EPTTalking Balance with David Kim - Page 15
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WeaponX.7
Canada52 Posts
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iEatWoofers
Switzerland108 Posts
Plus I really want to see more map-specific strategies  (which only really develop if the game doesn't change every 3-4 weeks)And about TvP... I guess Terrans will just have to adjust to not being favored in the midgame anymore (coz protoss can now actually defend @ 2 base vs 2 base). Once they really do that I think their late-game will change too... then we'll see if it's balanced. And well, I guess MMMG just doesn't quite cut it anymore for the late game (hey, protoss can't rely on only 4 different units all game long either). | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:16 Tommylew wrote: yeh all you will have is all terrans whining about the 54% n favour In P, when protoss is probably one of the easiest races at low levels so easier to win at bronze - plat no problem. It's easy at ALL levels, Protoss has the lowest skill cap by far, yet it gets buffed because it's not able to a-move win with any army composition it wants, whilst Terran actually has to micro and macro like a God to win... which is not balanced in any way. The fact Terran has no other viable options where they can trade armies cost effectively other than bio shows that the match up is broken, even as a spectator it is absolutely boring to watch the same army composition OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER... | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:21 WeaponX.7 wrote: Im getting really sick and tired of hearing the nonsensical statement of, "Snipe outranges feedback." Go into the unit tester queue up the commandss for both units at a range and feeback goes first. Not to mention it takes two snipes to kill a templar. I dont understand how a complete lie can last in this debate for so long. Id also like to point out that the stats for TvP dont take into account that since the 111 popularity at least 50% of the terran wins are coming from cheese. If they took the stats for TvP's after 15 mins im sure the number would be skewed much more heavily in protoss favor. There have been some posts about late game win ratios in TvP, just search for "win ratio game length" or something like that. I believe it was something like 65-70% win ratio for Protoss past 15 minutes. | ||
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KiLLJoy216
United States71 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote: um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest. Protoss makes it to GSL finally and all Terran's QQing. Do Terran's recall that every previous GSL Terran was OP and dominating it? And I think there are more Terrans in GSL overall than Protoss. | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On April 27 2012 16:45 HolyArrow wrote: People are still whining about how long it took for MVP to kill HerO on Antiga? Do these people not realize that MVP suddenly decided that he didn't want to use Ghosts anymore? A few good EMPs/Snipes and the game would have been over far sooner. its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units.. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote: um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest. which part of the OP didn't you understand? so what, it's 56% in Europe right now, everything else is in the 55%-balanced zone. And I'm having fun with GSL PvP, it's a very nice matchup when played by two good people (=GSL level). Not to mention that there are more Terrans in the GSL, so if you want to complain about a matchup being played to much, it's TvT. | ||
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delayed reflex
Canada358 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:14 InoyouS2 wrote: Simple fix, get rid of zealot +1 base armour, it's the only starting unit that has armour, yet it's meant to be a light unit that is easily massable. Even hellions are not good against zealots because they don't line up as much, and charge lets them surround without the fear of getting AOE'd. Chargelots are the reason for the imbalance in the matchup in nearly every pro game I've seen, and I can see the same problems in ladder games; zealots can be massed too easily and the Terran has no splash that can beat them. That would completely break early game balance. Zealot vs. zergling and zealot vs. marine early game that 1 armor is pretty important. Maybe Terrans have to figure out a way to make reapers viable late-game - they eat zealots for breakfast, but they die faster than ants. Might be even better at sniping templar than using marauders. Maybe a late-game upgrade that lets them get built by regular barracks or reactors? | ||
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KiLLJoy216
