|
On May 04 2012 02:02 MNdakota wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:00 mrjpark wrote:On May 04 2012 01:44 Gfire wrote:
Combined with easier scouting, fast air play does seem like it would be pretty useless vs Zerg now. Maybe they need to nerf the Queen's anti-air damage to make up for it? Dear god, please no. They already do 0 damage against ground, their decent attack against air is what keeps us sane. I feel most people have agreed that having queens start with about 35-40 energy would be a sensible compromise. You delay either the creep tumor or the larva inject for your first 25 energy and you don't start out with a transfuse. But, but 35 or 40 energy is such a weird number! It has to be a multiple of 25! 
Yea starting with anything not a multiplier of 25 is stupid since you wont really want to use the creep tumor then anyway and it would fuck so many things up timing wise.
|
On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level.
Whaaaaaaaaat? You only have to build bunkers if you are going to tech or macro. If not, you can forgo them. This is what is sounds like you are saying OMFG PROTOSS SO IMBA!!!!!! I HAVE TO BUILD BUNKER!!! Why do you think bunker is in the game? For defense. Want Protoss to QQ because we have to build cannons to stop drops?
|
On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build.
You're not looking hard enough at Terran builds if you really think that's true. You can tell a lot about gas timing and expansion timing with an initial scout probe and stalker, as long as you know what to look for. After that point, you can tailor your build to their expected strat, while taking precautions to cover any wonky inefficient strats.
|
Don't like any of the changes.
Overlord speed probably has some use for early game scouting, but a good zerg allready has overlords all over the map so it's impossible to properly drop/banshee them without them knowing it 30 seconds in advance. By that time u can easily have a spore crawler up if u are aware of banshee timings.
Queen energy just doesn't feel needed, off course zerg players will like it but I don't see the need of it.
Observer change won't change anything, 10 seconds off no1 cares.
Those changes seem to be made to give protoss and zerg more early game scouting vs Terran but I don't think this is the right way for it. 10 seconds earlier observer won't change a thing and even with increased overlord speed a Terran will have a bunch of marines ready to instantly snipe the overlord.
|
On May 04 2012 02:10 Jakkerr wrote:
Don't like any of the changes.
Overlord speed probably has some use for early game scouting, but a good zerg allready has overlords all over the map so it's impossible to properly drop them without them knowing it 30 seconds in advance.
Queen energy just doesn't feel needed, off course zerg players will like it but I don't see the need of it.
Observer change won't change anything, 10 seconds off no1 cares.
Those changes seem to be made to give protoss and zerg more early game scouting vs Terran but I don't think this is the right way for it. 10 seconds earlier observer won't change a thing and even with increased overlord speed a Terran will have a bunch of marines ready to instantly snipe the overlord.
Overlord speed will change absolutely nothing involving drops.
You are aware the overlord speed change is for SCOUTING TECH right? Overlord placement for drops is extremely simple and speed has never been a factor.
|
On May 04 2012 02:08 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level. Whaaaaaaaaat? You only have to build bunkers if you are going to tech or macro. If not, you can forgo them. This is what is sounds like you are saying OMFG PROTOSS SO IMBA!!!!!! I HAVE TO BUILD BUNKER!!! Why do you think bunker is in the game? For defense. Want Protoss to QQ because we have to build cannons to stop drops?
Protoss usually don't build cannons to stop drops. They build pylons and a correct simcity design to prevent zealots from getting funneled.
|
I'm a Zerg player and I don't like any of the changes. I think the game is pretty balanced. The scouting problem are going to be fixed once people learn to be a bit more aggressive. The queen energy buff is simply ludicrous, way overpowered.
I'm not gonna whine because a buff is a buff and I'd take it but it's unnecessary.
|
On May 04 2012 02:11 PanN wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:10 Jakkerr wrote:
Don't like any of the changes.
Overlord speed probably has some use for early game scouting, but a good zerg allready has overlords all over the map so it's impossible to properly drop them without them knowing it 30 seconds in advance.
Queen energy just doesn't feel needed, off course zerg players will like it but I don't see the need of it.
Observer change won't change anything, 10 seconds off no1 cares.
Those changes seem to be made to give protoss and zerg more early game scouting vs Terran but I don't think this is the right way for it. 10 seconds earlier observer won't change a thing and even with increased overlord speed a Terran will have a bunch of marines ready to instantly snipe the overlord. Overlord speed will change absolutely nothing involving drops. You are aware the overlord speed change is for SCOUTING TECH right? Overlord placement for drops is extremely simple and speed has never been a factor.
