EPTNo worries, because Queens anti air attack is already large correct? I don't think blizzard would intend to change queen air range as well, that is something i cannot actually see blizzard being dumb enough to do.
Call to Action: Balance Testing (live custom map) - Page 96
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
No worries, because Queens anti air attack is already large correct? I don't think blizzard would intend to change queen air range as well, that is something i cannot actually see blizzard being dumb enough to do. | ||
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Debian
Canada95 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:14 FakeDeath wrote: You are wrong.1 Rax FE will be more popular if this change goes through. 12/14 rax is easily denied if zergs pull couple of drones and build the magic number of 8 lings to stop 2 rax. Then you are behind. But hellions opening will still be viable since they are needed to control creep spread,grant map control, scout, deny third base. The thing with that build is that you're forcing lings and trying to do as much damage as you can and expanding behind it. You aren't trying to kill them. I can still see why people might like 1 rax fe better though. IDK if that'd always work though. You need to get some sort of damage done, if you don't then the zerg will run you over. How would you accomplish that? | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:15 convention wrote: What does everyone think will be the impact of the queen range buff on stargate openings in PvZ? I'm not sure how much of a change it will add. While the queens will more easily be able to stay under spores, I think that the mobiltity of air units will still allow protoss to cycle their air units (they just might have to cycle a little bit sooner to get out of the range of the queen a little bit sooner). This change will not affect stargate opening unless you are 1stargate into 4 gate pressure. But then that is pretty all-in. Queen can stay further back and poke better on zealots maybe?? But queens are used to focus down on the air units and let roaches deal with units. So yeah this change won't affect stargate play but if it was the 50 energy queen THEN that will affect stargate play by a lot. But since 50 energy queen has cut, no point talking about it anymore. | ||
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c0sm0naut
United States1229 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:19 Debian wrote: The thing with that build is that you're forcing lings and trying to do as much damage as you can and expanding behind it. You aren't trying to kill them. I can still see why people might like 1 rax fe better though. IDK if that'd always work though. You need to get some sort of damage done, if you don't then the zerg will run you over. How would you accomplish that? 1 rax fe gives zerg free creep spread, it's a good opening but you need to be extremely quick in your hellion follow up (many terran players get caught with their greedy pants down, only building 1 marine before capping both their refs and making their bunker) or else the map is a covered in jelly by 10 min | ||
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:19 Debian wrote: The thing with that build is that you're forcing lings and trying to do as much damage as you can and expanding behind it. You aren't trying to kill them. I can still see why people might like 1 rax fe better though. IDK if that'd always work though. You need to get some sort of damage done, if you don't then the zerg will run you over. How would you accomplish that? 12/14 rax really depends on location(proxy,forward rax) and how the greedy the zerg is(late pool taking gas before pool 15/17gas/16pool) and how commited you are(pulling SCVs). Like what you said 12/14 rax must do damage to be even in economy. But most zergs know how to handle 2 rax pretty well already and if they can immediately denied your 2 rax push with lings + drones. You will be behind. But its good on certain maps like Entombed Valley and Shakuras Plateau(triple bunker block). | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 06 2012 00:16 teamhozac wrote: Im more angry at the retards actually advocating these buffs, and speaking of pros, fabledintegral and jinro are both in this thread saying how ridiculous these buffs are.... yep.. oh, and... IM GOING TO TIE YOU TO THE RADIATOR AND GRAPE YOU IN THE MOUTH Haha I'm no pro.  . Jinro is far better than me.On May 06 2012 02:27 FakeDeath wrote: 12/14 rax really depends on location(proxy,forward rax) and how the greedy the zerg is(late pool taking gas before pool 15/17gas/16pool) and how commited you are(pulling SCVs). Like what you said 12/14 rax must do damage to be even in economy. But most zergs know how to handle 2 rax pretty well already and if they can immediately denied your 2 rax push with lings + drones. You will be behind. But its good on certain maps like Entombed Valley and Shakuras Plateau(triple bunker block). Depends how you view it. I don't think you require to do damage with 12/14 rax. In fact, the Zerg can drone less as a result when compared to a reactor hellion opening, and the expansion comes out around the same time. Why do you think you have to do damage? I use 2rax all the time. The main reason I believe it's not used as much is that if the Zerg opted for a speedling build, you lose map control with a 2rax, meaning that the Zerg can spread creep easier. Economy is the same, the transition is different. You have a very odd image of always having to do damage. I'd say a Zerg is significantly more ahead in economy vs a reaper opening than anything, vs that you can build 2 lings and go pure drones and just defend with queens. | ||
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Bellazuk
Canada146 Posts
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FakeDeath
