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On April 27 2012 10:44 Holytornados wrote:Micro better? Terran has the higher skill cap for a reason =D Edit: I like the current balance. I'm curious if they are going to do anything about the map imbalance in the foreseeable future.
ahaha obvious terran player here^^
im really happy with the balance at this state, but earlier scouting might limit terrans options further
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"In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ."
Right David Kim so you're saying that 2 maps in the ladder pool are stacked around 70% against me, as I am terran. Your stats coincidentally echo my own (26 % TvP winrate on Cloud Kingdom, Metal TvZ i have yet to win a game against zerg this season). Remind me again how this is balanced, when other maps are more or less balanced for all races?
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On April 27 2012 16:09 Reasonable wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:41 Jakkerr wrote:On April 27 2012 15:25 Reasonable wrote:
53% my ass. I haven't won a ZvP since the last season. Also, as a zerg player I won a couple of PvTs vs master terrans in custom games having like 40 apm. I don't even know what to suggest, David Kim should know better, he gets payed for it. And don't you think that might be cuz u just suck at ZvP? I play both zerg (high diamond) and protoss (mid masters) and winning ZvP really isn't all that difficult if u know what to do. I'm not sure why every1 is whining about TvP so hard, a few months back, before the EMP patch Terrans were just straight up destroying any death ball. Doesn't sound all that strange to me that T1/T1,5 units get pwned by a T3 caster unit lategame. But yeh... as it seems now terran doesnt have a lot of other options, although I think mech or semi-mech really needs more exploring in TvP. I doubt Blizzard will make big balance changes before Hots, that's just the way Blizzard rolls. Oh no, I don't think I suck at ZvP. It can be as aggravating for P as it is for Z, it is just easier for P to pull it off. You should really get into masters with Z to understand what's going on. Z has absolutely no way to win a game w/o maxed army with BLs or Ultras unless protoss fucks up a timed attack royally. Then when you spend 25 minutes of your life trying to survive time attacks you face a mothership that you need to deal with perfectly. If you mismicro infestors slightly you lose the game instantly without any chance of come back. It is a shit game overall. It can be fun when you actually manage to catch mothership or vortex misses, but aggravation outweighs all the fun by a very large margin.
Cause Blizzard fked up with the design of SCII.
The current metagame is pretty much: Player 1 is doing this so Player 2 has to do this or he dies.
Player 2 cant do this, or that or these things cause there is only 1 proper option.
That makes games boring to watch/play but it's something that can't be fixed before Hots.
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Well actually when IMMVP played Hero on Antiga, even though MVP continued to drop the main, attack the 3rd, kiting zealot and archons, dodging storm like a boss, Hero lived way too long. So If you need godly pro player micro to win a TvP late game while protoss is just warping and 1a zealot while storming with way less unit than the terran, I don't think this is balanced at all.
It used to be unbalanced for protoss because it took a very very long time before protoss started using a lot more storm and making build that opens with it, so they nerf ghost emp. But now that they've learn how to use storm effectively, late game TvP has become a lot harder for terran. Now I feel like storm should be nerf by reducing dmg/s or the area of effect of storm. In today's TvP late game, if you eat 1 or 2 storms, its almost sure you lose the fight because your marine will just melt instanly even if you have like 8 medivacs. The only way I win late game TvP is when I can kill the ob, cloak and snipe all his HT and then emp his whole army which almost never happens. Another thing that is way too storng with HT is that even though you manage to emp them all, the protoss will just back up a bite, morph them all in archon and then they have an army with like 7-8 archons and then you need to emp all those new archon again.
What does terran has as a aoe in his bio army? Emp, which got nerf, but still effective although it doesn't kill like storms. On the other way protoss has archon, storm and colossus. The problem is that you can't almost never engage a protoss army if he doesn't want to. He can force field you or keep you away with storms and wait until he gets the perfect army composition then he 1a storm and you die and then they say, well you got to harass me then. Alright buddy I tried but you got freaking HT and canons all over the place ready to feedback my damn medivacs so I can't drop you! So then you start nuking his expansion all over the place but for those who have seen Jinro vs Brown in Jinro's most recent replay pack, it still doesn't work, because by the time you've made all your nuke and start nuking, he moves out and just kill you and once you lose a fight against protoss he just warp in 10 zealots and start destroying your expos and its gg. On the other side, when you are about to win a damn fight because he attacked you and you had that great perfect arc and you emped all his zealot because he 1a move and they were all clump up he just warp in an full round of unit and then you have to kite those damn zealot all the way back to your home and by this time he warped in a couple of HT and made some colossus and he just lost nothing.
