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07:06 KST - method linked here has been disproved here 10:54 KST - Find a full timeline of pro comments (including Spades) in the topic here. 08:47 KST - Summary: Accusations of maphacking have the potential to destroy a player's career if left unaddressed. Because of the potential consequences, we should be careful about accepting unproven accusations. The principle of 'innocent until proven guilty' should be applied here. That does not mean that there has been a conclusion about this case, however, which is why this thread remains tentatively open. Please discuss with caution and use evidence to back up your claims. (also a summary post by an unnamed pro on reddit here) | ||
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samthesaluki
914 Posts
one thing was said if he does good at MLG he will prove it but how hard is it gonna be to do good now at MLG he prolly gonna lose alot of practice partners most people at MLG gonna give him a hard time so he's not going to be able to be fully focused. p.s i got a warning for unreadable posts ..... so bad punctuation is a warning wth. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 06 2012 22:42 samthesaluki wrote: if spades is innocent i feel sorry for him he is in a kinda no win situation what ever he does won't be good enough. one thing was said if he does good at MLG he will prove it but how hard is it gonna be to do good now at MLG he prolly gonna lose alot of practice partners most people at MLG gonna give him a hard time so he's not going to be able to be fully focused. p.s i got a warning for unreadable posts ..... so bad punctuation is a warning wth. I reported you but it could have been anyone. Here's the relevant excerpt from the TL 10 commandments 7. ENGLISH IS THE OFFICIAL LANGUAGE Ceci est un site anglophone. + Show Spoiler + Ver sa vennlig a benytt engelsk pa disse sidene. Engels is de officiele taal van deze site, gaarne geen andere taal gebruiken dan Engels. 영어 전용 사이트입니다. 영어를 사용 해주세요. このサイトは英語を共通語とするので、サイトへの書き込みは原則として英語でお願いします。 Diese Seite ist offiziell in Englisch gehalten. Inglés es el lenguaje oficial de este sitio. Use English, and please make at least a moderate attempt to spell check and type coherently. It doesn't matter how brilliant or insightful your posts are if nobody can understand them. I just could not understand you at all. The last post was much better. Also, you could rewrite the previous post so we would know what you wanted to say. Peace. | ||
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Thorantham
United States221 Posts
On June 06 2012 13:25 Amorfati wrote: ?? iNcontrol finished 4th dallas 2011, Painuser got 3rd same tourney, IdrA won D.C. 2010 & na invitational 2011 and got 4th at orlando 2011 Sorry, yes you're right on those accounts, although all but IdrA were more than a year ago. I guess I was just more frustrated that people, pro's, add fuel to the fire on such a critical accusation when there is no generally accepted way of having a 'fair trial' of sorts. | ||
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heaveshade
China330 Posts
1.how could terran know the 3rd base's position? Watch the drop at P's 3rd, after 17:10, when the medvics are close to the 'hidden' base, T controls them to load off units just beside the nexus, so he surely know there is something there, but why he's so sure and how could he land the units in the fow so precisely? Find the hidden base, load them off then almost dismiss them until you are done with another harass? That doesn't make sense to me. 2. how many of you will spam on minimap? Again the 2 drop ships, when they set off at around 16:02-16:05, you can find the move command image near the bottom left base, he clicks more than once, the camera of T, though, was set on his natural, so he must be spamming on the minimap. I find it really weird, maybe it's just me, but in my only thought, if you want to simplify the action using the minimap, you shift click one way point and the second mouse click will be on that bottom right base, that's how it goes in normal, at least in my mind. Does it look like camera scroll? | ||
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samthesaluki
914 Posts
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artanis2
United States732 Posts
On June 06 2012 22:50 heaveshade wrote: alright, alej vs spades on entombed valley. 1.how could terran know the 3rd base's position? Watch the drop at P's 3rd, after 17:10, when the medvics are close to the 'hidden' base, T controls them to load off units just beside the nexus, so he surely know there is something there, but why he's so sure and how could he land the units in the fow so precisely? Find the hidden base, load them off then almost dismiss them until you are done with another harass? That doesn't make sense to me. 2. how many of you will spam on minimap? Again the 2 drop ships, when they set off at around 16:02-16:05, you can find the move command image near the bottom left base, he clicks more than once, the camera of T, though, was set on his natural, so he must be spamming on the minimap. I find it really weird, maybe it's just me, but in my only thought, if you want to simplify the action using the minimap, you shift click one way point and the second mouse click will be on that bottom right base, that's how it goes in normal, at least in my mind. Does it look like camera scroll? That first point is pretty good. I can't believe there are still people defending spades. "Dropping a base that might be empty is totally normal guys! Standard play! Lucky guess!" /s | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 06 2012 21:39 Euronyme wrote: This is actually pretty funny. When Catz did his thing, I caught myself thinking "hey that could be me". When you see spades stopping all actions for a second I think of myself tabbing down to change a track or whatever. I think a fair amount of overanalysing is going on ^^ lol thats not how it works in high level starcraft. | ||
