Hellion openers are not currently overpowered. There are no top Zergs complaining about them nor losing consistently to them.
Holy shit did we just agree on something?
The opener itself isn't overpowered. The transition to Hellion/Banshee/Marine all-in or Hellion/Marauder all-in is hard to see coming, and WILL kill you unless you have the appropriate static defenses....which is why Blizz is giving zerg better overlord speed.
I dont think Ive ever even seen this follow up... can you post a replay?
Hellion/Marauder is fairly common
It's done plenty of times in the GSL DRG almost died to sC doing this (GSL 2012 S1 Code S R32)...he only lived because he was DRG the timing hits at 9 minutes.
There are also tons of variations on the Hellion/Banshee allin I consider this an all in because if scouted, the zerg just throws down spines/spores and make mutas and you lose.
Many Terran these days usually transition out of this into marinetank/Thor to deal with the muta/lings. Point is, it still exists today as Hellion into 2portbanshee.
How about zerg just starts with 80 drones and three hatches and we play catch up? Apparently that is what they want
That's what they are getting. Terran, the race that is 30% less than zerg in ladder and that has no single foreigner that won any tournament but 1, is not being buffed, but zerg and toss, the races with most representation on ladder, aare being buffed. Seems legit.
If terran are so UP how come it only took you less than a month to get from being a struggling low plat to having two masters accounts? Hmmm?
Dear sir. I am a low platinum terran player in EU server. I have trouble against protoss and zerg players. I feel I can't do anything unless my opponent is in absolutely terrible shape and messes up totally.
For example, in the game, if I was the toss, I could have won the game easily on many occasions.
I won only cause he did not macro properly and did not scout properly. However, I would want to know where in the game could I have done better in order not to rely on my opponent's mistakes.
I have 2 master terran accounts, both in EU, not in NA, which is kinda different. And I feel that the game is heavily imbalanced in favor of zerg and toss.
Hi, i wanted to make a post about the current terran TvZ openings that aren't "reliant" but benefit a lot from queens having 3 (is it 3 currently?) range.
1. Reaper openings that make more than 1 reaper and transition into heavier harassment.
An example would be 2 reapers+hellions into banshees (hellions not reactored, just off a naked fact) This is a very all in build and queen range would make it pretty much impossible to do dmg to the mineral line. I have tested this with a friend and 1 queen sitting in the middle of zergs mineral line can reach hellions that are poking from the gas geyser to shoot drones. 1 queen can defend a full mineral line.
2. Reaper FE or MMA's reaper double FE.
This build is 100% reliant on scouting a roach warren if one exists.Terrans can no longer "safely" poke in with their reaper and figure out what structures zerg has. It's now more of a risk from Terran to poke in with reapers, suicidal at a high level most likely.
3. 11/11 2rax.
This build is focused on kiting zerglings and setting a bunker by the zerg natural. With this change to queen range, marines who are currently slower than queens on creep, will no longer be able to kite queens, even if both units are off creep. this means that Terran will lose life on his marines trying to kill a queen no matter what every game. 45 hp and 8 dps for 50 mins. Queen costs 150 mins, has 175 life, equal range now to the marine. I'm not sure about DPS, but when your macro mechanic is cost effecive in killing my extremely all in aggression units i think that's bad game design. There is now no purpose in 2 rax other than a free win on entombed i guess.. (which all zergs will veto on ladder an in tournament anyways..)
4. Hellion banshee triple OC (ogsForGG)
This build is focused on kiting queens/lings with hellions and preventing zergs 3rd base from going up as long as possible. With this new change, hellions will no longer be able to kite queens and will now have to trade hitpoints with the queens to do dmg. With hellion's whopping 8 damage per second and a map full of speedlings, i don't see how this already vulnerable, finnicky tvz opening will ever survive counter aggression once your units are killed or forced to return home
To me this is a disappointing change, no i don't only play terran. My problem with this is it limits terran to a ridiculously small amount of BO's to choose from (siege tank marine double expand anyone?.... everygame?) and zerg the ability to drone even harder in a metagame that is all about 2 base aggression or insane greed from zerg. it's really difficult to scout as terran (i promise, scan isn't shit, you can't scan the whole map, they always hide lings, 2 base zvt all ins are extremely underrated as players like DRG and violet have show us)
On May 06 2012 01:41 Decendos wrote: this has become a whine thread thx to teamhozac and sieksdekciw who wont stop writing false facts, ignoring arguments and obviously have no idea of the game....