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On April 27 2012 16:25 Kich wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:15 SoniC_eu wrote:
Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) This isn't a shot at you, but it's pretty much explicitly because you haven't learned how to deal with it yet. It's also highly suspect that you make the assumption that they're microing any less or more than yourself, or macroing any less or more than yourself. Ghosts focus sniping or emping high templar along with spreading out your army isn't easy, but it's something you'll have to get good at if you want to move on. Keep in mind that on a protoss' end managing High Templar's are very difficult, they're an absolutely tremendous investment and their speed and low health make them hard to keep alive. Without those templar, terran infantry is objectively stronger than protoss infantry.
I'd agree with you if so many really good terrans and players weren't saying the exact same thing as people here. I feel that way in TvZ. When I lose I watch the replay and see where I went wrong. It's usually easy to pinpoint key errors in your play and see where you can improve. In TvP you can be clearly winning, up in supply, floating less, etc. and just get crushed in one fight and while you're remaking 20-30 supply at a time, he is already 200/200
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On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair?
You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro.
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You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro.
Right... Because Thors are so good late game TvP... So Thors should 1 shot a pack of zealots by your definition? And I guess the top Protosses in the world don't have zealots 20 minutes into the game?
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On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro.
lolol.. what other unit do you suggest then?? MAUROODER SO OP VS TOSS TROLLLLL... please. The more marauders you have in your late game comp, the harder chargelot/archon is going to poop on you. Ghosts are a good unit to mix in a lot but they are expensive and difficult to retain vs collosus/storm/chargelot/anything. And more than marines die to storm, vikings, medivacs, hellions, banshee all. Marines are terran's only option in so many matchups because mech is crap.
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On April 27 2012 16:33 SupLilSon wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:25 Kich wrote:On April 27 2012 16:15 SoniC_eu wrote:
Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) This isn't a shot at you, but it's pretty much explicitly because you haven't learned how to deal with it yet. It's also highly suspect that you make the assumption that they're microing any less or more than yourself, or macroing any less or more than yourself. Ghosts focus sniping or emping high templar along with spreading out your army isn't easy, but it's something you'll have to get good at if you want to move on. Keep in mind that on a protoss' end managing High Templar's are very difficult, they're an absolutely tremendous investment and their speed and low health make them hard to keep alive. Without those templar, terran infantry is objectively stronger than protoss infantry. I'd agree with you if so many really good terrans and players weren't saying the exact same thing as people here. I feel that way in TvZ. When I lose I watch the replay and see where I went wrong. It's usually easy to pinpoint key errors in your play and see where you can improve. In TvP you can be clearly winning, up in supply, floating less, etc. and just get crushed in one fight and while you're remaking 20-30 supply at a time, he is already 200/200
You know how Protoss has to make cannons and leave units behind to stop drop play right? That takes resources. Try making Planetary Fortresses on your side of the map to get favorable engagements and give you time to remax. Also, could you name some Terrans that are having these issues? I haven't heard of this. Snipe outranges templar, use that to your advantage.
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People are still whining about how long it took for MVP to kill HerO on Antiga? Do these people not realize that MVP suddenly decided that he didn't want to use Ghosts anymore? A few good EMPs/Snipes and the game would have been over far sooner.
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On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro.
This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not.
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Overseer earlier than lair tech? I think this would work well, also giving zerg that needed detection.
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On April 27 2012 16:43 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:33 SupLilSon wrote:On April 27 2012 16:25 Kich wrote:On April 27 2012 16:15 SoniC_eu wrote:
Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) This isn't a shot at you, but it's pretty much explicitly because you haven't learned how to deal with it yet. It's also highly suspect that you make the assumption that they're microing any less or more than yourself, or macroing any less or more than yourself. Ghosts focus sniping or emping high templar along with spreading out your army isn't easy, but it's something you'll have to get good at if you want to move on. Keep in mind that on a protoss' end managing High Templar's are very difficult, they're an absolutely tremendous investment and their speed and low health make them hard to keep alive. Without those templar, terran infantry is objectively stronger than protoss infantry. I'd agree with you if so many really good terrans and players weren't saying the exact same thing as people here. I feel that way in TvZ. When I lose I watch the replay and see where I went wrong. It's usually easy to pinpoint key errors in your play and see where you can improve. In TvP you can be clearly winning, up in supply, floating less, etc. and just get crushed in one fight and while you're remaking 20-30 supply at a time, he is already 200/200 You know how Protoss has to make cannons and leave units behind to stop drop play right? That takes resources. Try making Planetary Fortresses on your side of the map to get favorable engagements and give you time to remax. Also, could you name some Terrans that are having these issues? I haven't heard of this. Snipe outranges templar, use that to your advantage.