I meant that with overlord spread it's pretty easy to spot banshee openers from miles away, in that time u can easily build a spore crawler. All other terran openers can be scouted by sending 2 zerglings to the terran base and check if he's doing factory based or rax based stuff.
|
I am a Zerg, and I think that starting energy for queen with 50 is wayyyyyyy to much. also I think for me overlord speed is ok...
I don't know whats the reason for doing it. scouting seems to be easier for zergs than for terrans and protoss...
|
On May 04 2012 02:09 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build. You're not looking hard enough at Terran builds if you really think that's true. You can tell a lot about gas timing and expansion timing with an initial scout probe and stalker, as long as you know what to look for. After that point, you can tailor your build to their expected strat, while taking precautions to cover any wonky inefficient strats.
What world do you live on? That may be true at GM level, but below that timings mean nothing. You can't expect every Terran to play perfectly, and hit all the timings. And because they don't hit these timings it messes up what we think they are doing. Essentially timings of gas and buildings mean nothing at the lower level because they don't play nearly as perfect as the Pro players.
|
On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build.
There was nothing flawed in my post. You clearly did not understand it.
And your post is full of flaws.
Number 1:
You are not supposed to know every game if your opponent is expanding or not.
This information can be acquired in several ways, but it is also possible for your opponent to try to deny this information.
I can't believe I'm telling you this. Even terran can not always figure out if protoss is expanding, sure we can scan, but what if you just expanded somewhere else.
You try to reduce strategies to some kind of flowchart with the implicit assumption that all necessary information can always be acquired.
Starcraft is a game of incomplete information!!!
Number 2:
Is that why people go Nexus first all the time in master league? It is really common on big maps...
|
On May 04 2012 02:12 MilesTeg wrote:
I'm a Zerg player and I don't like any of the changes. I think the game is pretty balanced. The scouting problem are going to be fixed once people learn to be a bit more aggressive. The queen energy buff is simply ludicrous, way overpowered.
What does that mean? If ur gonna all-in then you dont really need to scout but if you are planning on playing a macro game you have to scout, right?
In my opinion all the changes look really good, maybe now terran wont be able to delay a thrid for ages with just four helions,
|
On May 04 2012 02:13 Jakkerr wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:11 PanN wrote:On May 04 2012 02:10 Jakkerr wrote:
Don't like any of the changes.
Overlord speed probably has some use for early game scouting, but a good zerg allready has overlords all over the map so it's impossible to properly drop them without them knowing it 30 seconds in advance.
Queen energy just doesn't feel needed, off course zerg players will like it but I don't see the need of it.
Observer change won't change anything, 10 seconds off no1 cares.
Those changes seem to be made to give protoss and zerg more early game scouting vs Terran but I don't think this is the right way for it. 10 seconds earlier observer won't change a thing and even with increased overlord speed a Terran will have a bunch of marines ready to instantly snipe the overlord. Overlord speed will change absolutely nothing involving drops. You are aware the overlord speed change is for SCOUTING TECH right? Overlord placement for drops is extremely simple and speed has never been a factor. I meant that with overlord spread it's pretty easy to spot banshee openers from miles away, in that time u can easily build a spore crawler. All other terran openers can be scouted by sending 2 zerglings to the terran base and check if he's doing factory based or rax based stuff.
Please elaborate on the bolded part. How do you check to see if he's doing a marauder-hellion all-in, for example?
|
On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level.
ha I love this type of qq. Terran dominating for last year until recently and protoss finally coming out a year slump and its QQ all day long. Maybe its time for terran to work on some of those options and develop some good strats. Protoss did
|
On May 04 2012 02:08 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:49 ][Primarch][ wrote:
Terran strong early game? you mean when they behind 3 bunkers until medivacs pop out so that the extreme power of protoss early game wont actually just roll straight over you? And then they can stroll around the map for 2-3 minutes before protoss have AOE damage. Herp Derp Blizzard. Protoss not doing good? They do fantastic at every level. Whaaaaaaaaat? You only have to build bunkers if you are going to tech or macro. If not, you can forgo them. This is what is sounds like you are saying OMFG PROTOSS SO IMBA!!!!!! I HAVE TO BUILD BUNKER!!! Why do you think bunker is in the game? For defense. Want Protoss to QQ because we have to build cannons to stop drops? srsly I'm just trying to point out that terran is not imba vs protoss in the early-midgame. A T who is playing standard hides behind bunkers and don't move out on the map without medivacs cause you can just lose everything to gateway-units and forcefields.
|
|
|
On May 04 2012 02:15 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:09 aksfjh wrote:On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build. You're not looking hard enough at Terran builds if you really think that's true. You can tell a lot about gas timing and expansion timing with an initial scout probe and stalker, as long as you know what to look for. After that point, you can tailor your build to their expected strat, while taking precautions to cover any wonky inefficient strats. What world do you live on? That may be true at GM level, but below that timings mean nothing. You can't expect every Terran to play perfectly, and hit all the timings. And because they don't hit these timings it messes up what we think they are doing. Essentially timings of gas and buildings mean nothing at the lower level because they don't play nearly as perfect as the Pro players.
