|
On May 06 2012 01:44 ETisME wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread. And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining. By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats. What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units. It's much more than just denying creep spread. It delays early 3rd, it prevents ling poking, it deny creep spread, it forces zerg to either get a lot of lings (a lot to deal with good micro'd hellions) or roaches (you are getting a roach warren and a few roaches, just so that you can deny the hellions and grab map control. you cannot rely on roaches in later stage of the game) You CANNOT drone safely because of the massive variety of transition the terran can do, different kind of all-in, double expo etc. It is still very similar to pre patch, queens cannot deny hellions all the way out from creep, but now it can push them out easier to sneak lings out.
that's the whole point of getting hellions... what, zerg should be able to sit in their base and make 100 drones and not care anything about what terran does?
|
On May 06 2012 04:34 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 20:42 teamhozac wrote:On May 04 2012 15:52 Wes-Palladini wrote:On May 03 2012 09:01 Jumbled wrote:On May 03 2012 08:57 Toppp wrote:
Pretty sad that they arent in touch with terrans current place.. I feel like they just took those complaints straight from the Battle.net forums.. 50 energy starting queen isn't taking into account late game creep spread which will be godlike and all queens will have a massive useless pileup of energy that will be spent mostly on pure creep tumors, which in return will have everyones creeps pread looking like seals.. In most games, creep spread actually tends to peak around the late midgame. Beyond that, P and T have enough detection and damage wandering around that it becomes hard for Zergs to push the creep out further unless they're really dominating. Agree, adding more starting energy to get an earlier creep tumor is going to do very little for zerg in ZvT. The first 2 hellions will just kill it like usual. Increasing overlord speed is a good idea or please just fix Korhal Compound. As it is right now Terran can get 2 marines out to kill the first overlord before it makes it safely behind the enemies natural. I still think Thors are OP. Too easy for Terran to pump them off of 2 bases, A attack into any zerg composition and just stomp. Please reduce contaminate cost on overseers so at least zerg has a chance to delay thors from coming out. I cant remember the last time I even saw a pro use contaminate. Thor OP? lol youve got to be kidding right? I would actually agree that they are overpowered. You just need to understand what overpowered is, or at least the definition of the person saying it. Thors can be countered at high level play in a fashion that makes them nothing special, but that dosen't instantly mean that they aren't overpowered. Thors can be very hard to counter at lower levels if the opponent just masses them, generally with some hellion support or even tank support, and gets 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades. I've seen this strategy used effectively at masters level, or even professional play. I'm not saying it can't be countered, but it's not simple (unless they clump all the thors into a little ball).
Oh wow...
|
On May 06 2012 04:33 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 04:27 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 06 2012 04:01 drbrown wrote:
Queen change is nice, now they cant be kited by hellions and marines Which is massive change in the wrong direction T_T. On May 06 2012 04:11 Big J wrote:On May 06 2012 03:58 FabledIntegral wrote:On May 06 2012 03:56 archonOOid wrote:
Just saw MMA do an maruader/hellion/scv allin in the iron squid tournament, the increased ranged attack will help zergs to keep the queens alive longer in those kind of battles. It's an allin that's held nearly 50% of the time, and will be held if Zerg scouts it usually. I don't see an issue with that build TOO much, tbh. well, if it was really 50% winrate, I would have a huge problem with it. If a single build has 50% winrate, then there is no reason to not ever play it, unless you have a build that is better. But I don't think this particular build is that strong  That makes no sense, and obviously 50% was an estimate, I could be very off. Could you care to elaborate? The build relies on not being scouted to work, unless you're on a map like Metalopolis with a wide open nat, where it's strong regardless. If an all-in has only a 50% win rate when it is unscouted, then no one would ever do it.
I never said it has a 50% win rate when unscouted, I said overall. And as I said prior, 50% was a very rough estimate, I could very well be off.
|
On May 06 2012 04:35 rauk wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 01:44 ETisME wrote:On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread. And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining. By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats. What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units. It's much more than just denying creep spread. It delays early 3rd, it prevents ling poking, it deny creep spread, it forces zerg to either get a lot of lings (a lot to deal with good micro'd hellions) or roaches (you are getting a roach warren and a few roaches, just so that you can deny the hellions and grab map control. you cannot rely on roaches in later stage of the game) You CANNOT drone safely because of the massive variety of transition the terran can do, different kind of all-in, double expo etc. It is still very similar to pre patch, queens cannot deny hellions all the way out from creep, but now it can push them out easier to sneak lings out. that's the whole point of getting hellions... what, zerg should be able to sit in their base and make 100 drones and not care anything about what terran does?
