EPTI'm curious of how much "adjustments" you can make to your numbers and still get meaningful results.
Would be really helpful to get insight in how they are calculating their numbers.
Talking Balance with David Kim - Page 12
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hegeo
Germany194 Posts
I'm curious of how much "adjustments" you can make to your numbers and still get meaningful results. Would be really helpful to get insight in how they are calculating their numbers. | ||
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MildSeven
Canada311 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:18 ][Primarch][ wrote: David Kim has no idea about balance, he speaks about win ratios but have no idea how the game looks. TvP is a joke, terran late game is a joke. If terran wants to win they have to damage their opponent early on, especially for us causal gamers who can't manage late-game marine-marauder like the best terrans can. I would once again say that David Kim is not competent at all if he is going to continue to be fixated on win ratios. Well i am all in support of opinion that pvt is unbalanced late game, but i don't like the idea of catering to low skill gamers like us just to make it more balance, i mean if the best terrans in the world can find a way with godly marine marauder micro, then that should be how the game is, but then it's unbalanced when you see that even the best terrans in the world struggle with huge advantages and godly micro | ||
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fr0d0b0ls0n
Spain51 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote: Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. They can keep the damage and the radius, but increasing the time for doing full damage will help. And/Or a big ramp up in damage over time... Is ridiculous how well protoss can defend with units that can be warped instant wherever they want and melt armies with one cast. | ||
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Killmour
United States105 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:48 hegeo wrote: Just wondering: Don't you pretty much automatically get "balanced" numbers once you factor out player skill/strength of race at certain levels and take the average of all map specific winrates? I'm curious of how much "adjustments" you can make to your numbers and still get meaningful results. Would be really helpful to get insight in how they are calculating their numbers. I thought the exact same thing. Without info and this being across all leagues just shows that the numbers are totally meaningless. They can be doing whatever they want to "factor out player skill." | ||
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Alejandrisha
United States6565 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote: I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? gave me a nice laugh | ||
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:51 MildSeven wrote: Well i am all in support of opinion that pvt is unbalanced late game, but i don't like the idea of catering to low skill gamers like us just to make it more balance, i mean if the best terrans in the world can find a way with godly marine marauder micro, then that should be how the game is, but then it's unbalanced when you see that even the best terrans in the world struggle with huge advantages and godly micro I rarely see any zergs or protoss do some very basic things that destroy what the top terrans do. There just aren't any comparatively skilled zergs or protoss at the top level. You never see them build static defense and a caster to deny drops. They constantly throw away infestors by 1a with their lings, they keep their HTs clumped up, etc...Maybe it's just in my experience, but even master's league players do these things and completely deny mid/lategame opportunities. The pro zergs consistently get caught with their pants down as they hard drone with no army and no scouting. The top tier protoss don't seem to use a particular immortal/sentry based build but hasn't been countered yet. They just attack with random stalkers and get caught and stimmed to death when they should turtle in their base to 20 minutes. I try to watch gsl as much as I can, but maybe there are pros who do the things I talked about. | ||
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1158 Posts
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Huragius
Lithuania1506 Posts
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freakhill
Japan463 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:18 ][Primarch][ wrote: If terran wants to win they have to damage their opponent early on, especially for us causal gamers who can't manage late-game marine-marauder like the best terrans can. Is that a problem? | ||
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Reasonable
Ukraine1432 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:41 Jakkerr wrote: And don't you think that might be cuz u just suck at ZvP? I play both zerg (high diamond) and protoss (mid masters) and winning ZvP really isn't all that difficult if u know what to do. I'm not sure why every1 is whining about TvP so hard, a few months back, before the EMP patch Terrans were just straight up destroying any death ball. Doesn't sound all that strange to me that T1/T1,5 units get pwned by a T3 caster unit lategame. But yeh... as it seems now terran doesnt have a lot of other options, although I think mech or semi-mech really needs more exploring in TvP. I doubt Blizzard will make big balance changes before Hots, that's just the way Blizzard rolls. Oh no, I don't think I suck at ZvP. It can be as aggravating for P as it is for Z, it is just easier for P to pull it off. You should really get into masters with Z to understand what's going on. Z has absolutely no way to win a game w/o maxed army with BLs or Ultras unless protoss fucks up a timed attack royally. Then when you spend 25 minutes of your life trying to survive time attacks you face a mothership that you need to deal with perfectly. If you mismicro infestors slightly you lose the game instantly without any chance of come back. It is a shit game overall. It can be fun when you actually manage to catch mothership or vortex misses, but aggravation outweighs all the fun by a very large margin. | ||
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di3alot
172 Posts
i saw long a ago an experiment where you had to guess how many beans are in a jar, and the more people did that the closer they got to the right number. yeah numbers don't lie bla bla, but you don't justify balance in a game played by humans with numbers thats so stupid. yeah numbers can help you to see if a matchup is out of ctrl. but you still have to look at the games that provided the numbers to see whats going on and i don't see blizzard doing this. the only thing i hear is: here are some numbers and everything is balanced so stop complaining because we have proof. but when i watch a pro game every game is won by one unit. | ||
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Josh_rakoons
United Kingdom1158 Posts
On April 27 2012 15:52 fr0d0b0ls0n wrote: They can keep the damage and the radius, but increasing the time for doing full damage will help. And/Or a big ramp up in damage over time... Is ridiculous how well protoss can defend with units that can be warped instant wherever they want and melt armies with one cast. I agree with your suggestion, but your statement about "units can be warped instantly wherever they want and melt armies" is just factually wrong, since the upgrade for templars was removed, they can no longer storm instantly on warp in.. Maybe you're just in a lower league and don't know what the other races actually do? | ||
