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On April 28 2012 01:20 p1cKLes wrote:
"We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game." Agreed, but what about the late game of Protoss in TvP.
The problem with fixing the late game TvP is that it is currently a balanced matup win ratio wise. So that means now terran will have an advantage early game, huge advantage midgame, and even late game. How do you propose fixing the early game TvP to keep the matchup balanced? Increasing the strength of the zealot makes lategame hard for terran again, increasing stalker strength makes the blink timings impossible to hold for zerg. Nerfing the marine or marauder is going to make lategame hard again for terran. I'm happy with that MU finally being balanced after 2 years. Making a change to the early game units messes up every matchup's early and late game. I'll stick with a balanced matchup instead of potentially having to redo all of the balancing.
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I'd be wary about using blanket win percentages across all skill levels as reliable data if I were David Kim. Isn't like 80% of all players Platinum and below? Ignore racial balance for sub-diamond leagues and just focus on the top 20% players.
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On April 28 2012 01:25 convention wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 01:20 p1cKLes wrote:
"We’re also continuing to see a slight advantage for terran in terms of opening flexibility and scouting denial. In response, we’re considering offering zerg better scouting options in the early game." Agreed, but what about the late game of Protoss in TvP. The problem with fixing the late game TvP is that it is currently a balanced matup win ratio wise. So that means now terran will have an advantage early game, huge advantage midgame, and even late game. How do you propose fixing the early game TvP to keep the matchup balanced? Increasing the strength of the zealot makes lategame hard for terran again, increasing stalker strength makes the blink timings impossible to hold for zerg. Nerfing the marine or marauder is going to make lategame hard again for terran. I'm happy with that MU finally being balanced after 2 years. Making a change to the early game units messes up every matchup's early and late game. I'll stick with a balanced matchup instead of potentially having to redo all of the balancing.
I’m not sure what the answer is, and maybe there isn’t an answer, but it should at least be explored. Maybe we need to re-evaluate the tank nerf to make mech more viable. Maybe adjust the beginning timings of Terran again for the umpteenth time. Maybe finally figure something out with the damn 250mm cannons that are pretty useless. Like I said, I’m not sure that I have the answer, but I think it should be explored and if ultimately they decide that it can’t be done then that’s the way it is and we’ll have to wait for HotS. Though, I have to think that there is some sort of fix that can be done.
But at the end of the day, I'm with you...balance is key.
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TvP lategame solution: Terrans, don't let the game get to lategame. Fucking duh. Every single one of your units is a harass unit, and you have a little maphack called scan that lets you know exactly what your opponent is doing whenever you want to know (and don't tell me you can't scan because you need to boost your econ... zerg makes that choice every time they drone, and you should have more than 1 orbital midgame anyways). Seriously now: constant harass + effective contain + good scouting = full map control, as early as midgame. I don't know what you T players are bitching about when your shortcomings are your own and not the game's. Agression is your key to victory, but you guys just aren't using it effectively. Protoss early game is hard as fuck... I can't think of a single race more succeptible to being cheesed and rushed more than toss.
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On April 28 2012 01:39 Typesno wrote:
OL speed to tier 1
The only problem with that is that it still costs 100/100, and few people would spend that much gas on that so early. You can start lair for that gas and begin your tech route as opposed to scouting, then 100 gas for lair. Maybe if it was 50/50 I could see it at tier 1.
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On April 28 2012 01:26 Altercate wrote:
I'd be wary about using blanket win percentages across all skill levels as reliable data if I were David Kim. Isn't like 80% of all players Platinum and below? Ignore racial balance for sub-diamond leagues and just focus on the top 20% players.
What makes you think that that's what they are doing? It is not.
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If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Until you get an observer or hallucinations, it is a coinflip matchup. Sure you can TRY to sneak in and see if the terran has an expand (any good terrans will place a bunker far from their natural to avoid probe scouting , so you have to send a zealot or stalker to suicide there). If he is on one base, it can be so many things, from a 3rax SCV all-in to a 1-1-1, both which requires totally different strats to beat.
I am ready to admit lategame PvT is easy, and protoss favored (terrans stay on tier 1 herpderp), but early game is very terran favored. Once they have stim (which should be a 200-200 research since it affects two units and is so game changing), you need colossi or HT, otherwise one misplaced FF can make you lose the game. I play the matchup with both races, and while a terran bioball will most likely lose to a protoss deathball, I think terran has still not figured out how to add in sky (not medivacs) or mech with a mostly bio force.
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On April 27 2012 11:42 usethis2 wrote:
Despite the TvP late game, TvZ late game, and PvZ volatility, you have to hand it to Blizzard. Compared to the situation the game was in 2 years ago, the races are much more balanced today. And it will only get better.
I personally think Blizzard is doing a very good job at balancing. Impatient voices will always ring loud every other week when one race's showing is weak - my advice for them is to be patient. It is also foolish to think that Blizzard lacks the data or tool to measure the state of the game, balance-wise. Criticism such as "OMG they balance for the bronze," is completely misplaced.
A very good post in my opinion.
Regarding TvP lategame, with the Korean-only stats showing 54% winrate in TvP, wouldn't this mean that TvP early game is even more skewed in the favour of the Terran?