How about Cloud, Beastyqt, Demuslim, Kas, Nada, MMA just off the top of my head.
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On April 27 2012 16:40 vthree wrote:Show nested quote +
You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro.
Right... Because Thors are so good late game TvP... So Thors should 1 shot a pack of zealots by your definition? And I guess the top Protosses in the world don't have zealots 20 minutes into the game?
Sigh. Just because a Thor is tier 3 doesn't make it good versus everything, just like the templar isn't good versus everything. Protoss might have zealots 20 minutes into the game but thats not all they have. They have tier 2/3 units as well, zealots are there as buffer. Terrans will stick with only marine marauder and then complain like many are how OP Protoss is. Get better with ghosts. They outrange templars and should theoratically never get a hit on your units. By the way, in a straight up tier 1 battle, stalker/zealot vs marine/marauder Terran will win every time, so stop complaining please.
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On April 27 2012 16:48 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:43 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:33 SupLilSon wrote:On April 27 2012 16:25 Kich wrote:On April 27 2012 16:15 SoniC_eu wrote:
Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) This isn't a shot at you, but it's pretty much explicitly because you haven't learned how to deal with it yet. It's also highly suspect that you make the assumption that they're microing any less or more than yourself, or macroing any less or more than yourself. Ghosts focus sniping or emping high templar along with spreading out your army isn't easy, but it's something you'll have to get good at if you want to move on. Keep in mind that on a protoss' end managing High Templar's are very difficult, they're an absolutely tremendous investment and their speed and low health make them hard to keep alive. Without those templar, terran infantry is objectively stronger than protoss infantry. I'd agree with you if so many really good terrans and players weren't saying the exact same thing as people here. I feel that way in TvZ. When I lose I watch the replay and see where I went wrong. It's usually easy to pinpoint key errors in your play and see where you can improve. In TvP you can be clearly winning, up in supply, floating less, etc. and just get crushed in one fight and while you're remaking 20-30 supply at a time, he is already 200/200 You know how Protoss has to make cannons and leave units behind to stop drop play right? That takes resources. Try making Planetary Fortresses on your side of the map to get favorable engagements and give you time to remax. Also, could you name some Terrans that are having these issues? I haven't heard of this. Snipe outranges templar, use that to your advantage. How about Cloud, Beastyqt, Demuslim, Kas, Nada, MMA just off the top of my head.
Links to these posts please?
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He made a good point about imbalance in maps. They do make the game more interesting, because it forces the player away from doing the same stuff all the time.
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On April 27 2012 16:28 SoniC_eu wrote:
"In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ."
Right David Kim so you're saying that 2 maps in the ladder pool are stacked around 70% against me, as I am terran. Your stats coincidentally echo my own (26 % TvP winrate on Cloud Kingdom, Metal TvZ i have yet to win a game against zerg this season). Remind me again how this is balanced, when other maps are more or less balanced for all races?
when you think about it, it's a terrible idea for balancing. not only you have three races that are not equally strong at different stages of the game, the map pools can also make an unbalanced game look seemingly balance.
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On April 27 2012 16:46 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro. This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not.
Really? Ghosts, Vikings, Ravens seem pretty viable to me, just to mention some. Raven is underrated in my opinion.
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Now what he is saying is like the complete opposite of the current GSL standings.
They should wait for one more GSL to finish after this one to make sure they don´t fuck up.
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On April 27 2012 16:53 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:46 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro. This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not. Really? Ghosts, Vikings, Ravens seem pretty viable to me, just to mention some. Raven is underrated in my opinion.
Ravens are not viable because SM is horrible. Battlecruisers are not viable. Thors are not viable versus Protoss, and somewhat viable against zerg. Ghosts have been nerfed into oblivion, and are only viable against Protoss.
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EPT
