On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill. It would be an exclusive arrangement between MLG/Kespa and the new Proleagues players. On the the other hand Gom has allowed the teams to do operate however they want when it comes to attending foreign tournaments. The only thing keeping Korean teams from participating would be the individual teams financial situation in which case many organizations have offered to sponsor korean attendants because it draws a crowd.
You are missing a sort of important point in all of this though. If you assume that the players will eventually play in GSL as well as whatever OGN comes up with as well as MLG than the days that they have to spare are probably limited.
The exclusivity doesn't seem like the biggest deal to me. BW Pros (and all Koreans) are already going to be playing in Proleague, OSL, and likely GSL soon. Most of them aren't going to have a bunch of time fly to foreign events.
It seems like it is going to hurt the less known players though. Think of the players we learned of because they did well at some random foreign event. I don't see this "killing SC2" though as some people are saying...
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
MLG is having 11 live events this year with their Arenas. Their prize pool is "paltry" compared to GSL? Really? GSL gives out $153,965 over the course of a season. In roughly the same amount of time, MLG gives out $113,300. So paltry in comparison...
And IPL, DH, Iron Squid have equal or higher prize pools. DH's prize pool at Stockholm? $22,400. At DH Summer it will be $28,738. If DH keeps their Open tournaments with the same prize pool as Stockholm, which is likely, and Summer has the same prizepool as winter, they will give out $124,676, which is close to the amount as one season of MLG (aka Spring Season 2 arenas + championship event).
IPL has a great $100,000 prize pool. But that big tournament is probably only running twice a year. In the long run, MLG is still paying out more money.
NASL is in the same boat as IPL. Huge $100,000 prize pool, but they run about 2 events a year.
IronSquid had a $25,000 prize pool. And no one knows when the next event will be.
You seem rather misinformed about how much MLG is paying out. Its around $450,000 this year for sc2. Now why would GSL players miss out on this? To send MLG a message that wouldn't even make sense?
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
I am slightly concerned about the possibility of two distinct groups of players forming, where KESPA and MLG have one group and the GSL/IPL have the other group and the groups do not mix or play in the same tournaments. This would resemble Professional Darts which effectively has two rival World Championships and two different pools of players. I am worried that this announcement of an alliance between KESPA and MLG is the beginning of such a split in the SC2 scene.
I don't know much at all about the BroodWar Scene and Kespa but InControl's comments on Kespa make me worried about the Foreign Scene in SC2. There is a thriving foreign scene in SC2 and I do not want KESPA coming in and trying to take advantage of the Foreign Scene to reap unearned benefits, and to do so at the expense of Foreign players who have helped build up interest in the SC2 scene.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
How is it any better than MLG/Kespa intending to keep their league/pros exclusive to MLG/Proleague? It obviously wouldn't be good for current players HOWEVER consider the implications of what this "exclusive" partnership brings to the table. If they kill off the competition I guarantee you every event will become PPV and the quality will degrade as there is no competitors fostering a healthy market.... The amazing high level play we've seen the past year is because GOM has supported the foreign scene with its player pool. Think about how many korean pros have traveled to play all weekend and return on Monday to play in their GSL matches/groups. Just having these pros showing up at every large international tournament has been amazing. Also they've seeded lots of players into code S and allowed ppl to compete in Code A without being on a Korean team. I don't foresee Kespa/MLG being as generous with their teams and scheduling.
Well you clearly know everything and have talked exclusively with Kespa and MLG representatives. I guess in two years everyone will be paying their cable provider $60 for MLG Championship PPV. I'm sorry, I didn't realize you were so connected to everyone and knew this deal that well.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:22 Rorschach wrote: Disliking MLG more and more (I am sure Kespa has their fair share of the blame on this particular issue).... When we have all these smaller grassroots tournaments being held that are very high standards I see no place for an approach that Sundance is taking.
They need us the viewer and not the other way around. Just because they have the game/broadcasting capabilities doesn't mean we should jump through hoops to see unproven players. As far as I am concerned GSL will keep the highest caliber of players and until the new Proleague proves me wrong it will stay that way. Just remember to vote with your wallet!
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote: [quote]
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
no... it means you have to make an agreement with MLG to get them. You were going to have to make an agreement with Kespa anyways. Sundance has already reached out to DreamHack about DH having Kespa players.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote: [quote]
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
It means you have to arrange with KeSPA no matter what, and additionally with MLG.
Sure, every player won't, and has not been, and is not able to attend each and every event. But so far it has been under the discretion of the team and the player to decide. GSL didn't step in to tell what to do and what not to do.
BW players are naturally under KeSPA control, which is a fact that has down- and upsides, but ultimately out of our reach. So yeah, without MLG you would have to negotiate with KeSPA anyway- but won't have to pay a middle-man to do it.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:27 Dosey wrote: [quote]
If I were any player in the GSL, I would refuse to attend MLGs. MLG is trying to corner the market by owning exclusive rights to some of the most anticipated players... But if those anticipated players remain untested against the current top players, can their exclusive product really be legitimized?
Who gives a F if untested brood war players beat up on foreigners and themselves. Let them.
What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
They wouldn't even compete outside of korea in the first place if MLG didn't have any exclusive deals. MLG just gave them a reason to compete outside. and now the community is blasting them for it.
this is just the start. Exclusive agreements and such are just the beginning of the split in the scene. With the scene growth and money involved and the estimations of the value of the scene in the coming years, we will see some drastic changes when it comes to trying to control the revenue. My tinfoil hat fits me well
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote:
On May 12 2012 07:38 jmbthirteen wrote: [quote] What good would that do for the current GSL players? All it would do is give those GSL players less tournaments to play in. Tournaments that pay the way for the GSL players to get there and have damn good prize pools. And as long as they keep their skill up, they will continue to get free rides to MLGs.