Hey laddie. I have now 3 ! Masters accounts as terran, one as toss and one az zerg. I play constantly, day and night. How much more should I understand from the game? Where are the facts? Terran made hellions to deny creep spread, until YOU do something as zerg to regain map control, hellions gonna be there. But to have a unit like the queen that you would get ANYWAY to be able to chase the hellions away IS JUST PLAIN WRONG. Cause you did not invest in anything, and the terran invested in hellions. So, you feel that it's unfair? Or?
How can I explain it to you.
You want the zerg to do nothing special to counter a strat that terran specially does to prevent creep spread? You want maybe your drones to have an aura that damages nearby hellions so they dont bother you? How do you think terran feels when there is a bunch of lings in front of his base, there is no getting out with anything other than hellions and there is no scouting possibilities cause every time you scan, you get 300 minerals behind the zerg? Do we complain about that?
This thread is just a thread where zergies try to defend the ridiculous changes of the to be patch. What a joke.
On May 06 2012 01:51 c0sm0naut wrote: Hi, i wanted to make a post about the current terran TvZ openings that aren't "reliant" but benefit a lot from queens having 3 (is it 3 currently?) range.
1. Reaper openings that make more than 1 reaper and transition into heavier harassment.
An example would be 2 reapers+hellions into banshees (hellions not reactored, just off a naked fact) This is a very all in build and queen range would make it pretty much impossible to do dmg to the mineral line. I have tested this with a friend and 1 queen sitting in the middle of zergs mineral line can reach hellions that are poking from the gas geyser to shoot drones. 1 queen can defend a full mineral line.
2. Reaper FE or MMA's reaper double FE.
This build is 100% reliant on scouting a roach warren if one exists.Terrans can no longer "safely" poke in with their reaper and figure out what structures zerg has. It's now more of a risk from Terran to poke in with reapers, suicidal at a high level most likely.
3. 11/11 2rax.
This build is focused on kiting zerglings and setting a bunker by the zerg natural. With this change to queen range, marines who are currently slower than queens on creep, will no longer be able to kite queens, even if both units are off creep. this means that Terran will lose life on his marines trying to kill a queen no matter what every game. 45 hp and 8 dps for 50 mins. Queen costs 150 mins, has 175 life, equal range now to the marine. I'm not sure about DPS, but when your macro mechanic is cost effecive in killing my extremely all in aggression units i think that's bad game design. There is now no purpose in 2 rax other than a free win on entombed i guess.. (which all zergs will veto on ladder an in tournament anyways..)
4. Hellion banshee triple OC (ogsForGG)
This build is focused on kiting queens/lings with hellions and preventing zergs 3rd base from going up as long as possible. With this new change, hellions will no longer be able to kite queens and will now have to trade hitpoints with the queens to do dmg. With hellion's whopping 8 damage per second and a map full of speedlings, i don't see how this already vulnerable, finnicky tvz opening will ever survive counter aggression once your units are killed or forced to return home
To me this is a disappointing change, no i don't only play terran. My problem with this is it limits terran to a ridiculously small amount of BO's to choose from (siege tank marine double expand anyone?.... everygame?) and zerg the ability to drone even harder in a metagame that is all about 2 base aggression or insane greed from zerg. it's really difficult to scout as terran (i promise, scan isn't shit, you can't scan the whole map, they always hide lings, 2 base zvt all ins are extremely underrated as players like DRG and violet have show us)
my 2c
Are you seriously complaining that Terrans will lack openings? Exactly how many openings do Zergs have compared to Terrans?
I should remind you that most pros do not use hellions as runby, they use them to control the creep and keep the zerg from taking an early third. In such cases, direct battle with Queens are unlikely.