Problem is that terran isn't punished enough for going hellions, due to how overly cheap they are to make. And when factoring in how much damage they inflict to zerg early game units (and indirect damage through forcing the zerg into playing defensive aswell as limiting scouting greatly) it's really a no-brainer to open with helions. Problem is that for zerg there's not much to gain for holding off the hellion-harass as terran is able to enter mid-game barely dented economically, again due to how cheap helions are to produce. If anything, the zerg is probably behind due to either being forced to make roaches (which are now all but useless) or due to the economical damage the helions inflicted.
The potential damage hellions are able to inflict, combined with how overly cheap they are to make, notably skews the risk/reward ratio of helion openers.
|
On May 06 2012 05:05 Creem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 04:35 rauk wrote:On May 06 2012 01:44 ETisME wrote:On May 06 2012 01:32 sieksdekciw wrote:
Zerg cannot commit to roaches without severe drawbacks to their mutaproduction, which is of critical importance past early game to prevent drops. So if the terran isn't comitting to hellions (i.e "only" 5-6 helions and no blueflame)
Rubbish. Pure rubish. Why is terran committing to 4-6 hellions; to prevent creep spreading. Otherwise terran could have done double upgrades, medivacs or some shit. Terran hopes to prevent the stupid map being full of creep spread. And you want having queens and zerglings to be enough to chase away the hellions (which, sadly, sometimes is enough)? You don't wanna make 1 or two roaches to chase the hellions away? What do you want? To be left alone to drone and creep spread until minute 16 without YOU committing to anything else than your desired composition? I have news for you, nancy, if terran had the money to spend on 4-6 hellions, you sure as hell have the money to spend them on a roach or two. Quit whining. By the way, about scouting. Having the fastest unit in the game, the zergling, is not enough for you to scout? Having your supply all over the map with vision on expo timings, gas timings and army movement AND the ability to block expansions for 30 seconds is not enough? Having the whole map with vision by creep tumors AND giving your units speed boost is not enough? You, sir, are a hypocrite, in the finest tradition of zerg players like Idra. Congrats. What I really want is Blizzard to carry on with the changes. I really do. Then increase build time of rax and make it require engi bay. Then you would be able to drone till minute 30 and you don't have to make any units. It's much more than just denying creep spread. It delays early 3rd, it prevents ling poking, it deny creep spread, it forces zerg to either get a lot of lings (a lot to deal with good micro'd hellions) or roaches (you are getting a roach warren and a few roaches, just so that you can deny the hellions and grab map control. you cannot rely on roaches in later stage of the game) You CANNOT drone safely because of the massive variety of transition the terran can do, different kind of all-in, double expo etc. It is still very similar to pre patch, queens cannot deny hellions all the way out from creep, but now it can push them out easier to sneak lings out. that's the whole point of getting hellions... what, zerg should be able to sit in their base and make 100 drones and not care anything about what terran does? Problem is that terran isn't punished enough for going hellions, due to how overly cheap they are to make. And when factoring in how much damage they inflict to zerg early game units (and indirect damage through forcing the zerg into playing defensive aswell as limiting scouting greatly) it's really a no-brainer to open with helions. Problem is that for zerg there's not much to gain for holding off the hellion-harass as terran is able to enter mid-game barely dented economically, again due to how cheap helions are to produce. If anything, the zerg is probably behind due to either being forced to make roaches (which are now all but useless) or due to the economical damage the helions inflicted. The potential damage hellions are able to inflict, combined with how overly cheap they are to make, notably skews the risk/reward ratio of helion openers.
And yet Terrans aren't dominating TvZ by any stretch of the imagination. The problems with Z winrate have been, by far, related to the PvZ matchup. That "potential" damage Terrans can do actually IS mitigated by the innate structure of Terran, to be behind on economy until bases are even and saturated.
|
]I would actually agree that they are overpowered. You just need to understand what overpowered is, or at least the definition of the person saying it. Thors can be countered at high level play in a fashion that makes them nothing special, but that dosen't instantly mean that they aren't overpowered. Thors can be very hard to counter at lower levels if the opponent just masses them, generally with some hellion support or even tank support, and gets 2-2 or 3-3 upgrades. I've seen this strategy used effectively at masters level, or even professional play. I'm not saying it can't be countered, but it's not simple (unless they clump all the thors into a little ball).
Ahahahahah. Funniest thing I have read since Catch 22.
|
the fixes do seem better after the recent change. P v Z isn't completely wrecked I guess.