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
They wouldn't even compete outside of korea in the first place if MLG didn't have any exclusive deals. MLG just gave them a reason to compete outside. and now the community is blasting them for it.
No that's not the case. Without an exclusive deal, everyone would be free to offer BW players travel compensations and other benefits to attract them to tournaments. This way, KeSPA only extends its monopoly through a third party branch. Negotations now have to go through KeSPA and MLG. The strong grip they already impose over their part of the market is only further promoted through this.
We can not possibly know which side, or even both, were pushing for exclusivity. It might have been a requirement KeSPA themselves put up. As it stands, the deal is consciously locking out competitors from the very start. Understandable, yes. One may like it or not, but KeSPA is free to push their own agenda and philosophy of running things. It's certainly is not outlandish to keep your operations withing tight control. To expand your reach overseas came with a price, which MLG surely was not unhappy to collect. Yes, they are in talks with DH, IEM. But these talks happen at the grace of MLG. If such a monopoly is better in the long run remains to be seen.
OGN and GOM will have Proleague/OSL and the GSL/GSTL, MLG will have their tournaments and IPL will have their major championship, but I cannot see for the life of me any top player playing in the GSL and Proleague on a regular bases playing outside of Korea in the US for reasons other than MLG, the European scene will mostly be hurting because of this. It's sad, but the Korean scene will be so stacked with tournaments and practice, they won't have time to travel, and foreign StarCraft 2 will fall into a pit of despair.
On May 12 2012 07:43 Ammanas wrote: This thread is so full of bullshit. Basically, nothing changes. Kespa players will attend events that pay the trip. Wont be attending those that dont pay. Basically GSL teams are doing more or less the same right now. Either their players are sponsored by some foreigner money (either event pays or sponsor or the foreign partnership) and they go to events, or they dont and they dont go. Simple as that.
On May 12 2012 07:41 Dosey wrote: [quote]
MLG is having what? 5 events a year? And their prize pools are paltry compared to GSL. Meanwhile they (GSL players) can attend IPL, DH, Iron Squid, and all these other smaller tournaments with somehow =/> prizepools of MLG.
But they cant! IPL was paying for their Koreans (either by invites or GOMTV paying for GSTL teams. DH was not paying and they had like 5 koreans (out of which one of them was paid by ESV if I am not mistaken, others were Koreans on foreigner teams or with foreign partnerships who were paying for trips and 2 TSL guys who were probably sent there by Polt winning MSI Pro Cups). Iron Squid was online and final four trip was paid by Iron Squid.
MLG is also paying for Koreans (and fortunately now for EUs and NAs). They will work with Dreamhack and probably other events as well with KESPA players in mind, as confirmed by Sundance. Also IEM is paying for their Koreans. Everyone is paying for Koreans, one way or another.
You're missing the big picture. The difference would be Kespa wouldn't allow their teams/players to participate in IPL/DH/ETC regardless of the venue offering to foot the bill.
Where and when has this been confirmed to be what is happening here? It hasn't...people are just overreacting.
edit: guy above me has his head on straight, at least.
Incontrol: "So just for clarity's sake, as it stands right now, if there were no conversations we would only see KESPA players in the KESPA league and MLG because that is the exclusive agreement?"
Sundance: "Yep"
Incontrol: "And what you're talking about is the potential in the future for you, Sundance DiGiovanni, to talk to who you choose to see if these players want to go to other places, if KESPA agrees with that?
Sundance: "Not just who I choose, anybody can come to me and ask can we do this, can we do that outside of South Korea. I'll entertain it and I'll make the introductions. I mean again, there's certain people we'll be more inclined to work with than others, but again, that's what you get in business. We can all pow along until the health of the business is on the line, and my point goes beyond tournaments to teams. I want to be able to go to KESPA and say, you know here's Evil Geniuses and here's Liquid and I want to get them plugged into what you [KESPA] are doing."
What in that statement says that KeSPA will never send their players to other events? Everyone is just acting like there is never going to be that possibility, ever, which is clearly not the case.
It means you have to go through SD to get BW players.
So this equates into KeSPA players never going to any event other than MLG?
They wouldn't even compete outside of korea in the first place if MLG didn't have any exclusive deals. MLG just gave them a reason to compete outside. and now the community is blasting them for it.
No that's not the case. Without an exclusive deal, everyone would be free to offer BW players travel compensations and other benefits to attract them to tournaments. This way, KeSPA only extends its monopoly through a third party branch. Negotations now have to go through KeSPA and MLG. The strong grip they already impose over their part of the market is only further promoted through this.
We can not possibly know which side, or even both, were pushing for exclusivity. It might have been a requirement KeSPA themselves put up. As it stands, the deal is consciously locking out competitors from the very start. Understandable, yes. One may like it or not, but KeSPA is free to push their own agenda and philosophy of running things. It's certainly is not outlandish to keep your operations withing tight control. To expand your reach overseas came with a price, which MLG surely was not unhappy to collect. Yes, they are in talks with DH, IEM. But these talks happen at the grace of MLG. If such a monopoly is better in the long run remains to be seen.
I'd bet it was Kespa pushing for exclusivity as I can't see Kespa being happy with losing their players to all those leagues. Again I doubt Kespa would let their players play outside of korea unless there's a partnership.
EPT