I should remind you that most pros do not use hellions as runby, they use them to control the creep and keep the zerg from taking an early third. In such cases, direct battle with Queens are unlikely.
But the queen will just chase them ALONE. You get it? Cause the queen now will have the same range as them so you don't benefit from micro. A single queen will JUST chase them friggin away, or at least be able to defend the nearby creep. How is this friggin balanced. No micro possibility vs a unit that is just plain BEEFY.
On May 06 2012 01:41 Decendos wrote: this has become a whine thread thx to teamhozac and sieksdekciw who wont stop writing false facts, ignoring arguments and obviously have no idea of the game....
Hey laddie. I have now 3 ! Masters accounts as terran, one as toss and one az zerg. I play constantly, day and night. How much more should I understand from the game? Where are the facts? Terran made hellions to deny creep spread, until YOU do something as zerg to regain map control, hellions gonna be there. But to have a unit like the queen that you would get ANYWAY to be able to chase the hellions away IS JUST PLAIN WRONG. Cause you did not invest in anything, and the terran invested in hellions. So, you feel that it's unfair? Or?
How can I explain it to you.
You want the zerg to do nothing special to counter a strat that terran specially does to prevent creep spread? You want maybe your drones to have an aura that damages nearby hellions so they dont bother you? How do you think terran feels when there is a bunch of lings in front of his base, there is no getting out with anything other than hellions and there is no scouting possibilities cause every time you scan, you get 300 minerals behind the zerg? Do we complain about that?
This thread is just a thread where zergies try to defend the ridiculous changes of the to be patch. What a joke.
I would not called it ridiculous change until the queen is properly tested and Blizzard stated the reason why queen needed 5 range.
Its dumb of you to say that all zergs share the same opinion in defending the changes of the patch. Grow up.
On May 06 2012 01:41 Decendos wrote: this has become a whine thread thx to teamhozac and sieksdekciw who wont stop writing false facts, ignoring arguments and obviously have no idea of the game....
Hey laddie. I have now 3 ! Masters accounts as terran, one as toss and one az zerg. I play constantly, day and night. How much more should I understand from the game? Where are the facts? Terran made hellions to deny creep spread, until YOU do something as zerg to regain map control, hellions gonna be there. But to have a unit like the queen that you would get ANYWAY to be able to chase the hellions away IS JUST PLAIN WRONG. Cause you did not invest in anything, and the terran invested in hellions. So, you feel that it's unfair? Or?
How can I explain it to you.
You want the zerg to do nothing special to counter a strat that terran specially does to prevent creep spread? You want maybe your drones to have an aura that damages nearby hellions so they dont bother you? How do you think terran feels when there is a bunch of lings in front of his base, there is no getting out with anything other than hellions and there is no scouting possibilities cause every time you scan, you get 300 minerals behind the zerg? Do we complain about that?
This thread is just a thread where zergies try to defend the ridiculous changes of the to be patch. What a joke.
rofl you started talking bullshit like zerg can produce 3 or 8 times the amount of worker as terran and stuff like that. terran income after 1 rax FE is AT LEAST even to zerg.
then now you tell me that zerg builds queens anyway. right now 1 (!!!!) extra queen is standard if you take lingspeed. even with 5 range you wont be able to kill a single helion.
btw queens with range 3 are absolutely fine. only thing zerg needs is the ovispeedbuff.
On May 05 2012 23:41 latan wrote: I don't like those 'balance the game at the highest level arguments' because the game stills needs to be fun for people who don't have the time to "learn to play".
you need to have a lot better control to stop a stupid hellion runby than you need to do it without losing too much. even pros die to a random mass hellion runby every once in a while. it has not been YEARS (lol) since the hellion nerf, not to mention the release of stacraft 2.
I do think zerg could use a bit of help in taking some stress out of the very early game.