I don't know what P will do vs Stephano build if whatever all in or expand build is seen.
Unlike other match ups Zerg can counter any Protoss build. Protoss can't counter the stephano build with X.
|
does anyone remember when both zealot and phoenix build times were significantly cut
we cant have that happen again
|
On May 06 2012 05:35 sieksdekciw wrote:
Ahahahahah. Funniest thing I have read since Catch 22.
Explain why.
I'm not saying it's a big problem or anything, but the issue is there for certain player groups. It's an imbalance of skill required to win. It's nothing major, but it's there. The same thing exists with void rays. Also the biggest thing this influences is team games, not 1v1s.
|
On May 06 2012 07:10 Xapti wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 05:35 sieksdekciw wrote:
Ahahahahah. Funniest thing I have read since Catch 22. Explain why. I'm not saying it's a big problem or anything, but the issue is there for certain player groups. It's an imbalance of skill required to win. It's nothing major, but it's there. The same thing exists with void rays. Also the biggest thing this influences is team games, not 1v1s.
oh come on, this goes for half of the units in the game. Thors and void rays just happen to be able to attack air and ground, but if you just mass broodlords or colossi or immortals or tanks, you will just beat nearly any standard composition, if you go unpunished.
|
On May 06 2012 07:16 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 07:10 Xapti wrote:On May 06 2012 05:35 sieksdekciw wrote:
Ahahahahah. Funniest thing I have read since Catch 22. Explain why. I'm not saying it's a big problem or anything, but the issue is there for certain player groups. It's an imbalance of skill required to win. It's nothing major, but it's there. The same thing exists with void rays. Also the biggest thing this influences is team games, not 1v1s. oh come on, this goes for half of the units in the game. Thors and void rays just happen to be able to attack air and ground, but if you just mass broodlords or colossi or immortals or tanks, you will just beat nearly any standard composition, if you go unpunished.
Yes it has a lot to do with attacking both air and ground. But that's not all of it
The thing is broodlords and colossus and immortals and siege tanks are much more easily counterable and REQUIRE additional units supporting them, as opposed to being beneficial with other units supporting them.
In fact immortals have problems with a ton of units, even the units they're supposed to counter (thors, roaches), so it's really ridiculous to even mention them on there because they're pretty much exclusively a support unit.
Units like thors and void rays are not as easily countered by even their supposed/assumed counters in the right circumstances. Take for example void rays vs hydralisks. Hydralisks will lose the fight when supply is the limiting factor
|
On May 05 2012 22:04 Markwerf wrote:
queen change sounds good. Makes pushing out and defending against hellions a whole lot better and improves them slightly against other pushes. It hardly matters against stuff like bunker rushes, 7 gates etc so shouldn't be too troublesome.
I am slightly worried the queen range could be abused for some offensive pushes though. Queen at range 5 means they can kill walloffs from protoss without the cannons being able to hit them.
For example against FFE into stargate I can see nydus with queen + lings be really strong now. Get a mass of 6 or so queens, nydus just outside of the FFE and stream lings through it nonstop. Queens decimate air, can pick off the wall without being hit (they do same DPS as a roach, not much but enough to kill wall) and are just good in combat with transfuse.
For combat queens dominate hydra's now. Same range, much better combat stats (more then half hydra dps but more then double hitpoints and no bonusses agians them) plus good abilities in transfuse. Just proxy hatch into queens or slow overlord queen drops might actually be doing something now because the queen on creep is a damn efficient unit now.
I'll think they'll settle on 4 range in the end anyway. They have to completely revamp the reaper by now though that unit is becoming more terrible every patch there is, the rise of the forge FE in PvT is basically a result of it being safe that noone will open reaper as well.
Don't forget that late game army. Not only can queens transfuse Brood lords, but now they can be an active presence behind roaches, and the ability of a full energy queen to make transfusions makes it super cost efficient.
The reaper will have no utility anymore as far as I can see. As someone who has refined a reaper FE build v. Zerg, I'm going to once again scrap my build and move on to the standard TvZ.
In what way is the increased ground attack of the queen supposed to help Zerg with lack of early scouting options?
|
On May 06 2012 05:05 Creem wrote:
Problem is that for zerg there's not much to gain for holding off the hellion-harass as terran is able to enter mid-game barely dented economically, again due to how cheap helions are to produce. If anything, the zerg is probably behind due to either being forced to make roaches (which are now all but useless) or due to the economical damage the helions inflicted.
