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On April 29 2012 09:08 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 08:48 SwizzY wrote:
In reference to OP: David Kim translation: Unless Protoss starts winning 60%, we ain't changing anything till HotS. Time for vay-cay. You really hit the nail on the head there, lol try harder
Oh my gosh, you are so right! I'm looking for the part in David Kim's response that indicates major balance/race tweaks changes... I'm having some trouble there.
Oh that's right, he only references to possible map tweaks because those maps are obviously outliers, on the LADDER.
I really did hit the nail on the head, I just forgot to make my responses completely idiot-safe. I'll be better next time.
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On April 29 2012 09:05 SwizzY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 08:58 Pwnani wrote:On April 29 2012 08:48 SwizzY wrote:
When did "Balance with David Kim" turn into "Balance with D-level Terran/Toss"
Both races have different mechanics that have their own "do-or-die" moments.
Protoss often need pinpoint FF, that if misplaced, lead to straight up GG.
Terran often have more critical points in decision making, that if made incorrectly, lead to straight up GG.
And there are so many factors in between the lines about EMP range vs. Storm range or Stutter-step vs. 1-A Chargelots;
(For these particular scenarios, positioning is a major factor, but I digress).
But I guarantee you, with fucking money on the line, that it didn't just come down to, "OMG I PLAYED SO PERFECTLY BUT PROTOSS 1-A GG INSTA WIN." You're much worse at this game than you think.
Upload a replay and I, personally, will tear you a new asshole.
Protoss as well. You are not playing the game as perfect as you think, and it did not just come down to: "OMG, GHOSTS CLOAK AND SNIPE ALL HT OMG WHY TERRAN QQ???"
None of you have any real insight into strategy or even balance for that matter. Stop typing with an authority you don't have.
In reference to OP: David Kim translation: Unless Protoss starts winning 60%, we ain't changing anything till HotS. Time for vay-cay. Much easier to cast a ff, on a ramp then it is to micro a group of units while trying to emp storms. Just sayin. It's easier to que a drop behind a vital base during a major battle than it is to position HT away from ghosts. It's easier to archon toilet than it is to set up multi-prong attacks. It's easier to pee than it is to poop. Your comments literally mean nothing with no context. And for every context you make that supports you, I can make one that supports me. This "balance" discussion is worthless.
Well the majority of it is llate game discussion, its pretty evident from both the post given regarding late game protoss wins that the community has been having an incredible difficulty with wining vs toss after 20 min. Disregarding the whole balancing of midgame late game stuff, I think builds are what should make you win at different stages of the game and not the race itself.
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On April 29 2012 08:33 bearhug wrote:
I'm seriously questioning David Kim's ability to do the job. I didn't see anything special from his CV or experence whcih could impress me. Perhaps the biggest accomplishmend he achieved is to be hired by Blizzard. I believe any one who can play at the level of Korean pros with good english can do the job at least not worse than him. Blizzard, why you hire this guy? I'm tired of seeing his name on balance talks.
Really. When was the last night his account was even in NA GM?
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On April 29 2012 08:33 Salteador Neo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 05:45 sieksdekciw wrote:On April 29 2012 05:35 PureBalls wrote:
A-moves, activates GS, casts a dozen FFs, casts storms, focus fires with his colossi and archons, and uses blink. 4500 actions total, most of them requiring much higher precision. More like one a move and then storms. What about storms requires precision? You just pick the biggest clump of units and hit it. By the way, i am getting more and more amused by your repetitive tries to defend an obviously wrong cause. Can't happen man, we all know how hard toss micro is and, truth be told, it's not that hard and it doesn't require much precision than a moving behind your enemy's army. Face it tossie, you aren't doing much and still winning, whatever you want us to believe is you are doing. You can lie to yourself, but not to the whole community. Toss micro is a child's play compared to terran micro. FACE IT. ADMIT IT. Man I'm glad I don't play this game, reading posts like these is so much more fun xD I totally lost it at the "Face it. Admit it" part. More please.
All I can see is someone screaming at his screen "ADMIT IT! I'M BETTER THAN YOU! FACE THE FACT!"
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On April 29 2012 09:14 SwizzY wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 09:08 teamhozac wrote:our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom On April 29 2012 08:48 SwizzY wrote:
In reference to OP: David Kim translation: Unless Protoss starts winning 60%, we ain't changing anything till HotS. Time for vay-cay. You really hit the nail on the head there, lol try harder Oh my gosh, you are so right! I'm looking for the part in David Kim's response that indicates major balance/race tweaks changes... I'm having some trouble there. Oh that's right, he only references to possible map tweaks because those maps are obviously outliers, on the LADDER. I really did hit the nail on the head, I just forgot to make my responses completely idiot-safe. I'll be better next time.
