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On April 29 2012 10:10 noidontthinkso wrote:
david kim is the worst game balancer on this planet
seems like i have to switch from T to Z or P, well see whats more easy
I'm sure he and everyone else at Blizzard knows T is way harder than the other 2 races. The question, do you really want to see only t v t again at the gsl? They have to balance the game for the absolute highest level of play, thats just unfortunately how it is.
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On April 29 2012 09:20 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 08:33 bearhug wrote:
I'm seriously questioning David Kim's ability to do the job. I didn't see anything special from his CV or experence whcih could impress me. Perhaps the biggest accomplishmend he achieved is to be hired by Blizzard. I believe any one who can play at the level of Korean pros with good english can do the job at least not worse than him. Blizzard, why you hire this guy? I'm tired of seeing his name on balance talks. Really. When was the last night his account was even in NA GM?
Just to be sure I understand you correctly... you are being sarcastic, right?
And if not, have you not read or watched explanations of all of the analysis David Kim and the other head honchos do between pros' feedback, ladder data, tournament results, and personal laddering? He's also not a bronze scrub, for what it's worth, but what you're stating is like saying that you can't have a coach for Federer or Nadal unless the trainer has won a grand slam, or you can't coach basketball or baseball unless you played on a team that won its own championship.
There are a lot of complaints about the game, and surely some of them (probably an incredibly small fraction, considering we all whine about everything) are justified, but it always pains me to see people proclaiming that Random Person X is surely a better game balancer than the guys who have been working on this project and collecting and reviewing all of the data since the beginning of SC2. You specifically mention "Korean pros with good english". David Kim gets feedback from "Korean pros with good english", and many other vital sources.
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On April 29 2012 14:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 09:20 SupLilSon wrote:On April 29 2012 08:33 bearhug wrote:
I'm seriously questioning David Kim's ability to do the job. I didn't see anything special from his CV or experence whcih could impress me. Perhaps the biggest accomplishmend he achieved is to be hired by Blizzard. I believe any one who can play at the level of Korean pros with good english can do the job at least not worse than him. Blizzard, why you hire this guy? I'm tired of seeing his name on balance talks. Really. When was the last night his account was even in NA GM? Just to be sure I understand you correctly... you are being sarcastic, right? And if not, have you not read or watched explanations of all of the analysis David Kim and the other head honchos do between pros' feedback, ladder data, tournament results, and personal laddering? He's also not a bronze scrub, for what it's worth, but what you're stating is like saying that you can't have a coach for Federer or Nadal unless the trainer has won a grand slam, or you can't coach basketball or baseball unless you played on a team that won its own championship. There are a lot of complaints about the game, and surely some of them (probably an incredibly small fraction, considering we all whine about everything) are justified, but it always pains me to see people proclaiming that Random Person X is surely a better game balancer than the guys who have been working on this project and collecting and reviewing all of the data since the beginning of SC2. You specifically mention "Korean pros with good english". David Kim gets feedback from "Korean pros with good english", and many other vital sources.
By the standards of the SC2 community, all professional coaches and referees for any professional sports league would need to have been successful pro-players themselves. Very successful.
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On April 29 2012 14:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 09:20 SupLilSon wrote:On April 29 2012 08:33 bearhug wrote:
I'm seriously questioning David Kim's ability to do the job. I didn't see anything special from his CV or experence whcih could impress me. Perhaps the biggest accomplishmend he achieved is to be hired by Blizzard. I believe any one who can play at the level of Korean pros with good english can do the job at least not worse than him. Blizzard, why you hire this guy? I'm tired of seeing his name on balance talks. Really. When was the last night his account was even in NA GM? Just to be sure I understand you correctly... you are being sarcastic, right? And if not, have you not read or watched explanations of all of the analysis David Kim and the other head honchos do between pros' feedback, ladder data, tournament results, and personal laddering? He's also not a bronze scrub, for what it's worth, but what you're stating is like saying that you can't have a coach for Federer or Nadal unless the trainer has won a grand slam, or you can't coach basketball or baseball unless you played on a team that won its own championship. There are a lot of complaints about the game, and surely some of them (probably an incredibly small fraction, considering we all whine about everything) are justified, but it always pains me to see people proclaiming that Random Person X is surely a better game balancer than the guys who have been working on this project and collecting and reviewing all of the data since the beginning of SC2. You specifically mention "Korean pros with good english". David Kim gets feedback from "Korean pros with good english", and many other vital sources.