Nerchio makes a lot of roaches in games vs terrans and he can somehow find them useful. Today in the Ironsquid third-place match Nestea also won his game with roach-ling-bling. So I guess they are not that bad after all...
|
On May 06 2012 08:52 scypio wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 05:05 Creem wrote:
Problem is that for zerg there's not much to gain for holding off the hellion-harass as terran is able to enter mid-game barely dented economically, again due to how cheap helions are to produce. If anything, the zerg is probably behind due to either being forced to make roaches (which are now all but useless) or due to the economical damage the helions inflicted. Nerchio makes a lot of roaches in games vs terrans and he can somehow find them useful. Today in the Ironsquid third-place match Nestea also won his game with roach-ling-bling. So I guess they are not that bad after all...
They are terrible because they do not transfer into late game in ZvP and ZvT. If a terran makes marines or protoss makes stalkers which they can do faster than zerg usually gets roach warren, the units are still used as a powerful 3/3 late game unit. However if zerg player decides to keep roaches in late them then they get wrecked by 3/3 marines , upgraded tanks, shredded by colossus and archons, easily split with forcefields.
As you said roach ling bling game from Nestea - That is not your late game unit and I haven't seen the game but I can guaranteed that was not a late game, macro game.
|
Won't it also affect mid and lategame drops? Queens can deal with marines a lot more easier right? MMA is gonna' be in trouble :/
|
On May 06 2012 10:07 Noruxas wrote:
Won't it also affect mid and lategame drops? Queens can deal with marines a lot more easier right? MMA is gonna' be in trouble :/
Against upgraded marines queen range won't do anything, don't worry.
|
Idk man, I like using Polts fast medivac build, and thats before upgrades even start. S:
|
Changing the range of queens from 3 to 5 pretty much kills reaper openings and probably a few others as well. I think that thats such a big change just to fight against the initial 4 hellions because it wont help once it gets more than that. it probably shuts down other early rush strategies as well as making a bunker rush much more difficult. i think it shuts down to many other strategies and doesnt really deal with the issue of hellions, which isnt that much of a threat as it has been around for over a year
|
On May 06 2012 10:01 Lokerek wrote:Show nested quote +On May 06 2012 08:52 scypio wrote:On May 06 2012 05:05 Creem wrote:
Problem is that for zerg there's not much to gain for holding off the hellion-harass as terran is able to enter mid-game barely dented economically, again due to how cheap helions are to produce. If anything, the zerg is probably behind due to either being forced to make roaches (which are now all but useless) or due to the economical damage the helions inflicted. Nerchio makes a lot of roaches in games vs terrans and he can somehow find them useful. Today in the Ironsquid third-place match Nestea also won his game with roach-ling-bling. So I guess they are not that bad after all... They are terrible because they do not transfer into late game in ZvP and ZvT. If a terran makes marines or protoss makes stalkers which they can do faster than zerg usually gets roach warren, the units are still used as a powerful 3/3 late game unit. However if zerg player decides to keep roaches in late them then they get wrecked by 3/3 marines , upgraded tanks, shredded by colossus and archons, easily split with forcefields. As you said roach ling bling game from Nestea - That is not your late game unit and I haven't seen the game but I can guaranteed that was not a late game, macro game.
Stalkers are an awful unit for cost, especially against roaches. And how many protoss players keep enough sentries around for efficient FF versus roaches in the late game.
Stalkers advantages lie in their mobility and ability to shoot both air and ground, not in their ability to win a straight-up fight. This is why Stephano style is so strong, because they can annihilate anything a 2 base protoss throws at them aside from mass immortal (which gimps versus anything apart from roaches) and with roach speed you can force the protoss to engage in a place he doesn't want to, not mentioning that roaches are about half the cost of a stalker and about equal in 1v fights, especially where the toss has to engage straight up (such as defending your (insert expletive of choice here) natural from 125 supply of roaches)
|
On May 06 2012 10:31 mousez wrote:
Changing the range of queens from 3 to 5 pretty much kills reaper openings and probably a few others as well. I think that thats such a big change just to fight against the initial 4 hellions because it wont help once it gets more than that. it probably shuts down other early rush strategies as well as making a bunker rush much more difficult. i think it shuts down to many other strategies and doesnt really deal with the issue of hellions, which isnt that much of a threat as it has been around for over a year
everything sounds fine to me.
blizz making it easy to push back 4 hellions but not many more? isn't that the whole intent??
kill reapers? reapers are kinda already dead. don't neuter a whole race's early game just for your one unit.
shuts down other early rush strategies? hm, might have been what they meant to do.
makes bunker rush more difficult?? LOL. WHAT AN INJUSTICE.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