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redc
Australia81 Posts
On June 06 2012 21:38 Geiko wrote: The clicks he made under the warp prism were too precise to have been made with the minimap. imo this should be able to be proven/disproven, go into the map, issue move commands on all the pixels in that area (maybe a 5x5 grid would be enough), look at the replay and see if the markers match (the exact camera position/resolution settings might be important also). I don't think it's yet been proven that the clicks were not made from the minimap and people are jumping to conclusions. ...also what people are assuming are "camera locks" look to be no different than moving the mouse to the mini-map, clicking a few times and moving the mouse back. (1st post, please be gentle if I am way off the mark) | ||
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Neurosis
United States893 Posts
On June 06 2012 22:57 redc wrote: imo this should be able to be proven/disproven, go into the map, issue move commands on all the pixels in that area (maybe a 5x5 grid would be enough), look at the replay and see if the markers match (the exact camera position/resolution settings might be important also). I don't think it's yet been proven that the clicks were not made from the minimap and people are jumping to conclusions. ...also what people are assuming are "camera locks" look to be no different than moving the mouse to the mini-map, clicking a few times and moving the mouse back. (1st post, please be gentle if I am way off the mark) You aren't exactly off the mark. What you say is true, but the thing is no pro plays like that, not even Spades himself. They have shown vods from his stream where he consistently looks into the fog to give unit commands or rally/whatever. I'm not saying noone gives commands from the minimap, but no one ONLY gives commands from the minimap (at least no pro level player). Which seems to be the case in the replays that are being analyzed. As someone that plays way too much Starcraft myself that evidence alone is enough to convince me of hacking, but when you mix it with all the other ridiculously suspicious shit such as the miraculous scan on shakuras, the "oh shit I'm about to get dropped in my main let me just unsiege all my tanks and return home even though I have no vision of it" that occured on tal darim, I mean come on this is obvious maphacking. | ||
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Betsfrox
Venezuela248 Posts
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 06 2012 21:33 Alejandrisha wrote: Sorry, I'm confused... it was posted earlier by people who actually know the real existing camera lock hack that in fact it doesn't record any action in the replay during camera lock, the APM in the replay should be zero during camera locks... how does he select stuff during camera lock then?1. every time the camera locks the only actions are hotkeys. this is true throughout the entire replay. | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 06 2012 22:50 heaveshade wrote: alright, alej vs spades on entombed valley. 1.how could terran know the 3rd base's position? Watch the drop at P's 3rd, after 17:10, when the medvics are close to the 'hidden' base, T controls them to load off units just beside the nexus, so he surely know there is something there, but why he's so sure and how could he land the units in the fow so precisely? Find the hidden base, load them off then almost dismiss them until you are done with another harass? That doesn't make sense to me. 2. how many of you will spam on minimap? Again the 2 drop ships, when they set off at around 16:02-16:05, you can find the move command image near the bottom left base, he clicks more than once, the camera of T, though, was set on his natural, so he must be spamming on the minimap. I find it really weird, maybe it's just me, but in my only thought, if you want to simplify the action using the minimap, you shift click one way point and the second mouse click will be on that bottom right base, that's how it goes in normal, at least in my mind. Does it look like camera scroll? That first point is excellent! It looks so unbelievable in the replay. He knows NOTHING about anything in that part of the map, yet times two medivacs to arrive at the same time to the main and to and random base that he does not know anything about. He scrolls for a while over an empty location (in the FOW) and the chooses a drop location that is just outside range of a cannon but close enough to target probes (in between buildings). I wish I had the game sense to drop empty bases (when there are 6 potential ones to choose from). | ||
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Nyast
Belgium554 Posts