I do feel that we are at a shift in the metagame now and that given a bit of time, Terran's will figure a way to beat the current Protoss composition.
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On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:I am ready to admit lategame PvT is easy, and protoss favored (terrans stay on tier 1 herpderp)
Implying that anything else is viable, HERP DERP.
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On April 28 2012 01:54 Rob28 wrote:
TvP lategame solution: Terrans, don't let the game get to lategame. Fucking duh. Every single one of your units is a harass unit, and you have a little maphack called scan that lets you know exactly what your opponent is doing whenever you want to know (and don't tell me you can't scan because you need to boost your econ... zerg makes that choice every time they drone, and you should have more than 1 orbital midgame anyways). Seriously now: constant harass + effective contain + good scouting = full map control, as early as midgame. I don't know what you T players are bitching about when your shortcomings are your own and not the game's. Agression is your key to victory, but you guys just aren't using it effectively. Protoss early game is hard as fuck... I can't think of a single race more succeptible to being cheesed and rushed more than toss. And I suggested adjusting Terran’s early game? To make both T and P more balanced throughout the timeline. I know that Terran’s early game is strong, just as I know Protoss’s late game is strong, but even all that aside… is there a reason to be a d1ck? “fucking..duh.” I come to these forums, because the people tend to be more mature, and I’m not seeing that at all in your post. All I’m seeing is a person that takes this game way too seriously and is wound up tighter than 3 dollar german mouse trap.
I would remind you to breath and have a nice day 
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On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting.
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Am I the only one who looks at those numbers and thinks "holy shit this game is so balanced!?"
I see an awful lot of balance talk for a game that looks almost perfect...
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You can't trust those numbers. Certain cheeses are strong and we don't know how many people cheese. Getting nerf for X races macro game because it has high winratio in total because of cheese is absurd. I hope they note that.
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On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting.
because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything
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On April 28 2012 02:04 blackbrrd wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 11:42 usethis2 wrote:
Despite the TvP late game, TvZ late game, and PvZ volatility, you have to hand it to Blizzard. Compared to the situation the game was in 2 years ago, the races are much more balanced today. And it will only get better.
I personally think Blizzard is doing a very good job at balancing. Impatient voices will always ring loud every other week when one race's showing is weak - my advice for them is to be patient. It is also foolish to think that Blizzard lacks the data or tool to measure the state of the game, balance-wise. Criticism such as "OMG they balance for the bronze," is completely misplaced. A very good post in my opinion. Regarding TvP lategame, with the Korean-only stats showing 54% winrate in TvP, wouldn't this mean that TvP early game is even more skewed in the favour of the Terran? I do feel that we are at a shift in the metagame now and that given a bit of time, Terran's will figure a way to beat the current Protoss composition.
The korean only stats are 50%, the rest (ie EU and NA) are balanced. Or am I looking at different numbers than you are?
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On April 28 2012 01:47 p1cKLes wrote:
I’m not sure what the answer is, and maybe there isn’t an answer, but it should at least be explored. Maybe we need to re-evaluate the tank nerf to make mech more viable. Maybe adjust the beginning timings of Terran again for the umpteenth time. Maybe finally figure something out with the damn 250mm cannons that are pretty useless. Like I said, I’m not sure that I have the answer, but I think it should be explored and if ultimately they decide that it can’t be done then that’s the way it is and we’ll have to wait for HotS. Though, I have to think that there is some sort of fix that can be done.
But at the end of the day, I'm with you...balance is key.
Strike Cannons were an awful design choice. I can't believe that their intended use was for anything but Immortals. The mana bar basically prevents its use though. That brief change to make it a cooldown and not mana based ability didn't really work either, although I wish they gave it more time.
High Templars are the main bane of mech or air terran, in my opinion. I'm not really sure what change would make more Terran strategies other than bio-centric in that matchup work though.
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Hm, I'm not a zerg player, but what would y'all think about this solution to early zerg scouting:
A manually activatable skill on overlords that gives speed boost for short duration.
For example, %100 speed boost for 10 seconds, with a cooldown of 60 seconds. (numbers subject to modification, of course)
Would this solve the problem without having side-effects or unintended consequences in mid and late game?
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On April 28 2012 01:55 Rkie wrote:The only problem with that is that it still costs 100/100, and few people would spend that much gas on that so early. You can start lair for that gas and begin your tech route as opposed to scouting, then 100 gas for lair. Maybe if it was 50/50 I could see it at tier 1.
Then it's their loss. That's such a ridiculously good buff, to be honest. I actually don't even think it's necessary, considering Zergs have quickly learned the timings for when a stargate or mass gateways or other important structures get thrown down, so they sacrifice a slow overlord for the intelligence. And quite frankly, if you're not willing to sacrifice 4 of your mineral drones to put down an extractor (or a second one, whatever) and get a fully saturated geyser going (out of the 60 drones you undoubtedly have anyway), then you've made a calculated risk that either you can live with slow overlords (for the time being- as Zergs have been doing just fine for over a year now) or you can live without absolutely perfect scouting for the entire game (because let's be honest, fast overlords are immaculate scouts, in the same way overseers are).
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On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything
You have to have in mind that WG is far more important and that it takes forever to research. And when its done it can be too late.
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EPT