If you made it idiot proof you wouldnt be able to type it, because you, clearly, are an idiot.
User was temp banned for this post.
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david kim is the worst game balancer on this planet
seems like i have to switch from T to Z or P, well see whats more easy
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On April 29 2012 10:10 noidontthinkso wrote:
david kim is the worst game balancer on this planet
People like you are the worst fans of anything in this world. I'm sure David appreciates your reasonable critiques.
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On April 29 2012 02:26 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 01:43 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 29 2012 01:39 zezamer wrote:On April 29 2012 00:58 bbQ4Aiur wrote:
Why is PvT seems so imba in the foreign scene but not so in Korea? Its because foreigners basically do not play as well (mechanically, strategically) imho. There's 5 protoss in ro8. I'm pretty sure we will have 4 protoss in ro4. one of them is PvP so its 6 for 3 slots we are talking about here. Mvp will advance imo. Hero/supernova is a tough call. If Squirtle does as well as he did in IPL4, he may advance. But this explains nothing about the balance. Wait a minute wait a minute... The guy quoting the GSL as balance earlier is now saying the number of Protoss IN THE GSL has nothing to do with balance? WOW youre something else buddy
What i meant was, at the top top level (GSL Code B - S ) its balance like David Kim said.
A tourney Ro4 explains nth cause it consist of only 4 players, u want them to be T Z P + another one then its balanced? No.
And if you solely look at Ro8 result, we then need to buff zerg? No.
You need to look at a bigger picture (Code B - S), yet not too big of a scene (Not master- in the foreign scene), cause they can still improve their gameplay.
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On April 29 2012 02:12 teamhozac wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 00:42 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 29 2012 00:38 teamhozac wrote:On April 29 2012 00:17 bbQ4Aiur wrote:On April 29 2012 00:13 teamhozac wrote:Keep using the GSL to look at balance for AN ENTIRE FUCKING COMMUNITY, and you will keep making yourself look like an unintelligent, biased poster lmao, so what should i look at ? gold leaguers records? Show me a statistics which said PvT is not within 45-55% please. Or even better, show me a record with PvT > 50%. The statistics dont exist, because blizzard doesnt release them, youre a real genius arent you? EDIT: PvT on Cloud Kingdom 70% there you go What did they release on Page 1 then? Blizzard said the current PvT is within the acceptable zone. And now TvZ metalopolis 37%, how about nerfing Zerg? You only sees what you wanna see, do u? You ask me for an example of when protoss is favored on ladder, I give one to you, and then you say something about zerg? you must be a politician
lmao, record on a single map only suggest the map isnt that great.
Look what happen to Steppes of War. Think before you say something.
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On April 27 2012 10:58 KeeN wrote:
"zerg need better scouting early game" how is it that it takes these guys 1+ years after release to figure this out? so sad
Protoss has to scout with a probe early game. ((i dont know the timings on observers, but it cant be earlier than 6:00 can it?))
Terran has to scout with an scv early game ((first scouting scan doesnt hit till around 6:30))
Zerg gets to scout with overlord and a drone early game ((turn overlord into overseer, i dont know the timings but its around 6:00?))... So lets give zerg more scouting options?
pardon me if i may sound ignorant, but if so, could you explain this logic to me?
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On April 29 2012 11:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 10:58 KeeN wrote:
"zerg need better scouting early game" how is it that it takes these guys 1+ years after release to figure this out? so sad Protoss has to scout with a probe early game. ((i dont know the timings on observers, but it cant be earlier than 6:00 can it?)) Terran has to scout with an scv early game ((first scouting scan doesnt hit till around 6:30)) Zerg gets to scout with overlord and a drone early game ((turn overlord into overseer, i dont know the timings but its around 6:00?))... So lets give zerg more scouting options? pardon me if i may sound ignorant, but if so, could you explain this logic to me?
Overseer's need Lair tech, and saccing a very slowverlord to possibly see what's going on is not so good either. The issue is further compounded because it's very hard to just turtle as a zerg, what you do is dictated by what your opponent does to a significant degree. It's not to say that scouting should be easy, it's too important to the game, but it should be possible. Often once a wall goes up, it's entirely possible to deny a zerg play any scouting at all, and fairly easily at that. It's an obvious and uncontroversial remark for D.Kim to make.
Edit for better wordage.
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On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard.