Yeah you just suck, pretty much. If you die to hellion run bys you seriously, need to learn to play. An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it. If you really feel that zerg needs a buff once again, you need to learn to play. Make a roach warren ffs, these constant buffs and nerfs are just stupid. Remember how everyone was whining about the 1/1/1? Guess what? They figured it out, due to bigger maps, player innovation, whatever, it got figured out. YOU DO NOT NEED A BUFF TO DEAL WITH HELLIONS /rant
Yeah Morrow, did you hear that. Why didn't you just build a queen, a spine and an evo chamber vs Maru. Wait you had that stuff? You even had 3 queens and zerglings and died? I guess you should take lessons by teamhozac, who is clearly a superior player to you.
You are probably the most biased, uninformed retard on this forum. you chose to read what you wanted to read, roaches. Yep thats it, one word: roaches. Those are the solution to hellions, but for some reason zerg feels like they need an easier option to deal wit hhellions, which they dont. So some pro lost ONE game to hellions? oh they must be OP? get a fucking life
Hey, nice that for once I get a reply from you, as you have yet chosen to avoid any form of discussion if I replied to one of your wrong comments. And I don't choose to read what I want to read. Did or didn't you write "An evo chamber, a spine, and a queen shut down any hellion play, thats it."? You did, and apparently that is wrong, because I brought you a counterexample (basic logic).
I didn't say anything about roaches, because I don't think you are wrong with it. Defensive Roaches are good vs hellions and even if it weren't for roaches, I don't think hellions are overpowered and I already wrote that I'm not sure if this buff is necessary, though I also think it won't change that much. I however do believe, that roaches are not the "the solution", because relying on them still keeps you weak against a variety of rushes (marauders) and slows down your tech, which then again forces you to go for some zergling/roach build early on, instead of early mutas or infestors. True, if you play this style no matter what like stephano does, you are really well off with roaches vs hellions. For any other style, I don't really see them working because you will not have the gas for speed+lair+some infestors/mutas at 10-11min, so you either die to marauders and maybe even banshees or you are forced to stay roach/ling (+upgrades) on lowtech. Also hellions can runby against roaches, so you still need a bunch of extra investments (speed, zerglings) to really be safe against possible mass hellion (1-2factory) variations, which you can't really scout.
Once again, why does the most balanced matchup in the game need any changes? When have hellions EVER been a problem? Blue flame was already nerfed, it requires a factory to get them, I dont even know what else to say. All I hear is "blah blah blah I dont want to get roaches and oh no he might run past my queen and kill some drones." Well guess what, theres a thing called risk/reward and if you take too much of a risk (not making roahces/spines) and somebody decides to kamakazi ten hellions into your drone line, well guess what? you deserve to lose... are we done here?
Once again, I don't think the queen change is necessary, nor do I think it will change anything big time. They might as well cut it.
And you aribitrarily calling TvZ "the most" balanced MU, doesn't make it so.
Of course there is something called risk/reward. Building mass drones is not a risk/reward scenario, it's what you have to do do compete with Terran 3CC openings.
Where to start? It is widely accepted that TvZ is a balanced MU, or at least it was until he snipe nerf. Not that I give a shit about Blizzards propaganda but they did come out and say that TvZ was 50% soooo.... yep. And you are basing your argument on the ASSUMPTION that every Terran player goes 3 CC? Not very failproof...
Oh plz, just because you post stuff, doesn't make it true. I mean, I can also go to your niveau: "it is widely accepted, that TvZ is a broken MU". Well, I won't really say it, because I don't think it is really broken and that's why I'm saying that I'm not sure why the queen buff is needed (while I'm still saying, that I don't think - from as far as I have tested it - it will change a lot at all. Just tweak winrates of certain allins by up to 5%)
And I'm not gonna comment on the 3CC thing, as you have stated that every zerg should just open roach. Not really fair of you, to tell zergs that they are only allowed to do one opening, but when I say that there is a Terran opening that is just as economical as zerg openings, you tell me that not everyone wants to play like that.
On May 06 2012 01:51 c0sm0naut wrote: Hi, i wanted to make a post about the current terran TvZ openings that aren't "reliant" but benefit a lot from queens having 3 (is it 3 currently?) range.
