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Maps
In our current map pool, we’re seeing that not every map we’ve added to our pool is balanced for every matchup. For example, our data shows a 70% PvT win ratio on Cloud Kingdom, a 62% win ratio in PvZ on Korhal Compound, and a 37% win ratio on Metalopolis for TvZ. It’s worth noting that these represent the heaviest imbalances in the maps on our ladder, but that this also isn’t necessarily a problem.
Because maps where favoured for terran they don't have to be extreemly unfavoured for terran?  Im playing random these days but I find terran really hard at low masters. and I also felt I losed more on that maps with terran so I think they should consider a option to like play gsl(or any tournament) map pool and an option to play their own map pool which is "balanced".
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How do people NOT expect QQ when all Blizzard releases is some arbitrary statistics and gives no hint to their method. Not addressing TvP is blowing my mind and metal map imbalance has been ridiculous on top of some other maps. 70% PvT win on CK and no hint at them giving a damn.
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So I wasn't the only one who thought David was going to talk about the problems in TvP.
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53% my ass. I haven't won a ZvP since the last season. Also, as a zerg player I won a couple of PvTs vs master terrans in custom games having like 40 apm. I don't even know what to suggest, David Kim should know better, he gets payed for it.
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Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself.
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Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well.
imbalance is interesting? Hmm. Well played David.
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On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself.
Learn to use EMP and ghosts.
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Making stats for all leagues is stupid from blizzard side.
At low lvls there are no such thing as balance, it's completely irrelevant. Even in the most imbalanced game, when not played proper it's always the best player who wins, because you gain advantage simply by better mechanics.
They should at minimum, only take stats from diamond and up, maybe even master/grandmaster only, to get stats of the actual imbalance. In lower leagues, the stats is a bit random tbh.
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I don't agree with him when he imply that Bliz will make adjustment when metagame shifted.
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The cries about TvP late-game have only recently been getting louder in the past month or two. It's understandable that David Kim doesn't want to comment on it yet unless it becomes "a significant issue [...] that is beyond the reach of metagame changes". Some may argue that this is already the case but it really is too hard to call (look how quickly the seemingly unbeatable 1-1-1 passed for example).
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What im really worried about is that they do what they did in WoW when it comes to "balance". They give every race something for every situation and make them more and more similar to eachother, because that is the easiest way to balance things.
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I always feel bad for David Kim and Dustin Browder. They can never win lol.
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On April 27 2012 14:09 IshinShishi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 13:15 Doublemint wrote:On April 27 2012 13:09 avilo wrote:
I think at this point I may have to start collecting and casting TvP replays from pro players where the Terran wins the big battles and is up 30-70 supply and protoss still is in the game and ends up winning from hitting psi storms. It's depressing they still do not address TvP lategame after all this time (TvZ lategame isn't much better after the ghost nerf).
It's also disappointing that a balance designer is equating winrate statistics with how the game is currently being played/the metagame. Statistics have NOTHING, absolutely nothing to do with the current metagame. I am genuinely interested in games like the ones described by you. Terran has to eat ALL the storms and mess up big time to still lose after being ahead 30 - 70(!) supply - and I am not even sure then it´s a done deal for the Toss. You only need to watch the recent highest level TvP games, plenty of games where terran has a 30+ supply advantage and nothing happens, while when the protoss manages to get the same supply advantage, the game is kinda over, terran can't hold anything down in supply vs toss, that's just some made up bullshit, this concept only applies to TvZ where tanks, bunkers and walls are much more cost effective.But still, if terran still has a higher win ratio then it makes no sense to buff terran or nerf protoss.I wish we could have a major change regardless of the winrates, but that's unrealistic.
That´s how it works - Collossi are damn expensive and naturally more cost effective and so is Storm, while MMM is apart from Medivacs/Vikings hardly gas heavy and easier to replace.
Protoss lategame is stronger mainly because gateway only units get smashed by MMM - they need strong AOE - which Terran "gets" pretty early in comparison. Stimmed marines anyone? The only thing coming close to the damage output of stimmed Marines is Collossi/Storm. So yeah it is correct that early - mid game T is favored and late it is rather P favored but far from unwinnable for either party if they play well.
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On April 27 2012 15:27 kmillz wrote:
Our current stance on this is we believe slight imbalances in maps actually make the game more interesting, as long as the imbalances aren’t too great. Various new meta games and strategies develop depending on the map, and it’s interesting to see the game play out in different ways as players exploit their own strengths and weaknesses from map to map. We believe a lot of the fun comes from this as well.
imbalance is interesting? Hmm. Well played David.
Well... it does, Cloud kingdom is the only map in the map pool that's even remotely suited to terran mech for instance, for the same reason that it really suits collosus, there's no air space around the main or the edge of the natural so it's difficult to drop and harass, the third is close by cliff to the main, and there are a ton of chokes. Despite this, because so many of the other maps are so bio-friendly there's very few incentives to learn a mech build just for a single map. If the map pool lacks variety then the logic ends up circuitous: bio is the best, therefore all maps should be good for bio, therefore any map that isn't good for bio is a bad map. Ultimately if you really don't want to concentrate on that map, there are vetoes.
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On April 27 2012 15:25 Reasonable wrote:
53% my ass. I haven't won a ZvP since the last season. Also, as a zerg player I won a couple of PvTs vs master terrans in custom games having like 40 apm. I don't even know what to suggest, David Kim should know better, he gets payed for it.
And don't you think that might be cuz u just suck at ZvP?
I play both zerg (high diamond) and protoss (mid masters) and winning ZvP really isn't all that difficult if u know what to do.
I'm not sure why every1 is whining about TvP so hard, a few months back, before the EMP patch Terrans were just straight up destroying any death ball.
Doesn't sound all that strange to me that T1/T1,5 units get pwned by a T3 caster unit lategame.
But yeh... as it seems now terran doesnt have a lot of other options, although I think mech or semi-mech really needs more exploring in TvP.
I doubt Blizzard will make big balance changes before Hots, that's just the way Blizzard rolls.
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all leagues?? seriously? does he think we are stupid?
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All leagues? dumb statistics.
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On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts.
I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair?
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EPT