Fine by me, if that's what it takes. Nerf Terran early and mid game. If it means that TvP late game is fixed and TvZ is not broken, then by all means. Do it.
It won't happen though, because Blizzard is rightly afraid of upsetting the "balance" that they have achieved at this point. I'd much prefer it if they do an overhaul of the basic game design. There's going to be a lot of new things in HoTS anyway, so why not fixed the broken warp gate mechanic while they're at it. That's the source of many of the balance complexities anyway, and I don't feel it is a positive element in the game. There's nothing interesting or exciting about it. At all. They can keep their big ball battles, but for god sakes, get rid of warp gates.
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On April 29 2012 12:02 riff wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 07:44 PureBalls wrote:On April 28 2012 07:11 riff wrote:
I didn't learn anything about the state of the game that I didn't already know. I'm disappointed that David Kim made no mention of TvP late game. The "stats" might say the game is "balanced," but TvP late game is broken. I pray that someone more qualified than David Kim is put in charge of balance in Heart of the Swarm. And how is it then, that PvT ist 50%? If the late game is broken in favor of protoss, then the early/mid game hast to be equally broken in favor of terran in order for the win rate to be 50%. If you desire stronger terran late game, then terran early/mid game would have to be nerfed just as hard. Fine by me, if that's what it takes. Nerf Terran early and mid game. If it means that TvP late game is fixed and TvZ is not broken, then by all means. Do it. It won't happen though, because Blizzard is rightly afraid of upsetting the "balance" that they have achieved at this point. I'd much prefer it if they do an overhaul of the basic game design. There's going to be a lot of new things in HoTS anyway, so why not fixed the broken warp gate mechanic while they're at it. That's the source of many of the balance complexities anyway, and I don't feel it is a positive element in the game. There's nothing interesting or exciting about it. At all. They can keep their big ball battles, but for god sakes, get rid of warp gates.
Tbh, as a protoss player, i dont think terran early game is strong (unless they all-in).
It is the mid game stim timing with medivac that is deadly. But they had already nerfed stim research time once, i doubt blizzard will nerf it again.
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On April 29 2012 12:01 Haiq343 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 11:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 27 2012 10:58 KeeN wrote:
"zerg need better scouting early game" how is it that it takes these guys 1+ years after release to figure this out? so sad Protoss has to scout with a probe early game. ((i dont know the timings on observers, but it cant be earlier than 6:00 can it?)) Terran has to scout with an scv early game ((first scouting scan doesnt hit till around 6:30)) Zerg gets to scout with overlord and a drone early game ((turn overlord into overseer, i dont know the timings but its around 6:00?))... So lets give zerg more scouting options? pardon me if i may sound ignorant, but if so, could you explain this logic to me? Overseer's need Lair tech, and saccing a very slowverlord to possibly see what's going on is not so good either. The issue is further compounded because it's very hard to just turtle as a zerg, what you do is dictated by what your opponent does to a significant degree. It's not to say that scouting should be easy, it's too important to the game, but it should be possible. Often once a wall goes up, it's entirely possible to deny a zerg play any scouting at all, and fairly easily at that. It's an obvious and uncontroversial remark for D.Kim to make. Edit for better wordage.
upgrade the slowverlord into an overseer, and poop out a changling on the edge of the base, so you can walk it around inside the terran base to see whats up??
I just dont understand what is so hard about scouting for zerg.. They honestly have all the tools they need.
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On April 29 2012 12:07 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 12:01 Haiq343 wrote:On April 29 2012 11:51 sGs.Stregon wrote:On April 27 2012 10:58 KeeN wrote:
"zerg need better scouting early game" how is it that it takes these guys 1+ years after release to figure this out? so sad Protoss has to scout with a probe early game. ((i dont know the timings on observers, but it cant be earlier than 6:00 can it?)) Terran has to scout with an scv early game ((first scouting scan doesnt hit till around 6:30)) Zerg gets to scout with overlord and a drone early game ((turn overlord into overseer, i dont know the timings but its around 6:00?))... So lets give zerg more scouting options? pardon me if i may sound ignorant, but if so, could you explain this logic to me? Overseer's need Lair tech, and saccing a very slowverlord to possibly see what's going on is not so good either. The issue is further compounded because it's very hard to just turtle as a zerg, what you do is dictated by what your opponent does to a significant degree. It's not to say that scouting should be easy, it's too important to the game, but it should be possible. Often once a wall goes up, it's entirely possible to deny a zerg play any scouting at all, and fairly easily at that. It's an obvious and uncontroversial remark for D.Kim to make. Edit for better wordage. upgrade the slowverlord into an overseer, and poop out a changling on the edge of the base, so you can walk it around inside the terran base to see whats up?? I just dont understand what is so hard about scouting for zerg.. They honestly have all the tools they need.