United States71 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:21 Scila wrote: Seeker Missile is NEVER seen in proplay because it is a really bad ability. "Wall of turrets" you're just grasping at straws now. I didn't say ghosts were bad in TvP. I said they were bad TvZ, and were overall nerfed too hard. You really have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly don't watch enough streams if you haven't seen Terrans using seeker missile. And your argument that because it isn't used means its not viable is what is grasping at straws. I remember beta when Terran only went blind viking and marine/marauder and didn't use ghost. If everyone thought like you Terrans would have never started using the ghost. I agree snipe was nerfed too hard but the ghost is still very much viable. | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:24 Tommylew wrote: its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units.. Not actually seeing the replay, your advice is pretty stupid. Terrans can't just attack into a Protoss once you have one of your tier 3 AoE units out, we need to have the counter. So you tech to Collossi, we need to start making vikings or else we'll die. It's not as easy to pressure a well prepared Protoss that has stalkers/cannons around his base. You get the 3rd and Templars start coming in. And this is while the Terran is still trying to guess is he still making Collossi or is he gonna switch to Templars. If he makes 2 Templars and uses the rest on Collossi, I just lose if I overmake ghosts. And same if I overmake vikings. And the worst part is, even if I win a fight, I can't push into your base. You can literally have guys waiting for me without any rally time. And tanks? lol ok, tanks vs upgraded zealots that don't die, splash onto already weak bio ball | ||
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Chaggi
Korea (South)1936 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:26 delayed reflex wrote: That would completely break early game balance. Zealot vs. zergling and zealot vs. marine early game that 1 armor is pretty important. Maybe Terrans have to figure out a way to make reapers viable late-game - they eat zealots for breakfast, but they die faster than ants. Might be even better at sniping templar than using marauders. Maybe a late-game upgrade that lets them get built by regular barracks or reactors? reapers are a good unit but they take too long to make. They do a lot of DPS and they're not as flimsy as people think, I think it's about the same as a marine with stim. | ||
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Mehukannu
Finland421 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:00 KiLLJoy216 wrote: :/ seems like you just don't want to try new things. The seeker missile is really powerful when it lands, and the raven has other abilities too. You can make a wall with turrets to funnel zealots and the point defense drone is really good especially early game. Ghosts are really good TvP, don't see why people keep saying otherwise. They outrange templar with snipe and EMP is really effective. It definitely isn't about not trying new things. It is about getting those things safely and not getting too much behind in economy versus protoss. HSM is just a really bad ability to use against protoss units. Using them on zealots are very dangerous since using it in a fight will probably kill your units rather than zealots and the other units you would probably use it on like stalkers are way back in the protoss army where risk of getting your ravens feedbacked by high templars. As for using auto-turrets to funnel zealots, you would have to use them before you engage your enemy, which can be quite hard since it is hard to force protoss to engage in that kind of positioning. There is basically nothing that would prevent protoss to just back off from the fight either. Still it can be useful if you are engaging near the protoss main or expo, but that depend a lot about the map though. I think the reason people say ghost are bad is because of the snipe change, which made it even harder to deal with heavy zealot armies than it already was. | ||
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Snowbear
Korea (South)1925 Posts
--> give zerg better scouting TvZ: lategame broodlord infestor not possible to beat if you are not in an advantage --> help zerg to get an even bigger advantage (scouting) early game PvT 56% in Europe --> the terran race is fine! | ||
Torte de Lini
Germany38463 Posts
Interesting. Other than this, I felt like I read nothing. | ||
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InoyouS2
1005 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:24 Tommylew wrote: its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units.. Ghosts got nerfed into the ground... You wait until you get templar and zealot (150/150 in mins/gas, ghosts are 200/100) nerfed that hard, and you'll be trying to use it less in your unit composition to compensate for the lower usability. One of the major problems in TvP is the fact the Protoss has a huge amount of options, and Terran has one option, and because tech switching as Terran takes the longest of all the races it is not smart to even try to switch out of M&M&M lategame TvP. Also the majority of Terran wins across ALL leagues come from the Korean ladder which showcases players who have astounding macro and micro, in EU and US the balance is way off, Protoss is winning in GSL now as well which basically means they are winning everywhere, due to the fact that Koreans don't like playing Protoss because there is less of a challenge because it's too "ezpz". | ||