1. Reaper openings that make more than 1 reaper and transition into heavier harassment.
An example would be 2 reapers+hellions into banshees (hellions not reactored, just off a naked fact) This is a very all in build and queen range would make it pretty much impossible to do dmg to the mineral line. I have tested this with a friend and 1 queen sitting in the middle of zergs mineral line can reach hellions that are poking from the gas geyser to shoot drones. 1 queen can defend a full mineral line.
2. Reaper FE or MMA's reaper double FE.
This build is 100% reliant on scouting a roach warren if one exists.Terrans can no longer "safely" poke in with their reaper and figure out what structures zerg has. It's now more of a risk from Terran to poke in with reapers, suicidal at a high level most likely.
3. 11/11 2rax.
This build is focused on kiting zerglings and setting a bunker by the zerg natural. With this change to queen range, marines who are currently slower than queens on creep, will no longer be able to kite queens, even if both units are off creep. this means that Terran will lose life on his marines trying to kill a queen no matter what every game. 45 hp and 8 dps for 50 mins. Queen costs 150 mins, has 175 life, equal range now to the marine. I'm not sure about DPS, but when your macro mechanic is cost effecive in killing my extremely all in aggression units i think that's bad game design. There is now no purpose in 2 rax other than a free win on entombed i guess.. (which all zergs will veto on ladder an in tournament anyways..)
4. Hellion banshee triple OC (ogsForGG)
This build is focused on kiting queens/lings with hellions and preventing zergs 3rd base from going up as long as possible. With this new change, hellions will no longer be able to kite queens and will now have to trade hitpoints with the queens to do dmg. With hellion's whopping 8 damage per second and a map full of speedlings, i don't see how this already vulnerable, finnicky tvz opening will ever survive counter aggression once your units are killed or forced to return home
To me this is a disappointing change, no i don't only play terran. My problem with this is it limits terran to a ridiculously small amount of BO's to choose from (siege tank marine double expand anyone?.... everygame?) and zerg the ability to drone even harder in a metagame that is all about 2 base aggression or insane greed from zerg. it's really difficult to scout as terran (i promise, scan isn't shit, you can't scan the whole map, they always hide lings, 2 base zvt all ins are extremely underrated as players like DRG and violet have show us)
my 2c
Are you seriously complaining that Terrans will lack openings? Exactly how many openings do Zergs have compared to Terrans?
I should remind you that most pros do not use hellions as runby, they use them to control the creep and keep the zerg from taking an early third. In such cases, direct battle with Queens are unlikely.
Zerg should not be focusing on trying to win or do damage in the early game though? they are 100x stronger in the late game with the tier 3 unit composition of ultra/infestor/bl/corrupter. Their targets for the early game should always be to take minimal losses so that they have an advantage in the late game. Whereas if you look at it from the terran's perspective we have to do damage in order to have any sort of advantage going into the late game so your point is completely void since essentially the intentions of both races are the complete opposite.
If anything this will force more Terrans to do 12-14 2 rax expand and FORCE lings so they can be even. I am learning that right now and it's definitely not the easily build to do, it is extremely fragile. If you do 1 think wrong a ling/bane counter can straight up kill you.
Earlier observer is really useful in PvT I feel against all the one base variations terran can go. Getting the observer 10 seconds earlier is really a life saver!
I like all the changes, the queen range increase will really help earlygame and queens wont go running after units 24/7 only to get sniped, queens will also be able to kill pylons much ezir when some1 is cannon rushing or something like that.
The overlord change will be a really big help in all mu's, in ZvZ it can be very hard to scout earlygame and you might just die to some all-in or get behind beacuse your opponent is going for a really greedy build.
On May 06 2012 02:10 Debian wrote: If anything this will force more Terrans to do 12-14 2 rax expand and FORCE lings so they can be even. I am learning that right now and it's definitely not the easily build to do, it is extremely fragile. If you do 1 think wrong a ling/bane counter can straight up kill you.
You are wrong.1 Rax FE will be more popular if this change goes through. 12/14 rax is easily denied if zergs pull couple of drones and build the magic number of 8 lings to stop 2 rax. Then you are behind.