Malaysia6060 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:29 FabledIntegral wrote: Haha I'm no pro. . Jinro is far better than me.Depends how you view it. I don't think you require to do damage with 12/14 rax. In fact, the Zerg can drone less as a result when compared to a reactor hellion opening, and the expansion comes out around the same time. Why do you think you have to do damage? I use 2rax all the time. The main reason I believe it's not used as much is that if the Zerg opted for a speedling build, you lose map control with a 2rax, meaning that the Zerg can spread creep easier. Economy is the same, the transition is different. You have a very odd image of always having to do damage. I'd say a Zerg is significantly more ahead in economy vs a reaper opening than anything, vs that you can build 2 lings and go pure drones and just defend with queens. Well i view in it the sense because everybody that so far go for 2 rax must do damage or at least put on some pressure. I will be happy that if you can show me some replay where 2 rax dun have to do damage. I prefer 1 Rax FE over 2 rax because i feel that going 2 rax will put me behind in terms of economy if i dun apply enough pressure or damage. | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 06 2012 02:40 FakeDeath wrote: Well i view in it the sense because everybody that so far go for 2 rax must do damage or at least put on some pressure. I will be happy that if you can show me some replay where 2 rax dun have to do damage. I prefer 1 Rax FE over 2 rax because i feel that going 2 rax will put me behind in terms of economy if i dun apply enough pressure or damage. Well yes, you have to apply enough pressure. As in forcing lings. But no, you don't actually have to kill the drones. Just make them get pulled maybe vs the bunkers, and have lings stream out. If anything, if they know it's 1rax FE, 1rax FE puts you behind economically relative to 2rax because the Zerg can pop out a ton of drones sooner without worrying about having to build lings. Usually you only see 1 rax expo if you're going to follow it up with reactor hellions and then possibly take a quick third (that's how you get ahead economically). And I say that VERY loosely, as there's a billion followups of course and I'm not even suggesting that is the best, that's just what I've seen. | ||
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 06 2012 03:56 archonOOid wrote: Just saw MMA do an maruader/hellion/scv allin in the iron squid tournament, the increased ranged attack will help zergs to keep the queens alive longer in those kind of battles. It's an allin that's held nearly 50% of the time, and will be held if Zerg scouts it usually. I don't see an issue with that build TOO much, tbh. | ||
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DrPhilOfdOOm
Sweden353 Posts
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drbrown
Sweden442 Posts
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On May 06 2012 03:58 FabledIntegral wrote: It's an allin that's held nearly 50% of the time, and will be held if Zerg scouts it usually. I don't see an issue with that build TOO much, tbh. well, if it was really 50% winrate, I would have a huge problem with it. If a single build has 50% winrate, then there is no reason to not ever play it, unless you have a build that is better. But I don't think this particular build is that strong  | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
On May 06 2012 04:01 drbrown wrote: Queen change is nice, now they cant be kited by hellions and marines Which is massive change in the wrong direction T_T. On May 06 2012 04:11 Big J wrote: well, if it was really 50% winrate, I would have a huge problem with it. If a single build has 50% winrate, then there is no reason to not ever play it, unless you have a build that is better. But I don't think this particular build is that strong That makes no sense, and obviously 50% was an estimate, I could be very off. Could you care to elaborate? The build relies on not being scouted to work, unless you're on a map like Metalopolis with a wide open nat, where it's strong regardless. | ||
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DooMDash
United States1015 Posts
I think this is the worst purposed changed Blizzard has ever done ( that I recall ). | ||
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FabledIntegral
United States9232 Posts
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convention
United States622 Posts
On May 06 2012 04:27 FabledIntegral wrote: Which is massive change in the wrong direction T_T. That makes no sense, and obviously 50% was an estimate, I could be very off. Could you care to elaborate? The build relies on not being scouted to work, unless you're on a map like Metalopolis with a wide open nat, where it's strong regardless. If an all-in has only a 50% win rate when it is unscouted, then no one would ever do it. | ||
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Xapti
Canada2473 Posts
On May 06 2012 04:33 convention wrote: If an all-in has only a 50% win rate when it is unscouted, then no one would ever do it. No. All-in builds are useful because they give lower skill level players a higher chance of winning. Their chances of winning could be down around 10-40% without doing an all-in tactic. That said, it is probably somewhat higher than 50% though. Thing is, there are so many variables when dealing with percentages — the map, the specific all-in, when it's noticed, how good the player is at the all-in, how good the players are in general, etc.. It's pretty much impossible to just take the "average" of all of those values I would actually agree that they are overpowered. You just need to understand what overpowered is, or at least the definition of the person saying it. Thors can be countered at high level play in a fashion that makes them nothing special, but that dosen't instantly mean that they aren't overpowered. Thors can be very hard to counter at lower levels if the opponent just masses them, generally with some hellion support or even tank support, and gets 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades. I've seen this strategy used effectively at masters level, or even professional play. I'm not saying it can't be countered, but it's not simple (unless they clump all the thors into a little ball). | ||
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blade55555
United States17423 Posts
On May 06 2012 04:32 FabledIntegral wrote: If Blizz really wants to make Zerg better vs allins, then just lower the build time of spine crawlers, pfft. Yeah I would rather faster spine crawler build time then the queen range increase  . | ||
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