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SoniC_eu
Denmark1008 Posts
Cloud Kingdom TvP I almost insta GG but just play just for the fun of it (TvP cloud kingdom my stats are 26% winrate). Midgame speedlot archon is so strong that you can't attack, u have to bunker up and defend. Late game... Storm are simply insane when the toss are defending (I can be up a base and 40 food but can't finish off my opponent, as he warps in speedlots and templar). While I'm microing my ass off with stutter step, I can't macro as a terran. Meanwhile toss warps in as he mostly a moves with zealot archon and can occaisionally throw FF down. I am stuck on tier 1 MM and tier 2 medivac ghost viking from mid to late game, while toss has many more options. I HAVE to hit each EMP & micro all my units and survive & win each engagement JUST TO STAY IN THE GAME, while 1 storm can eat my army if I mismicro and it changes the whole dynamic of the game. If I lose the engagement badly just once, I am toast. I understand toss are supposedly weaker early game (although with the current metagame, that isn't the case), and therefore stronger late game, but how about balancing it out so that both races are equally strong early and late game? Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) | ||
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Dingobloo
Australia1903 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:09 Josh_rakoons wrote: I agree with your suggestion, but your statement about "units can be warped instantly wherever they want and melt armies" is just factually wrong, since the upgrade for templars was removed, they can no longer storm instantly on warp in.. Maybe you're just in a lower league and don't know what the other races actually do? Not only that but the game needs more of those units, not less. Units that can't be immediately turned into an offense but are excellent on defense with good control and positioning encourage more bases to be taken doubley so because of the resource distribution favoring gas. I'm more partial to a speed nerf to the colossus or even a change to the way that zealots deal damage to make them scale less with upgrades as those two units are extremely good at both attacking and defense. | ||
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babysimba
10466 Posts
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
TvP terran needs another option apart from bio; siege tanks or thors or hellions need to be viable, perhaps take that extra +1 armour the zealot has at the start off or something. At the moment though a lot of TvP imbalance is because of chargelots requiring no micro to be cost-effective and the Protoss splash units can just hide behind the swarm of zealots doing splash with zero risk to getting sniped. | ||
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WickedBit
United States343 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:07 Huragius wrote: Nothing is going to be done in TvP. It's sad, really sad. I already stopped being active on ladder just because of that. 70% of all mine games are against toss what is very depressing and tiring. You must constantly scout for cheeses, take risks and expect to finish the game before late game, because in this match-up you are playing against time as well. With new maps and builds such as Parting's it's freaking hard to even apply non-cheese mid game pressure which is a must in TvP. There is no safe or good build, which wouldn't have a hard counter and scouting is way too limited (You are expecting toss to take a fast third and go double forge when suddenly 3 Immortal 7 gate push comes...). And don't say something fucking bronzy like using scans lol. There is very little good cheeses apart 1/1/1 which would work against mid/high master tosses and when toss knows that 1/1/1 is coming, it's not so hard to defend it. D3 comes soon, so I won't miss competitive sc2 so much. I will try out HotS and if it won't fix the major flaws (flaws to me of course, it's very subjective) I will stick with D3 or even GW2 .Welcome to what Protoss have been complaining about for all this time. Protoss also must constantly scout for Terran cheeses, take risks etc. Now that you, a terran , are complaining about the similar things (except the late game part) the game is close to balance. BTW Parting is probably the best protoss in the world and even great protoss players like MC have trouble replicating his success against terran. It is very premature to presume that just because Parting wins something is imbalanced. Terrans are used to winning against protoss in the first 20 minutes(even under 10 most of the time) of the game which means that with the latest meta-game shift they haven't had as much time figuring out late game. That will take time. And unless you are saying that you are at the same level as parting there is no reason at all why you should whine about imbalance. If you don't like playing SC2 then that's fine but don't make up excuses based on balance. I have a very hard time imagining any protoss duplicating Parting's game to any degree even at GM level. In conclusion any loses you are getting against protoss is because of your gameplay, or lack of it, rather than imbalance. | ||
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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Kich
United States339 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:15 SoniC_eu wrote: Why do I as a terran feel like there is a timer with a bomb attached to it, i.e. that if I don't finish off the toss in 15mins, I might as well GG cos he will win lategame (even tho he doesn't micro or macro as well as I am, but cos he hit some lucky storms, well I lose too much food.) This isn't a shot at you, but it's pretty much explicitly because you haven't learned how to deal with it yet. It's also highly suspect that you make the assumption that they're microing any less or more than yourself, or macroing any less or more than yourself. Ghosts focus sniping or emping high templar along with spreading out your army isn't easy, but it's something you'll have to get good at if you want to move on. Keep in mind that on a protoss' end managing High Templar's are very difficult, they're an absolutely tremendous investment and their speed and low health make them hard to keep alive. Without those templar, terran infantry is objectively stronger than protoss infantry. | ||
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PrivateJimmy
United States21 Posts
At the moment the races are more balanced than they have ever been, its hard to deny this. there is no one strategy that any race can turn to for a free win. The other disparities between the races are unavoidable, and arguably are good for the game in that they set each race apart from the next. Protoss may have an advantage lategame, but it is far a foregone conclusion. I think its safe to say that as strong as they are lategame, they are weak in the early and even mid game to strong timing attacks. It is simply the way that the race works, in a manner that is unique from zerg and terran who have their own strengths and weaknesses. David Kim would be crazy to introduce new changes now that there is relative balance according to their statistics, which are no doubt the most accurate on the subject. | ||
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