But hellions opening will still be viable since they are needed to control creep spread,grant map control, scout, deny third base.
On May 06 2012 01:51 c0sm0naut wrote: Hi, i wanted to make a post about the current terran TvZ openings that aren't "reliant" but benefit a lot from queens having 3 (is it 3 currently?) range.
1. Reaper openings that make more than 1 reaper and transition into heavier harassment.
An example would be 2 reapers+hellions into banshees (hellions not reactored, just off a naked fact) This is a very all in build and queen range would make it pretty much impossible to do dmg to the mineral line. I have tested this with a friend and 1 queen sitting in the middle of zergs mineral line can reach hellions that are poking from the gas geyser to shoot drones. 1 queen can defend a full mineral line.
2. Reaper FE or MMA's reaper double FE.
This build is 100% reliant on scouting a roach warren if one exists.Terrans can no longer "safely" poke in with their reaper and figure out what structures zerg has. It's now more of a risk from Terran to poke in with reapers, suicidal at a high level most likely.
3. 11/11 2rax.
This build is focused on kiting zerglings and setting a bunker by the zerg natural. With this change to queen range, marines who are currently slower than queens on creep, will no longer be able to kite queens, even if both units are off creep. this means that Terran will lose life on his marines trying to kill a queen no matter what every game. 45 hp and 8 dps for 50 mins. Queen costs 150 mins, has 175 life, equal range now to the marine. I'm not sure about DPS, but when your macro mechanic is cost effecive in killing my extremely all in aggression units i think that's bad game design. There is now no purpose in 2 rax other than a free win on entombed i guess.. (which all zergs will veto on ladder an in tournament anyways..)
4. Hellion banshee triple OC (ogsForGG)
This build is focused on kiting queens/lings with hellions and preventing zergs 3rd base from going up as long as possible. With this new change, hellions will no longer be able to kite queens and will now have to trade hitpoints with the queens to do dmg. With hellion's whopping 8 damage per second and a map full of speedlings, i don't see how this already vulnerable, finnicky tvz opening will ever survive counter aggression once your units are killed or forced to return home
To me this is a disappointing change, no i don't only play terran. My problem with this is it limits terran to a ridiculously small amount of BO's to choose from (siege tank marine double expand anyone?.... everygame?) and zerg the ability to drone even harder in a metagame that is all about 2 base aggression or insane greed from zerg. it's really difficult to scout as terran (i promise, scan isn't shit, you can't scan the whole map, they always hide lings, 2 base zvt all ins are extremely underrated as players like DRG and violet have show us)
my 2c
Are you seriously complaining that Terrans will lack openings? Exactly how many openings do Zergs have compared to Terrans?
I should remind you that most pros do not use hellions as runby, they use them to control the creep and keep the zerg from taking an early third. In such cases, direct battle with Queens are unlikely.
Yes, i am "seriously" complaining that terran will lack openings because these are currently some of the most popular openings for Terran.
Do you want to see hellion expand every game? More than we already tend to see it every game? Your generalization about "most pros" is wrong too, many pros runby with hellions. It's a game sense sort of thing, you don't do it if you're not sure it's a good choice or not. This takes that option away from terran, or at least makes it measureably harder. I don't really think you have a point here.
Direct battles with the queen and hellions almost always happen in high level tvz when zerg is trying to take their third. Terran will try to deny it as long as possible with hellions/banshees/etc units that can get away.
What does everyone think will be the impact of the queen range buff on stargate openings in PvZ? I'm not sure how much of a change it will add. While the queens will more easily be able to stay under spores, I think that the mobiltity of air units will still allow protoss to cycle their air units (they just might have to cycle a little bit sooner to get out of the range of the queen a little bit sooner).
On May 06 2012 02:15 convention wrote: What does everyone think will be the impact of the queen range buff on stargate openings in PvZ? I'm not sure how much of a change it will add. While the queens will more easily be able to stay under spores, I think that the mobiltity of air units will still allow protoss to cycle their air units (they just might have to cycle a little bit sooner to get out of the range of the queen a little bit sooner).
EPT