Zerg has the best scouting early game imo, given the mobility of OL and ling. I think what David Kim meant is the obs/scan/overseer ability. But still, toss is the race thats has a blind early game, before robo/hallu is out.
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On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well.
Add to the Protoss side: hit good forcefields, activate/reactivate guardian shield, kite weakened colossi back, make sure zealots aren't overcommitting, blink after Vikings, blink back weakened stalkers, stop everything completely and look somewhere else to warp in more units.
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On April 29 2012 12:33 Myrddraal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. Add to the Protoss side: hit good forcefields, activate/reactivate guardian shield, kite weakened colossi back, make sure zealots aren't overcommitting, blink after Vikings, blink back weakened stalkers, stop everything completely and look somewhere else to warp in more units.
I dont know what your watching.. I mean yes,, protoss CAN do all that stuff, but ive never seen a protoss do ALL of that in a single match. If a protoss plays 5 matchs, then yes, he will do all of that -mabey-, but in a single match, he will do some of it, but never near all of it.. Whereas Terran has to do all of that micro+more every match, if they want to win of course..
Your argument just seems void to me =/
((and your stop everything and focus elsewhere to warp in units, is only looking mabey a screen length away -if that.))
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On April 29 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 12:33 Myrddraal wrote:On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. Add to the Protoss side: hit good forcefields, activate/reactivate guardian shield, kite weakened colossi back, make sure zealots aren't overcommitting, blink after Vikings, blink back weakened stalkers, stop everything completely and look somewhere else to warp in more units. I dont know what your watching.. I mean yes,, protoss CAN do all that stuff, but ive never seen a protoss do ALL of that in a single match. If a protoss plays 5 matchs, then yes, he will do all of that -mabey-, but in a single match, he will do some of it, but never near all of it.. Whereas Terran has to do all of that micro+more every match, if they want to win of course.. Your argument just seems void to me =/ ((and your stop everything and focus elsewhere to warp in units, is only looking mabey a screen length away -if that.))
because we dont share the same macro mechanism like zerg/terran does. you can 4aaaa during a fight while microing and focusing on the battle. We cant, we need to look away, find a pylon to warp-in stuff, so inevitably, during the course of the engagement, we would be a-moving for sometime, and after the macro, we look back and micro again.
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On April 29 2012 12:47 sGs.Stregon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 29 2012 12:33 Myrddraal wrote:On April 27 2012 11:27 Jaegeru wrote:On April 27 2012 11:17 windsupernova wrote:On April 27 2012 11:12 SarcasmMonster wrote:
Every time David Kim does one of these, the community takes it as an opportunity to QQ. For the love of god, stop doing these Blizz. Haha this. Its especially baffling considering that now most of the QQ comes from T who.... are half and half with P in Code S, won Dreamhack, and last MLG? P lategame may be powerful but the MU is obviously winnable. That may be true but as demuslim said on stream it seems unfair that terran has to do so many more things than protoss being dodging storm's, getting emp's off, sniping templar, microing vikings and microing bio. Whereas protoss has to split templars, try hit a storm and focus vikings when they can. Don't misinterpret this as balance whine I'm just pointing out that you have to be so fast and have crazy apm to win. it's winnable if you play really well. Add to the Protoss side: hit good forcefields, activate/reactivate guardian shield, kite weakened colossi back, make sure zealots aren't overcommitting, blink after Vikings, blink back weakened stalkers, stop everything completely and look somewhere else to warp in more units. I dont know what your watching.. I mean yes,, protoss CAN do all that stuff, but ive never seen a protoss do ALL of that in a single match. If a protoss plays 5 matchs, then yes, he will do all of that -mabey-, but in a single match, he will do some of it, but never near all of it.. Whereas Terran has to do all of that micro+more every match, if they want to win of course.. Your argument just seems void to me =/ ((and your stop everything and focus elsewhere to warp in units, is only looking mabey a screen length away -if that.))
Yes, but when you warp in those units, you cannot issue them attack-move commands, only move commands. Which means, you need to add them to the appropriated control group and then issue them an attack commend after they finish warping in if you don't want them wandering to their death(so many zealots have lost their lives to this mistake, so many).
But late game TvP must be super frustrating for terrans right now. A year ago, when PvZ was at its worst, I dreaded the match up because I had no idea what the correct responses were. Lucky, it worked itself out and protoss came up with some good mid game builds. Right now there is no "correct" response in the terran in the late game, though there could be in a few months.
