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On April 27 2012 17:25 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote:On April 27 2012 17:12 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote:
there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting. Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not. um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest. which part of the OP didn't you understand? so what, it's 56% in Europe right now, everything else is in the 55%-balanced zone. And I'm having fun with GSL PvP, it's a very nice matchup when played by two good people (=GSL level). Not to mention that there are more Terrans in the GSL, so if you want to complain about a matchup being played to much, it's TvT.
But TvT is fun and dynamic to watch. It's not a rare sight to see a game end at 5 bases with all out pressure all game, and then see a fast 2 base gg the next game.
PVP is more like "which 1 base strat is BEST for this map?" Then they duke it out mirror style or one gets rolled for picking the wrong strat for the map.
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On April 27 2012 17:33 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:30 Chaggi wrote:On April 27 2012 17:24 Tommylew wrote:On April 27 2012 16:45 HolyArrow wrote:
People are still whining about how long it took for MVP to kill HerO on Antiga? Do these people not realize that MVP suddenly decided that he didn't want to use Ghosts anymore? A few good EMPs/Snipes and the game would have been over far sooner. its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units.. Not actually seeing the replay, your advice is pretty stupid. Terrans can't just attack into a Protoss once you have one of your tier 3 AoE units out, we need to have the counter. So you tech to Collossi, we need to start making vikings or else we'll die. It's not as easy to pressure a well prepared Protoss that has stalkers/cannons around his base. You get the 3rd and Templars start coming in. And this is while the Terran is still trying to guess is he still making Collossi or is he gonna switch to Templars. If he makes 2 Templars and uses the rest on Collossi, I just lose if I overmake ghosts. And same if I overmake vikings. And the worst part is, even if I win a fight, I can't push into your base. You can literally have guys waiting for me without any rally time. And tanks? lol ok, tanks vs upgraded zealots that don't die, splash onto already weak bio ball wow.... its called a scan. You scan the ramp or main of Protoss and 9/10 you will see what path they are going and what units they have. I don't see how people can be so blind...
okay, you get your money scan, don't get the army? scan again? keep scanning till you find it? oops now I'm down 800 minerals and you're coming at me cause I can't remake everything instantly. Late game, Protoss can literally switch tech at a whim and if a Terran dont' have all their bases covered, Terrans will lose.
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wow.... its called a scan. You scan the ramp or main of Protoss and 9/10 you will see what path they are going and what units they have. I don't see how people can be so blind...[/QUOTE]
Yeah because a scan see's very building in the protoss base...........
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On April 27 2012 17:32 Snowbear wrote:
TvZ: 50%; 50%; 52%
--> give zerg better scouting
TvZ: lategame broodlord infestor not possible to beat if you are not in an advantage
--> help zerg to get an even bigger advantage (scouting) early game
PvT 56% in Europe
--> the terran race is fine!
He didn't use the statistical data to back up the better scouting for Zerg against Terran. He used tournament data. You simply strawman DK by putting it like this.
Also he never mentioned BL/Inf/Cor and it's only your personal opinion there. Again nothing that has anything to do with what DK said.
Last one, yeah, 56% in Europe, which means it's 1% away from what they consider balanced. It's a momentarily picture, and as he said it might be 56% for Terran on a different day. Probably a small issue, but seeing how this is only one day and one server, it's likely to be a fluke.
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Slight map imbalances makes the game more interesting? What?? My brain hurts after reading this. Shouldn't there be no imbalance whatsoever? Of course that isn't truly possible but I'll at least want to see them try as hard as they can...
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On April 27 2012 17:34 Scila wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:29 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 17:21 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 17:00 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:56 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:53 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:46 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:
[quote]
Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro. This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not. Really? Ghosts, Vikings, Ravens seem pretty viable to me, just to mention some. Raven is underrated in my opinion. Ravens are not viable because SM is horrible. Battlecruisers are not viable. Thors are not viable versus Protoss, and somewhat viable against zerg. Ghosts have been nerfed into oblivion, and are only viable against Protoss. :/ seems like you just don't want to try new things. The seeker missile is really powerful when it lands, and the raven has other abilities too. You can make a wall with turrets to funnel zealots and the point defense drone is really good especially early game. Ghosts are really good TvP, don't see why people keep saying otherwise. They outrange templar with snipe and EMP is really effective. Seeker Missile is NEVER seen in proplay because it is a really bad ability. "Wall of turrets" you're just grasping at straws now. I didn't say ghosts were bad in TvP. I said they were bad TvZ, and were overall nerfed too hard. You really have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly don't want enough streams if you haven't seen Terrans using seeker missile. And your argument that because it isn't used means its not viable is what is grasping at straws. I remember beta when Terran only went blind viking and marine/marauder and didn't use ghost. If everyone thought like you Terrans would have never started using the ghost. I agree snipe was nerfed too hard but the ghost is still very much viable. Just because some players may have tried using it doesn't mean its viable durrr. Viable: able to be used effectively for the length of the entire game in every match up. Yes, players have tried experimenting with Ravens in late game, but as seeker missile is absolutely awful it doesn't work. Once again, I didn't say ghosts weren't viable. I said they were only viable in TvP, and were overnerfed. Your arguments in this thread are showing a continuing lack of basic game knowledge.
Done arguing with you, you are closed minded. If you really think its that hopeless switch races and stop wasting our time. Let the pros come up with the ideas while you stay there in the corner complaining, very helpful.