YES THANK YOU. I hate how it seems everybody in this community thinks that someone who is not a top player in the game has no right to have input. WTF. Again, it just brings back the point, who trains Usain Bolt? What right does a Blizzard employee at all have to even program the game? None of them are progamers.
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Something that has bugged me for awhile is when blizzard mentions that they analyse the feedback from various "progamers". Yet when the pros talk about balance (in the context of blizz and david kin) no one knows who these "progamers" are. I mean the latest SOTG had idra, thorzain and the rest saying the same thing. Who are these "progamers" because it seems like they dont actually exist..
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On April 29 2012 14:43 YyapSsap wrote:
Something that has bugged me for awhile is when blizzard mentions that they analyse the feedback from various "progamers". Yet when the pros talk about balance (in the context of blizz and david kin) no one knows who these "progamers" are. I mean the latest SOTG had idra, thorzain and the rest saying the same thing. Who are these "progamers" because it seems like they dont actually exist..
It would be cool if they were cited, although I doubt that either the Blizzard designers or the pro-gamers would want the pro-gamers to start being personally attacked for giving certain suggestions, as then they would be less likely to voice their opinions in the future... I believe Sen was cited a while back, as was Boxer, but I don't remember how long ago. I'm sure there are many others.
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On April 29 2012 14:05 Neurosis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 10:10 noidontthinkso wrote:
david kim is the worst game balancer on this planet
seems like i have to switch from T to Z or P, well see whats more easy I'm sure he and everyone else at Blizzard knows T is way harder than the other 2 races. The question, do you really want to see only t v t again at the gsl? They have to balance the game for the absolute highest level of play, thats just unfortunately how it is.
When did people start having the impression that T is hard? Isn't terran known for being the easy race all along? Maybe it's tough at the highest level (Maybe because of the maps with better balance?) But, isn't that because terran is loleasy for a lower league player that it seems like a huge jump in difficulty as you advance(from loleasy to a difficulty on par with the other races can be quite challenging for most players)?
Even when terran was glaringly OP at release, most terran players consider their race to be fine.
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There's really no reason for Blizz to alter TvP at the masters level, as they are most concerned about the lower end (where new customers/buyers/people that will spend money on expansions will come in) and the higher end (where tournaments happen and a balancing act must be held between viewer interest/sponsors/event integrity). Those stuck in the middle are just expected to keep playing and paying and unfortunately many will stick to just that.
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On April 29 2012 14:55 Luppy1 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 14:05 Neurosis wrote:On April 29 2012 10:10 noidontthinkso wrote:
david kim is the worst game balancer on this planet
seems like i have to switch from T to Z or P, well see whats more easy I'm sure he and everyone else at Blizzard knows T is way harder than the other 2 races. The question, do you really want to see only t v t again at the gsl? They have to balance the game for the absolute highest level of play, thats just unfortunately how it is. When did people start having the impression that T is hard? Isn't terran known for being the easy race all along? Maybe it's tough at the highest level (Maybe because of the maps with better balance?) But, isn't that because terran is loleasy for a lower league player that it seems like a huge jump in difficulty as you advance(from loleasy to a difficulty on par with the other races can be quite challenging for most players)? Even when terran was glaringly OP at release, most terran players consider their race to be fine.
Your ignorance is astounding. Unless you happen to be "most terran players," do NOT speak for us.
