On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
Sorry that I just don't buy into a bunch of random speculation from a random guy posting on TL.
I'm excited and terrified at the same time. I'm glad the BW veterans will be able to play in foreign tournaments eventually, but at the same time I'm hoping this "exclusivity clause" doesn't turn out to be as terrible as it potentially could be.
Here's to hoping MLG can be the hero we need, and make it work for everyone in the end.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
Sorry that I just don't buy into a bunch of random speculation from a random guy posting on TL.
While I have made assumptions in my posts they are still based on the implications of this "exclusive" agreement between MLG/Kespa. In fact it been more than implied that Sundance will be the "gate keeper" to the current BW pros switching. I think this is a bullshit arrangement and I don't think its good for the international scene. These are simply my opinions and I do realize only time will tell how things really play out.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
Sorry that I just don't buy into a bunch of random speculation from a random guy posting on TL.
While I have made assumptions in my posts they are still based on the implications of this "exclusive" agreement between MLG/Kespa. In fact it been more than implied that Sundance will be the "gate keeper" to the current BW pros switching. I think this is a bullshit arrangement and I don't think its good for the international scene. These are simply my opinions and I do realize only time will tell how things really play out.
Would rather have something than nothing at all. Would hate to see Kespa ignore the foreign scene and just stay in Korea, So thank you Sundance for giving them a reason to come out.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
Sorry that I just don't buy into a bunch of random speculation from a random guy posting on TL.
While I have made assumptions in my posts they are still based on the implications of this "exclusive" agreement between MLG/Kespa. In fact it been more than implied that Sundance will be the "gate keeper" to the current BW pros switching. I think this is a bullshit arrangement and I don't think its good for the international scene. These are simply my opinions and I do realize only time will tell how things really play out.
Would rather have something than nothing at all. Would hate to see Kespa ignore the foreign scene and just stay in Korea, So thank you Sundance for giving them a reason to come out.
Why are you implying they weren't going to come out regardless? I don't get it. They've had players travel to the US before, with WCG and even Blizzcon. One of the big things they talked about last week was expanding to the foreign scene because closing off was bad for BW. If IPL wanted to fly them out barring they weren't busy at the time I really don't think KeSPA would have said no. MLG didn't make something happen that wouldn't have before, they jumped on it before anything could happen and now everyone has to go through them.
On May 11 2012 18:07 StriderDoom wrote: im glad for esports if this all works out but, if leagues like the GSL, NASL, etc start to go under because of stuff like this im going to be so bummed
GSL is too big to fall at this point, It's IPL/NASL/DH/IEM that should be worried.
Have to disagree, this will really puts more pressure on GOM than the others. SC2 doesn't seem massive in Korea. The BW legends making the transition might boost it, and well Kespa has them.
The others you stated, have easy access to foreigners. The Koreans that have attended those will likely continue doing so. That is unless MLG really wants to choke out competition and plan things during IPL etc.
You really overestimate how many people would want to watch untested BW pros play sc2 after the novelty has worn off. Compared to current sc2 legends like mvp,nestea,mc,marineking,drg they aren't popular other than Flash because he's all over Reddit all day, Bisu kind of as well but mostly Flash.
My thoughts exactly. I also doubt there will be any player that can dominate the sc2 scene for a length of time considering the significantly lower mechanical skill cap compared to BW... top players will likely be constantly shifting around as we've already seen with the game.
What The Fuck. Shit just got real. Man Anaheim is going to be insane with all these things happenning all at once there. I'm starting to get worried that since there is so much great stuff going on at once, that the production might be hurt a bit. I certainly hope not though.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
[quote]
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
here:
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
They wouldn't even compete outside of korea in the first place if MLG didn't have any exclusive deals. MLG just gave them a reason to compete outside. and now the community is blasting them for it.
No that's not the case. Without an exclusive deal, everyone would be free to offer BW players travel compensations and other benefits to attract them to tournaments. This way, KeSPA only extends its monopoly through a third party branch. Negotations now have to go through KeSPA and MLG. The strong grip they already impose over their part of the market is only further promoted through this.