If it's at the level where timings don't matter, scouting doesn't matter much either.
A tightly executed build will simply win outright.
|
On May 04 2012 02:15 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 02:09 aksfjh wrote:On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build. You're not looking hard enough at Terran builds if you really think that's true. You can tell a lot about gas timing and expansion timing with an initial scout probe and stalker, as long as you know what to look for. After that point, you can tailor your build to their expected strat, while taking precautions to cover any wonky inefficient strats. What world do you live on? That may be true at GM level, but below that timings mean nothing. You can't expect every Terran to play perfectly, and hit all the timings. And because they don't hit these timings it messes up what we think they are doing. Essentially timings of gas and buildings mean nothing at the lower level because they don't play nearly as perfect as the Pro players.
That's so wrong, if a lower level player does a build but does not hit the right timing with it, then you are automatically better off, if you played right, than when he didn't do it.
People in lower leagues do weird stuff, completly agree, but it's up to you to figure out why this stuff is not highlevel material. Stop looking at the timer in the corner, and start playing based upon what you see, then you can't get "tricked" by wrongly played builds
|
On May 04 2012 02:15 one-one-one wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2012 01:59 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On May 04 2012 01:24 one-one-one wrote:On May 04 2012 00:59 aintthatfunny wrote:On May 04 2012 00:28 one-one-one wrote:On May 03 2012 23:51 kcdc wrote:
Really Blizzard? Zerg is the one with weak early game scouting? You know there's a race with no early flying, cliff-walking or even fast units, right? You troll. Protoss has the stalker, which is a fast unit. In PvT you can pretty much always find out if the terran is taking an expansion by poking the front. If you don't feel safe, put down a robo and chronoboost your observer. No one forces you to play super greedy builds that skips out early observers. No you can't. He can make a bunker on top of his ramp with inbase CC, forcing you to make a fast robo, skip sentries in favor of stalker incase of hellion rine pushes etc. cut probes AND make 4/5 gateways. No, how come people just spit out things that are wrong. If he has inbase CC he will soon lift it out. If you scout a bunker you will have enough map control to be able to poke his natural a bit later. If he is 1 baseing you can usually find out what he is up to with a fast robo. There are some quick hellion drops and stuff, but keep in mind that he might as well proxy stuff. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information. You are not going to see exactly what your opponent is doing every game, you will have to rely on game sense which is gained by playing a lot of games where you don't have the mindset: "if my opponent does x I HAVE to do x and y and z", because it is most likely not true. As a constructive tip I recomend you to go watch some BW vods with english commentary and you will sometimes see players with insanely good game sense managing to figure out and counter proxy- and cheese-builds. There are also some Day[9] dailies I would recommend. The first one is about "pinning your opponent on a build" http://blip.tv/file/5219824The second one is about eliminating assumptions http://blip.tv/day9tv/day-9-daily-400-p1-special-episode-eliminating-assumptions-5888689 I'll just state the most obvious flaw in your statement. Protoss can't figure out if the Terran went CC until he moves it out, by which time they will be really ahead because we will have to put down our Nexus while theirs is alreacy completed. And we can't go Nexus first because Terran could be doing some cheese or aggressive build. There was nothing flawed in my post. You clearly did not understand it. And your post is full of flaws. Number 1: You are not supposed to know every game if your opponent is expanding or not. This information can be acquired in several ways, but it is also possible for your opponent to try to deny this information. I can't believe I'm telling you this. Even terran can not always figure out if protoss is expanding, sure we can scan, but what if you just expanded somewhere else. You try to reduce strategies to some kind of flowchart with the implicit assumption that all necessary information can always be acquired. Starcraft is a game of incomplete information!!! Number 2: Is that why people go Nexus first all the time in master league? It is really common on big maps...
LOL ! Ok so I am not supposed to know what the Terran is doing early game? Just wow.... So you are saying this game should stay a coin-flip ? I don't see your logic. Also, you can look for Protoss hidden expantions with a marine or scv checking all the expos. Protoss go Nexus first on big maps because Terran goes CC first as well.
|
I really like the obs change.
|
|
|
|
|
|
2156
2038
1136
EPT
