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On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything
Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up?
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On April 28 2012 02:21 Derrida wrote:
Hm, I'm not a zerg player, but what would y'all think about this solution to early zerg scouting:
A manually activatable skill on overlords that gives speed boost for short duration.
For example, %100 speed boost for 10 seconds, with a cooldown of 60 seconds. (numbers subject to modification, of course)
Would this solve the problem without having side-effects or unintended consequences in mid and late game?
I'd like this if it was a one time cast. That way there would be another element of strategy involved when positioning overlords.
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after near 2years game devs still dont make a diference between late mid and early game on their fancy stats.
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On April 28 2012 02:30 CyDe wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:21 Derrida wrote:
Hm, I'm not a zerg player, but what would y'all think about this solution to early zerg scouting:
A manually activatable skill on overlords that gives speed boost for short duration.
For example, %100 speed boost for 10 seconds, with a cooldown of 60 seconds. (numbers subject to modification, of course)
Would this solve the problem without having side-effects or unintended consequences in mid and late game? I'd like this if it was a one time cast. That way there would be another element of strategy involved when positioning overlords.
Agreed, or if it just killed the overlord after the ability wore off. That would allow players to scout and truely "sack" an overlord, while not changing the game in any realistic way.
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On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up?
I...I dont even know how to respond to this.
You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so.
Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available.
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On April 28 2012 02:31 Tsuki.eu wrote:
after near 2years game devs still dont make a diference between late mid and early game on their fancy stats.
Yes they do. They just don't show it to us.
Also, last I checked, a win in the early game counts just as much as a win in the late came no?
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On April 27 2012 16:16 babysimba wrote:
Blizzard please make your job easier for yourself in HOTS. A game that has asymmetrical races design should always have a large component of "skill" that players can control to overcome any imbalances. For example, the 12 unit selection in bw results in an infinite skill ceiling for players controlling large army. It doesn't have to be exactly the same as bw, but sc2 is in seriously need of something can better differentiate the better players from the worse. Right now, sc2 is so finely balanced just based on the "strategical" aspect. More often, you hear casters saying players making mistakes to lose their lead instead of the opposing player play spectacularly to make a comeback. Go figure.
Can we stop this nonsense please? First of all, SC2 is a strategy game so rewarding a better strategy is always a good thing. Second of all, it's beyond dumb to make game interface that of 10 years ago just for the sake of it. There might be typing contests around if you want to see how fast you are.
Last but not least, you can already do what you suggest RIGHT NOW. No one stops you from grouping your buildings and units in limited numbers. If that gets you more wins, you should keep doing it. Others might follow the suit. However, it doesn't follow why you must FORCE others to do it.
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On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up?
Halluc should really come standard for all the use it gets at any level of the game. Might need tweaking though to limit you to units you actually have tech for...
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I wish zergs got scans just like terrans do!
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David Kim is straight up incompetent. If 70 % winration on a map is fine then I won't stick around for heart of the swarm
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why not just make scan an upgrade? will that level the playing field?
for lategame tvp. ravens and pdd can help. Seeker missle needs to be cheaper to cast, faster like old inferster fungal missile, but not as much damage. Maybe like 60 damage. whatever it is it just needs to be tweaked to be usable
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Flying factory is the key, I swear any terran who knows how to abuse factory locations or high points on maps, checks for observers and constantly move their army are the biggest threat. For example, on tal-darim altar there is a large area above the third where the factory is extremely hard to hit and lets the terran have good vision of how the protoss has split their army.
Not saying PvT lategame is not shunted towards the protoss but so many terrans just bitch and whine at me when they are obviously not abusing their race to the fullest.
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On April 28 2012 02:35 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? I...I dont even know how to respond to this. You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so. Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available.
And I am pointing out that it is a bad plan for "early game scouting", since it cost 100/100 and the robo cost 200/100. The robo advances the tech tree, does not require chrono and can be built while warpgate is being researched. If the ability did not conflict with warpgate, it might be useful in the early game, but no in its current set up.
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On April 28 2012 02:36 Stanlot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? Halluc should really come standard for all the use it gets at any level of the game. Might need tweaking though to limit you to units you actually have tech for...
The problem is that is it on the sentry and the other two spells are far more useful and necessary. Researchable spells are questionable if they do not do something amazing, like storm.
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On April 28 2012 02:35 SKYFISH_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? I...I dont even know how to respond to this. You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so. Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available.