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On April 29 2012 14:43 YyapSsap wrote:
Something that has bugged me for awhile is when blizzard mentions that they analyse the feedback from various "progamers". Yet when the pros talk about balance (in the context of blizz and david kin) no one knows who these "progamers" are. I mean the latest SOTG had idra, thorzain and the rest saying the same thing. Who are these "progamers" because it seems like they dont actually exist..
Why would they lie about it tough? Afterall they do not need approval from the progamers or the SC2 community to make any changes. They could make the Marine cost 1 mineral next patch if they wanted to.
Perhaps the players they do ask, they arent allowed to reveal it? Or simply choose not to in fear of getting trolled by the community? All the respect to Idra, but he is probably at the bottom of the list of players you want to actually design your game.
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On April 29 2012 13:09 bbQ4Aiur wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 29 2012 12:33 Myrddraal wrote:On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. Add to the Protoss side: hit good forcefields, activate/reactivate guardian shield, kite weakened colossi back, make sure zealots aren't overcommitting, blink after Vikings, blink back weakened stalkers, stop everything completely and look somewhere else to warp in more units. I dont know what your watching.. I mean yes,, protoss CAN do all that stuff, but ive never seen a protoss do ALL of that in a single match. If a protoss plays 5 matchs, then yes, he will do all of that -mabey-, but in a single match, he will do some of it, but never near all of it.. Whereas Terran has to do all of that micro+more every match, if they want to win of course.. Your argument just seems void to me =/ ((and your stop everything and focus elsewhere to warp in units, is only looking mabey a screen length away -if that.)) because we dont share the same macro mechanism like zerg/terran does. you can 4aaaa during a fight while microing and focusing on the battle. We cant, we need to look away, find a pylon to warp-in stuff, so inevitably, during the course of the engagement, we would be a-moving for sometime, and after the macro, we look back and micro again.
There is basically nothing stopping you to change your warp gates back to gateways. Maybe not the most ideal thing to do, but saying that you can't queue units is pretty ignorant thing to say nonetheless.
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On April 29 2012 15:10 Penecks wrote:
There's really no reason for Blizz to alter TvP at the masters level, as they are most concerned about the lower end (where new customers/buyers/people that will spend money on expansions will come in) and the higher end (where tournaments happen and a balancing act must be held between viewer interest/sponsors/event integrity). Those stuck in the middle are just expected to keep playing and paying and unfortunately many will stick to just that.
Well, everyone has their own opinions and thats fine. In my own personal opinion, I feel that the micro terran players have to pull off is quite a lot harder than the other 2 races and this is where I personally struggle a lot. Also, I feel that strategically terran requires a very specific type of personality. As we all know, a "passive macro" style that Artosis/Idra love to spread so much love for absolutely just doesn't work with Terran. I'm not saying strategically it's harder than the other races, but it certainly requires a solid grasp on timings and, ahem, cheese.
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Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me.
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In all seriousness, Kim and Browder should pay closer attention to the community.
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On April 29 2012 16:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me.
Zergs dominate the ladder, which is what most people here are playing on. There's as many, if not more zergs compared to protoss in ladder play. Also, in anywhere except korea, zergs are doing very well.
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On April 29 2012 16:14 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me. Zergs dominate the ladder, which is what most people here are playing on. There's as many, if not more zergs compared to protoss in ladder play. Also, in anywhere except korea, zergs are doing very well.
If you've got the data to back that up I'd love to see it (that might come across as sarcastic but I don't mean it that way). I'm just pointing out what I see in David Kim's report.
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On April 29 2012 16:17 SmileZerg wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:14 IMoperator wrote:On April 29 2012 16:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me. Zergs dominate the ladder, which is what most people here are playing on. There's as many, if not more zergs compared to protoss in ladder play. Also, in anywhere except korea, zergs are doing very well. If you've got the data to back that up I'd love to see it (that might come across as sarcastic but I don't mean it that way). I'm just pointing out what I see in David Kim's report.
http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all for the ladder data and http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments + http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Minor_Tournaments for tournaments
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On April 29 2012 16:21 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:17 SmileZerg wrote:On April 29 2012 16:14 IMoperator wrote:On April 29 2012 16:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me. Zergs dominate the ladder, which is what most people here are playing on. There's as many, if not more zergs compared to protoss in ladder play. Also, in anywhere except korea, zergs are doing very well. If you've got the data to back that up I'd love to see it (that might come across as sarcastic but I don't mean it that way). I'm just pointing out what I see in David Kim's report. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all for the ladder data and http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments + http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Minor_Tournaments for tournaments
Those percentages dont seem as severe as you seem to be implying.