On June 06 2012 21:39 Santiago4ever wrote: Watched the entire replay. So the context was: Spades had just lost a fight with the protoss army between their bases and retreated with what remains. He's at his third base gathering his forces when a WP moves in and warps 3 zealots at the 4th base. He starts moving his entire army down the ramp of the second base but stops because he's not an idiot, who in their right mind would move his entire army (or split his army) up into a dead end when there most likely is a protoss army (which just beat you) in the middle of the map waiting to pounce on you. Also fun to note, he finally moves up the ramp with his army... and loses it entirely to the protoss ball which was waiting outside to pounce, another "hacking" game where he loses... go figure. I just don't get it. At this point I'm still unconvinced of whether he hacks or not. There are so many suspicious moves when you take them out of context. What I find the most interesting is how bad he plays, loses armies/units, apparently just to "hide" the fact he's map hacking. Take that replay for example and assume that he does map hack. On one hand, he stops his army from moving before he sees the Protoss army, cause he obviously doesn't want to lose it, right ? On the other hand, he apparently decides to waste his army by going up that ramp to fake the fact that he's hacking.. ? Isn't there like a.. small contradiction here ? What hacker would use a hack to save his army, then to sacrifice it later to cover his traces ? | ||
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Bogeyman
Sweden307 Posts
On June 06 2012 10:55 dvorakftw wrote: If I point out that the 3rd he was leaving was mined out and therefore expendable, would you still consider this Class 4 Well it was still important to him. He left a significant investment there nonetheless: a few tanks and lots of SCVs (the majority I think?). But still, he may have thought it was more important to protect his production. Still seems weird, unless of course he did notice the units move to the north of his main right before the scan there wore off while he was defending the 3rd. I commented somewhere saying that with that in mind I should probably consider it a Class 3 or even 2 depending on how reasonable it seems for him to have noticed that on the minimap while being very busy defending the 3rd. On June 06 2012 11:14 emythrel wrote:It is strange indeed. I am in no position to judge him, those that are have done that and haven't been able to convince me. If he was hacking, as i edited in to my original post, he is a terrible hacker. Good hackers don't change their gameplay when hacking compared to when they aren't hacking. suddenly playing with completely different mechanics and style is basically screaming out to the world that you are hacking, if he was hacking, he certainly wasn't doing much to hide it. That fact alone makes me doubt that he was because he is an experienced hacker from bw who would know better. Again, I'm no expert but I don't think you can compare hacking in an FPS and hacking in an RTS, and perhaps you're not doing that. Either way: in an RTS there are a lot more decisions and a significantly higher cognitive workload. If you introduce information to the player that he must act as if he doesn't have but still exploit to his advantage that's a factor in every decision that makes it even harder than normal, and eventually he will fuck up. During the early game especially, when there's not too much pressure on the player, it would be easier to hide it. But in a high-pressure situation where you need to macro your ass off and play a positional TvT it's can't be easy to make a snap-decision based on information that may or may not be available or intuitive to you had you not been using a hack. But maybe someone with more experience from hacking in the bw scene could comment on that? On June 06 2012 12:22 jacksonlee wrote:There is no way to detect the hack through analysis then. Because the player can look into fog and yet it won't matter because the hack can compensate for that. By that logic, there is no way to track the hack Assuming the hack is used well there won't be any evidence of that specific nature (ie he's looking at the army movement through fog of war, he's selecting units he cannot see) but the hack can still be sloppily used. He could either activate the screen lock when he wants to check the enemy's main, or he could forget to and it would be obvious he is hacking. I haven't found an instance of that though. He could also be using an automated variant, which would make his behavior look very different from his normal play. For example if he sends an SCV to scout and doesn't notice when it arrives, and the SCV exits the base, normally he would look at what the SCV scouted right? But with the automated screen lock on it wouldn't show him checking the base. That wouldn't be hard proof, but it's very fishy, and if such weird behavior can be shown consistently then that could at least be considered incriminating (suggestive evidence, not hard evidence). And on top of that we can analyze his decisions based on the information he has. Some decisions will be more reasonable than others, and yes he might just be making really weird decisions, but again if enough of these occurrences are found then it is incriminating. Hard evidence is not always needed to find someone guilty. Enough incriminating evidence and witnesses can be enough. Though this is obviously not a court of law, so I guess these rules don't exactly apply as we aren't bound by law to consider these things when making our judgments, but we should. And you shouldn't be so adamant about there being no way to detect foul play (hacking or otherwise). Be reasonable. | ||