But it's actually not a viable option for Protoss players in PvT, because of how gas heavy Protoss is (especially in the early game) and how necessary another cybernetics core upgrade is immediately: warp gate tech. All ranged units require gas, and any sentries simply must exclusively be reserved for guardian shield and forcefields. There's really no way Protosses can afford the sentry energy or gas for hallucinations. It's extremely rare to see it, even in a pro game (and it's such a risk).
Note how quickly Protosses need to get both geysers to start their gas collection, as opposed to Zergs and Terrans. And Protosses are still starved for gas in the early game. It's because they're so gas heavy, and in the early game those stalkers for range and speed and the sentries for defensive spells are absolute necessities.
Generally, what Protosses do is poke forwards with a stalker or two up the ramp, see a marine or two, and that's about it until whenever the observer comes out (which may be too late to react to a Terran build).
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3815 Posts
On April 28 2012 02:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:35 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? I...I dont even know how to respond to this. You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so. Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available. And I am pointing out that it is a bad plan for "early game scouting", since it cost 100/100 and the robo cost 200/100. The robo advances the tech tree, does not require chrono and can be built while warpgate is being researched. If the ability did not conflict with warpgate, it might be useful in the early game, but no in its current set up.
In addition, most Protoss players don't get that many Sentries against Terran. Using Hallu means you're sacrificing FFs, and, more important, Guardian Shield, which is essential against Marine pushes.
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On April 28 2012 02:43 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On April 28 2012 02:35 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:26 Plansix wrote:On April 28 2012 02:14 SKYFISH_ wrote:On April 28 2012 02:07 BronzeKnee wrote:On April 28 2012 02:02 Patate wrote:
If you guys think zerg early game scout is bad, imagine protoss vs terran..
Yeah I don't understand why Blizzard didn't mention this. Basically Protoss has Probes and Stalkers to scout with early game, and Drones, Lings and Overlords are simply superior for early game scouting. because you can research hallucination for what, 50/100 was it, and get a full scout on everything Do I get that after warpgate and have it finish right when the 2 rax push is comming and I need the 100 sentry engery to hold it off? Serioulsy, no reasonable protoss is going to tell terrans to "go mech". Why would you think hallucination is going to be useful in the match up? I...I dont even know how to respond to this. You complained about the inability to scout and I pointed you to the mean to do so. Its not free, its not perfect but its present and available. And I am pointing out that it is a bad plan for "early game scouting", since it cost 100/100 and the robo cost 200/100. The robo advances the tech tree, does not require chrono and can be built while warpgate is being researched. If the ability did not conflict with warpgate, it might be useful in the early game, but no in its current set up.
actually thinking about it there is no reason it couldnt just be a free upgrade the comes with sentry but you can limit the time frame it comes out by giving a heavy energy cost to it 125 -150 should keep a fast sentry from getting a TOO early scout in
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Would like to see what some of you guys think about OTHER things that could be balanced by Mr. Kim?
Here's the thought that immediately came to mind...
David Kim on football:
"Kickers at lower levels, around the 4-7 year age range, seem to be having trouble elevating the ball through the goal posts on field goals and extra points. Therefore, we've decided to lower them, so that the lower crossbar stands two feet in the air instead of nine, and you are now allowed to throw the ball through the posts, so long as you get the throwing upgrade for kickers by crossing the 50 yard line"
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Man with those imba scans, it's clear that T plays with full game knowledge! Therefore, T should never lose to stuff like 2 base bane/roach timings or 1 base trickery, or getting fooled that 2base8gate is not 3nexus.
No one that has any objective view on the game should be able to say that any race has good, or even perfect scouting. All races play extremely in the dark, and have the make decisions as such. Go watch any top T replay, most of the time, there's practically no extra information other than the implicit stuff that they read from unit counts/gasses etc.
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On April 28 2012 02:54 architecture wrote:
Man with those imba scans, it's clear that T plays with full game knowledge! Therefore, T should never lose to stuff like 2 base bane/roach timings or 1 base trickery, or getting fooled that 2base8gate is not 3nexus.
No one that has any objective view on the game should be able to say that any race has good, or even perfect scouting. All races play extremely in the dark, and have the make decisions as such. Go watch any top T replay, most of the time, there's practically no extra information other than the implicit stuff that they read from unit counts/gasses etc.
you do realize that terran IS strongest early mid game BECAUSE they can react so well with there ease of scouting right?
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EPT