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On April 27 2012 19:06 HolyArrow wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 18:31 Ghanburighan wrote:On April 27 2012 18:25 HolyArrow wrote:On April 27 2012 18:19 Fubi wrote:On April 27 2012 17:55 tomatriedes wrote:On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote:On April 27 2012 17:12 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote:
there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting. Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not. um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest. No they don't. It's actually Terran > protoss both in Korea and internationally at tournament level and also in this season's GSL. Why not try actually looking at statistics rather than just making stuff up? http://imgur.com/a/XmBDVand http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?page=1&searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27062&gamever=0&mapid=0&Go=30 I don't know why people keep brining up the stats. The stats for TvP only appears balanced because most of the Ts just do an all-in or some early stim-timing in order to win. I don't call that balance really, when one side is forced to play with a timer, while the other side just has to defend well to win; it's ridiculously frustrating and not fun to both play or watch. In all my time on TL, whenever balance discussion ensues, stats are inevitably brought up, and Terran players are always the one to dismiss them as irrelevant. Kind of funny, no? It also just so happens that the objective numbers often favor Terran. Quite the coincidence, huh? Obviously, the stats aren't everything, but they shouldn't be dismissed altogether. They're the one objective thing we have in the midst of arguments and analyses tainted by personal bias depending on what race someone plays or likes. During the 1-1-1 era when people were giving Puma flak for abusing the 1-1-1 so much, MVP said something along the lines of "I hope people don't give Puma too hard a time. People have to realize that, in the end, winning is the most important thing". What do these stats illustrate? Who's winning the most, that's what. You say that one side is forced to play on a timer while the other side just has to defend well to win, and even if that's true, the stats illustrate that the side that merely "has to defend well to win" actually has quite a harder time defending than your rhetoric implies. Whether or not TvP is fun to watch is an entirely different issue, though watchability has nothing to do with balanace. Overgeneralize much? Let me show you how you'll end up dismissing statistics. The Ro8 is currently 5 P, 3 T, no Z. T outnumbered P in the beginning of the season, but P has had a 70% advancement rate. Now, does that mean you need to accept these statistics and not qualify them in any way? Every race makes their own arguments, and while I agree that statistics are important, different statistics show different things, and the limitations of statistics need to be discussed too. It's only when all different sources of infomation, in conjunction with their limitations, are discussed that we get a clear picture of the overall situation. Well, clearly, the nature of the stats matter. When I mentioned "stats" in that previous post, I only meant winrates, and I see winrates as valid because they are the purest statistic available to see who's actually winning the most in the big picture. Certain types of stats are misleading because they filter out the nitty-gritty information on which race is actually winning overall. As an extreme example, if I took the number of Terrans that won the GSL, compared it to the number of Protosses that won the GSL, and uses that "stat" to whine about Terran being overpowered, that would be ridiculous because it fails to take winrates in the big picture into account. Similarly, the advancement rate you bring up fails to clearly take into account winrates, and it also fails to take into the account the fact that the majority of players at the start of Code S this season were Terran. If we had a Code S with 31 Terrans and 1 Protoss and the Protoss made it to the finals, the Protoss advancement rate would be 100%, but that doesn't really mean much. Let me be absolutely clear by stating my belief that, in the end, all that matters is who wins. If you're winning a majority of the time, you have no business whining about balance, because in the end, despite your complaining, you're still able to win a majority of the time. I also assume that top players of all races are more or less nearly equal in "skill" (putting similar amounts of practice in on the team house schedules, etc.), because if you don't make that assumption, then sure, stats are meaningless in discussing balance. Therefore, winrate stats are extremely pertinent to judging balance.
That's a stupid reasoning; so by your argument, if they buffed marines to 1000 DPS with 100 armor, and also buffed probes to be 50% stronger than now, then all TvP would revolve around the Protoss probe-rushing into micro worker battle to prevent the Terran from getting the first marine out.
Sure, the stats for the above might still end up being 55% to 45% or however close it is, but does that mean the game is balanced? Clearly not; statistics isn't everything, and end-result isn't always everything as well. A retarded overpowered aspect of a race balanced by another overpowered aspect of another race isn't balanced at all, it's pure dumbing down of the game.
And this is exactly what's happening in TvP right now. Most of the T are trying to do some cheese (including eco-cheese) or some +1 stim timing to kill the P early, or else die slowly but painfully in the late game; sure, stats win-ratio looks balanced, but it is pure dumbing down the game, and this isn't what real balance is about.
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EPT