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KiLLJoy216
United States71 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:30 Chaggi wrote: Not actually seeing the replay, your advice is pretty stupid. Terrans can't just attack into a Protoss once you have one of your tier 3 AoE units out, we need to have the counter. So you tech to Collossi, we need to start making vikings or else we'll die. It's not as easy to pressure a well prepared Protoss that has stalkers/cannons around his base. You get the 3rd and Templars start coming in. And this is while the Terran is still trying to guess is he still making Collossi or is he gonna switch to Templars. If he makes 2 Templars and uses the rest on Collossi, I just lose if I overmake ghosts. And same if I overmake vikings. And the worst part is, even if I win a fight, I can't push into your base. You can literally have guys waiting for me without any rally time. And tanks? lol ok, tanks vs upgraded zealots that don't die, splash onto already weak bio ball wow.... its called a scan. You scan the ramp or main of Protoss and 9/10 you will see what path they are going and what units they have. I don't see how people can be so blind... | ||
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Tommylew
Wales2717 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:23 InoyouS2 wrote: It's easy at ALL levels, Protoss has the lowest skill cap by far, yet it gets buffed because it's not able to a-move win with any army composition it wants, whilst Terran actually has to micro and macro like a God to win... which is not balanced in any way. The fact Terran has no other viable options where they can trade armies cost effectively other than bio shows that the match up is broken, even as a spectator it is absolutely boring to watch the same army composition OVER AND OVER AND OVER AND OVER... yeh and at Diamond all I see is MMM all game long, never anything such as ghosts or tanks to go with it... then they wonder why they lose to 3 base Storms and collussus and they dont even bother moving marines out of storms, dont try dropping and dont try any type fo pressure and then whine balance... perhpas its not so much protoss is easy but when the terran just sits in their base doesnt drop and doesnt do anything other then the MMM composition that protoss now know how to deal with it... mix it up, go mech try drops.. go ghosts. Dont play the same way everygame and wondfer why Protoss have adapted to actually beat it, the is a reason why people like Polt etc have no problem with protoss.. | ||
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Scila
Canada1849 Posts
On April 27 2012 17:29 KiLLJoy216 wrote: You clearly don't want enough streams if you haven't seen Terrans using seeker missile. And your argument that because it isn't used means its not viable is what is grasping at straws. I remember beta when Terran only went blind viking and marine/marauder and didn't use ghost. If everyone thought like you Terrans would have never started using the ghost. I agree snipe was nerfed too hard but the ghost is still very much viable. Just because some players may have tried using it doesn't mean its viable durrr. Viable: able to be used effectively for the length of the entire game in every match up. Yes, players have tried experimenting with Ravens in late game, but as seeker missile is absolutely awful it doesn't work. Once again, I didn't say ghosts weren't viable. I said they were only viable in TvP, and were overnerfed. Your arguments in this thread are showing a continuing lack of basic game knowledge. | ||
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MilesTeg
France1271 Posts
For quite some time after StarCraft II was released, especially at the highest levels of professional play, protoss players were primarily only focusing on 1 base or 2 base warp gate all-ins. It was only after we toned down these builds that protoss players really started exploring their various tech options in the same way that the other two races have been doing for a long time. which has always been my feeling too. Hopefully they come up with something different for Protoss in HotS because even if it is balanced the race has deeper problems (boring, strong in cheese and all-ins but weak in safe play). Adding cute spell casters and capital ships isn't going to cut it, I feel they need to make bigger changes to the race. As a Zerg I don't think we need better scouting options. We've become much better at having safe builds that involve pokes and aggression, so scouting isn't the issue now. If there is a problem with Zerg it is with late game options, because Broodlords are getting figured out and Ultras can be very weak. But overall I think Zerg is strong. | ||
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