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On April 29 2012 16:21 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 16:17 SmileZerg wrote:On April 29 2012 16:14 IMoperator wrote:On April 29 2012 16:10 SmileZerg wrote:
Can someone explain to me why all the Terrans in this thread are complaining about being the hardest race and having a tough time when the data in the OP all clearly points to Zerg being the worst off?
There's not a single matchup in a single region that has Z above 50%. We're having just as hard a time vs Toss in NA as Terran is, and are perfectly equal with Toss in Korea, just like Terran, only TvZ in Korea is showing a slight T advantage.
Zerg has the lowest representation in the pro level overall.
Not a single Zerg made it to the quarterfinals in this GSL, and last season we only had one, DRG, who admittedly went on to win the Championship but that's because he's one of the best players in the world.
Last and most importantly, the only possible balance change even hinted at by David Kim in the whole discussion is giving Zerg additional scouting options for the early game
What looks concerning to me for Terran players, is the map winrates. It seems PvT is mainly imbalanced because of maps right now. That's what you should be focused on, and that doesn't imply anything about T being harder to play. Just veto the bad maps and get better. If you honestly think your race is the hardest, try switching to Zerg for awhile, then come back to me. Zergs dominate the ladder, which is what most people here are playing on. There's as many, if not more zergs compared to protoss in ladder play. Also, in anywhere except korea, zergs are doing very well. If you've got the data to back that up I'd love to see it (that might come across as sarcastic but I don't mean it that way). I'm just pointing out what I see in David Kim's report. http://sc2ranks.com/stats/league/all/1/all for the ladder data and http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Major_Tournaments + http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Minor_Tournaments for tournaments
All I'm getting from the stats in the first link, is that Zerg is even with Terran in terms of players in Grandmaster league (with Protoss doing better than both), but has the lowest average points and win percentage of all three races.
Out of the last 10 major tournaments, there were 5 in which a Zerg took 1st place, but THREE of those were DRG who kind of skews the numbers, while the 4 Terran champions were all different players. And there were 6 T in the runner-ups (counting MKP twice though ROFL), compared to 1 Z.
I guess I see your point if you're talking about Plat/Diamond level on the ladder, but I don't feel that's as relevant to true balance as the pro scene.
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On April 29 2012 12:01 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 11:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 27 2012 10:58 KeeN wrote:
"zerg need better scouting early game" how is it that it takes these guys 1+ years after release to figure this out? so sad Protoss has to scout with a probe early game. ((i dont know the timings on observers, but it cant be earlier than 6:00 can it?)) Terran has to scout with an scv early game ((first scouting scan doesnt hit till around 6:30)) Zerg gets to scout with overlord and a drone early game ((turn overlord into overseer, i dont know the timings but its around 6:00?))... So lets give zerg more scouting options? pardon me if i may sound ignorant, but if so, could you explain this logic to me? Overseer's need Lair tech, and saccing a very slowverlord to possibly see what's going on is not so good either. The issue is further compounded because it's very hard to just turtle as a zerg, what you do is dictated by what your opponent does to a significant degree. It's not to say that scouting should be easy, it's too important to the game, but it should be possible. Often once a wall goes up, it's entirely possible to deny a zerg play any scouting at all, and fairly easily at that. It's an obvious and uncontroversial remark for D.Kim to make. Edit for better wordage.
Overlord Speed should be moved to Hatchery. By the time you actually get this upgrade, the opponent should have a way of denying your scouting, but it's still an improvement.
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EPT
