +On June 06 2012 06:36 Thallis wrote:On June 06 2012 06:33 crxer wrote:It'd be nice if you specifically addressed why you use the minimap so much in these games, but not the ladder pack. Also, your thoughts about some of the top things in the thread would go a lot toward helping us understand.
Specifically, your movements in the middle of Antiga, your complete lack of watching the SCV when you scout with it, and the cross spawn scan on Antiga without scouting. Or never rallying or looking into the fog of war in maphack games but on stream he always looks into fog of war like every other player. the fog of war thing is not conclive proof but when i first started hacking years ago i used to do that, he must not hack much if he is stupid enough to not use the fog of war. He seems to only hack sometimes so i would assume he isnt good enough to hack perfectly i know many gms that arent outed yet that hack but i wil keep that to myself. Blizzard will take care of it once 1.5 comes out which i can't wait for. The hack makes it incapable for you to look into the fog of war in the replay. He is actually looking into the fog of war, but on the replay it shows his cameral frozen on his last position. thats the free version theres a paid version that actually, does actions while you look at the fog of war. If he is using the free version he should do NO other actions while he is staring at his oponents based using camera lock although it takes a second or 2 because you click the middle mouse scroll quick to them and after you release it it takes you back to where you started it should not be more then 3-2 seconds and my apm is low as fuck comapred to him. So yea...
As he said, there seem to be paid versions that perform actions while peeking into the fog of war. I wouldn't be surprised if there are paid versions that select some buildings, drones, move the screen, whatever so that it seems you are macroing.
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On June 07 2012 00:42 dakalro wrote:
All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
You really don't like logically looking at things do you? There's a reason so many people think he's guilty, and it's not that we all have personal grudges against him.
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On June 07 2012 00:42 dakalro wrote:
All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
Then you should do that. Find a single other Bo7 and find a while bunch of super risky and fishy play. Do that with lucifron vision. When you try to do that, you will see how crazy watching from spade's view really is. People that really think any replay set can be found to fishy should try that. I think it will convince you that it does in fact seem like spades must be hacking.
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But then he would actually have to do something rather than pretend he's above the blind sheep that we all are. Clearly he's the only one who's being rational about this issue while all of us are rabid mindless foaming imbeciles.
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On June 07 2012 00:42 dakalro wrote:
All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
Well, if this is the final judgement of dakalro I guess we can say case closed.
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On June 07 2012 00:42 dakalro wrote:
All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
Very little of the evidence was thrown out. He plays suspiciously throughout the entire bo7 and his camera mechanics are totally different than all of the ladder replays he posted and his play is completely inconsistent with any, pro or noob, play. People like you are failing to comprehend the entire situation. It seems you have made up your mind.
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Why would "everyone" be out to get spades?
Things were done that can simply not be done without hacking, end of story.
You can not blame it on luck when the odds are literally atronomical for this being the case.
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The only way to restore his pro gaming reputation would be by finishing top 32-16 at MLG  GL doing that
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i think the most important thing is never looking in the fog of war
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On June 07 2012 01:13 artanis2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 07 2012 00:42 dakalro wrote:
All evidence being circumstantial and since the moment the initial replays started being dismissed as not too conclusive it was quite obvious people had made an opinion and were out to get Spades. I bet you could find fishy replays from a whole lot of players if you go looking for hacks.
GG, all this "investigation" turned worthless.
Very little of the evidence was thrown out. He plays suspiciously throughout the entire bo7 and his camera mechanics are totally different than all of the ladder replays he posted and his play is completely inconsistent with any, pro or noob, play. People like you are failing to comprehend the entire situation. It seems you have made up your mind.
His camera mechanics isn't that significantly different from his TvT games in the ladder replays he posted. He hardly ever watches FoW (saw it maybe 1-2 times/game the 10 TvT replays I watched from his pack and most of those were 20+ minute games) and he almost exclusively used minimap to move his armies around. Not sure where the concept that he plays incredibly differently mechanically in the lucifron series comes from unless you count in the TvZ/TvP matchups in his replaypack which might differ mechanically because of the nature of the matchups.
His play is not inconsistent if you realize that he had prepared for his series, he hardcountered builds that lucifron had played against thorzain and others on the maps, then he mixed brilliant and moronic play for a total of 3:4
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On June 07 2012 01:34 Prox wrote:The only way to restore his pro gaming reputation would be by finishing top 32-16 at MLG GL doing that
Actually, that would not help at all. Even if Mvp started hacking tomorrow, if there is reasonable evidence for a single hacking game, he should be cast out, no matter how good he actually is. It's merely the case that a difference in his play online and offline can provide more evidence either way. Yet, there seem to be examples that are convincing unless new evidence surfaces. We probably need to wait a bit more for more analysis, but if it ends as it looks like it will, then, no, Spades and any other hacker should be cast out and shunned.
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dude get real hes streaming so often and well hes so fucking good why would u cheat if u already pro ? "!
User was warned for this post
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On June 07 2012 01:43 darkxzzy wrote:
dude get real hes streaming so often and well hes so fucking good why would u cheat if u already pro ? "!
weak argument. so just because he streams he didnt hack. lol.
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Im really getting angry on spades the more i read about the topic.
True in the beginning i had no clue how hacks work so i thought he might be innocent becouse all what the OP had to offer were dessition making.
But since i saw the cats analysis and understood what they mean by screenlock and lack of looking into Fog of War im pretty sure he hacked.
If he wouldnt had denied it so hard i would have no bad feeling towards him other than that hes a sad human being now i think hes a ******* :/
Everyone who still defending his possition look closely to the Evidence and the replays. Its around 99.9% sure he used a hack.
How should the community react in such cases other than this.
If we let people get off with a warning theres no way we can be a serious Game!
We need a good anti hack software ASAP
Sad but true
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img32.imageshack.us/img32/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img268.imageshack.us/img268/815/tankcreep5.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://img703.imageshack.us/img703/5752/tankcreep6.jpg)