We can not possibly know which side, or even both, were pushing for exclusivity. It might have been a requirement KeSPA themselves put up. As it stands, the deal is consciously locking out competitors from the very start. Understandable, yes. One may like it or not, but KeSPA is free to push their own agenda and philosophy of running things. It's certainly is not outlandish to keep your operations withing tight control. To expand your reach overseas came with a price, which MLG surely was not unhappy to collect. Yes, they are in talks with DH, IEM. But these talks happen at the grace of MLG. If such a monopoly is better in the long run remains to be seen.
I'd bet it was Kespa pushing for exclusivity as I can't see Kespa being happy with losing their players to all those leagues. Again I doubt Kespa would let their players play outside of korea unless there's a partnership.
There is a distinction between partnership and exclusive partnership. Yes, it is highly likely KeSPA is interested in a controlled enviroment. It just so happens that MLG managed to be in the right place at the right time. Certainly smart business. possibly detrimental to the scene, still.
On May 12 2012 07:55 Rorschach wrote: You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill. It would be an exclusive arrangement between MLG/Kespa and the new Proleagues players.
This sums up the sentiment of 80% of this thread. Lies and or poor assumptions are clouding so many people's judgements.
Please reread the announcement or rewatch Sundance's interviews and point out where it is mentioned this is what the exclusivtiy deal means instead of what you are imagining it to be.
On May 12 2012 07:55 Rorschach wrote: You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill. It would be an exclusive arrangement between MLG/Kespa and the new Proleagues players.
This sums up the sentiment of 80% of this thread. Lies and or poor assumptions are clouding so many people's judgements.
Please reread the announcement or rewatch Sundance's interviews and point out where it is mentioned this is what the exclusivtiy deal means instead of what you are imagining it to be.
how can "they would have to go through me" possibly be more clear?
and still doesnt answer the single controversial and most important question: does one have to go through MLG in order to negotiate BW player attendance or is everybody free to approach KeSPA directly? Adam's boss at least gave a different answer. KeSPA dictating their own terms is their legitimate right. But we still have no conclusive answer on why DH has to be in talks with MLG, and not KeSPA. it means de-facto everybody is dependent on MLG's willingness to play nice.
From what I heard in state of the game last night, (if I remember right) KeSPA wanted this "exclusive" thing to protect/control players and allow them to schedule matches with MLG so that they won't mix with proleague? I mean I guess players will be allowed to travel anywhere if they want to, but with both MLG and proleague matches, will they have time to?
Especially with SC2 training and all. Sundance did say that KeSPA didn't limit itself to MLG only for next several years and that other leagues will be able to come to sit and talk with them?
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
Look at this guy meticulously building up a strawman and destroying it in a blaze of glory. Bravo.
Sorry that I just don't buy into a bunch of random speculation from a random guy posting on TL.
While I have made assumptions in my posts they are still based on the implications of this "exclusive" agreement between MLG/Kespa. In fact it been more than implied that Sundance will be the "gate keeper" to the current BW pros switching. I think this is a bullshit arrangement and I don't think its good for the international scene. These are simply my opinions and I do realize only time will tell how things really play out.
Would rather have something than nothing at all. Would hate to see Kespa ignore the foreign scene and just stay in Korea, So thank you Sundance for giving them a reason to come out.
Why are you implying they weren't going to come out regardless? I don't get it. They've had players travel to the US before, with WCG and even Blizzcon. One of the big things they talked about last week was expanding to the foreign scene because closing off was bad for BW. If IPL wanted to fly them out barring they weren't busy at the time I really don't think KeSPA would have said no. MLG didn't make something happen that wouldn't have before, they jumped on it before anything could happen and now everyone has to go through them.
WCG by Samsung part/sponsors Kespa
Blizzard they made the damn game
Only 2 exceptions of the decade.
Where did everyone get this weird assumption that Kespa would allow their players to play in tournaments outside of korea, If MLG didn't have an exclusive deal.
Where did everyone get this weird assumption that Kespa would allow their players to play in tournaments outside of korea, If MLG didn't have an exclusive deal.
It's more like KeSPA wanting to take things slowly since they have never been outside Korea before (on regular basis).
EPT