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floor exercise
Canada5847 Posts
On June 06 2012 23:08 figq wrote: Sorry, I'm confused... it was posted earlier by people who actually know the real existing camera lock hack that in fact it doesn't record any action in the replay during camera lock, the APM in the replay should be zero during camera locks... how does he select stuff during camera lock then? This is true for the most common free hack out there. For a while now hacks have turned to subscription and pay models. I haven't heard what if anything is different in those. It would certainly be helpful to know that what he does is possible with a certain hack that is out there, since I think we can reasonably rule out Spades being some mastermind hacker who makes his own tools | ||
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figq
12519 Posts
On June 06 2012 23:15 floor exercise wrote: So... nobody even knows if such type of hack required for the accusation here actually exists? Interesting.This is true for the most common free hack out there. For a while now hacks have turned to subscription and pay models. I haven't heard what if anything is different in those. It would certainly be helpful to know that what he does is possible with a certain hack that is out there, since I think we can reasonably rule out Spades being some mastermind hacker who makes his own tools | ||
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HoBBiT
Spain34 Posts
min 17:20 Dropping in a fogg base protos, and he is not maphacking sure !!! here you have another point --> He is not maphacking sure!!!! | ||
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mEtRoSG
Germany192 Posts
im a gm terran on eu and watched all the replays and the amount of sillieness is just too overhelming nobody half decend can play like this without a maphack, its painfully obvious and nobody on a hig lvl should defend this guy.... and all that innocent until proven guilty talk is total bs since it cant be applied in this situation and sc2 in general since nobody watched the games in spades room right behind him and saw what he was doing...thats impossible guilt can only be proven if the blizz launcher detects the hack which wasnt the case at that point in time, so judgement can only be taken through evidences whcih there are enough of in the replays edit: also spades defence is seriously sad, common "a hacker would never do this here or do that" is the worst defence ive ever heard in my life, if u dont want to be painfully obvious u obvisouly add in some errors to your play so it isnt too obvious.... it still is obvious though | ||
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heaveshade
China330 Posts
Assuming the hack is used well there won't be any evidence of that specific nature (ie he's looking at the army movement through fog of war, he's selecting units he cannot see) but the hack can still be sloppily used. He could either activate the screen lock when he wants to check the enemy's main, or he could forget to and it would be obvious he is hacking. I haven't found an instance of that though. He could also be using an automated variant, which would make his behavior look very different from his normal play. For example if he sends an SCV to scout and doesn't notice when it arrives, and the SCV exits the base, normally he would look at what the SCV scouted right? But with the automated screen lock on it wouldn't show him checking the base. That wouldn't be hard proof, but it's very fishy, and if such weird behavior can be shown consistently then that could at least be considered incriminating (suggestive evidence, not hard evidence). And on top of that we can analyze his decisions based on the information he has. Some decisions will be more reasonable than others, and yes he might just be making really weird decisions, but again if enough of these occurrences are found then it is incriminating. Hard evidence is not always needed to find someone guilty. Enough incriminating evidence and witnesses can be enough. Though this is obviously not a court of law, so I guess these rules don't exactly apply as we aren't bound by law to consider these things when making our judgments, but we should. And you shouldn't be so adamant about there being no way to detect foul play (hacking or otherwise). Be reasonable. quite agree on this section, he will leave evidence here and there, unless cheaters don't want to win. well, that entombed valley game was quite suspicious, noob hackers simply turtle and wait for the opponent's tricks, on pro level, it's not that obvious..Can we find some shorter games, with all-ins and other extreme play which force hacker to make a decision he is not supposed to? Last time we solve a puzzle through this. | ||
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Scisyhp
United States200 Posts
On June 06 2012 23:17 figq wrote: So... nobody even knows if such type of hack required for the accusation here actually exists? Interesting. Well obviously, there is no way to track down every hack so we assume that if he is hacking, he is using a hack with reasonable features. | ||
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