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On April 27 2012 17:38 elwoodng wrote:
Slight map imbalances makes the game more interesting? What?? My brain hurts after reading this. Shouldn't there be no imbalance whatsoever? Of course that isn't truly possible but I'll at least want to see them try as hard as they can...
some the best matches in the history of chess are with an under dog winning playing black.
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On April 27 2012 17:41 JimmyJRaynor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:38 elwoodng wrote:
Slight map imbalances makes the game more interesting? What?? My brain hurts after reading this. Shouldn't there be no imbalance whatsoever? Of course that isn't truly possible but I'll at least want to see them try as hard as they can... some the best matches in the history of chess are with an under dog winning playing black.
Just because it's interesting doesn't mean it's the way to go. It's like forcing football matches to be played uphill/downhill every 5th game because it makes for interesting matches if the team playing uphill wins.
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On April 27 2012 17:37 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:33 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 17:30 Chaggi wrote:On April 27 2012 17:24 Tommylew wrote:On April 27 2012 16:45 HolyArrow wrote:
People are still whining about how long it took for MVP to kill HerO on Antiga? Do these people not realize that MVP suddenly decided that he didn't want to use Ghosts anymore? A few good EMPs/Snipes and the game would have been over far sooner. its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units.. Not actually seeing the replay, your advice is pretty stupid. Terrans can't just attack into a Protoss once you have one of your tier 3 AoE units out, we need to have the counter. So you tech to Collossi, we need to start making vikings or else we'll die. It's not as easy to pressure a well prepared Protoss that has stalkers/cannons around his base. You get the 3rd and Templars start coming in. And this is while the Terran is still trying to guess is he still making Collossi or is he gonna switch to Templars. If he makes 2 Templars and uses the rest on Collossi, I just lose if I overmake ghosts. And same if I overmake vikings. And the worst part is, even if I win a fight, I can't push into your base. You can literally have guys waiting for me without any rally time. And tanks? lol ok, tanks vs upgraded zealots that don't die, splash onto already weak bio ball wow.... its called a scan. You scan the ramp or main of Protoss and 9/10 you will see what path they are going and what units they have. I don't see how people can be so blind... okay, you get your money scan, don't get the army? scan again? keep scanning till you find it? oops now I'm down 800 minerals and you're coming at me cause I can't remake everything instantly. Late game, Protoss can literally switch tech at a whim and if a Terran dont' have all their bases covered, Terrans will lose.
If you don't have an idea of where the army is at all and have 0 vision than you deserve to lose. Like I said before PF walls are very effective at buying time and getting favorable engagements.
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On April 27 2012 17:36 aksfjh wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:25 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote:On April 27 2012 17:12 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote:
there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting. Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not. um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest. which part of the OP didn't you understand? so what, it's 56% in Europe right now, everything else is in the 55%-balanced zone. And I'm having fun with GSL PvP, it's a very nice matchup when played by two good people (=GSL level). Not to mention that there are more Terrans in the GSL, so if you want to complain about a matchup being played to much, it's TvT. But TvT is fun and dynamic to watch. It's not a rare sight to see a game end at 5 bases with all out pressure all game, and then see a fast 2 base gg the next game. PVP is more like "which 1 base strat is BEST for this map?" Then they duke it out mirror style or one gets rolled for picking the wrong strat for the map.
TvT was fun and dynamic when people explored Mech. Right now most games start with Marine spamming, proceed with Marine spamming and end with Marine spamming. You might say "Tanks are important". Yeah they are, but we see 10rax and 1-2 factories because you need sooo many marines to buffer against enemy marines.
Also TvT is not really a lot more dynamic then PvP. Most games are decided very early, but siege tanks make it impossible to end the game and therefore it gets dragged out for another 10min, but the player behind doesn't have a lot of comback potential.
I don't want to say TvT is bad (Mech vs bio is awesome!), and like every SC2 matchup I like it, but it has seen better times and it is still not half as exciting as a good nonmirror matchup, which offer way more comback potential, due to combats not being decided by numbers of the same units.
And though some people dislike PvP, I think it's refreshing to have a matchup in which every unit counts from the start, in which you can just outsmart your opponent with tech (people call it coinflipping, but on high level it is about counting gas) and in which it is not about "securing 3bases before your move out".
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I read all these comments. If anyone happens to read my comment. Please do not read all the comments. People really are this dumb. So much crying and immaturity.
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TvP is broken as hell in both race's favor from early to late game respectively. Terran infantry is too strong early game against gateway units, and Terran has few options to deal with Protoss' late game splash damage. In both cases the player has to over-compensate with far greater micro and/or numbers than their opponent just to come out even, regardless of strategy. What has this resulted in? Players playing in constant fear of their opponent using abusive strategies. That's the opposite of fun, and the main reason I quit playing 1s in favor of team games.
Hopefully they nerf marine and marauders in HOTS in exchange for a versatile factory unit that doesn't die to immortals or suffer from severe immobility, and all should be well. That would be my solution, at least.
P.S. It'd be nice if Zerg could had better scouting options considering.
P.S.S. I play Protoss.
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On April 27 2012 17:29 KiLLJoy216 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:21 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 17:00 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:56 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:53 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:46 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:On April 27 2012 15:27 acrimoneyius wrote:
Lower damage of storm, keep the radius. Absolutely ridiculous that ONE STORM can kill an entire pack of marines by itself. Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro. This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not. Really? Ghosts, Vikings, Ravens seem pretty viable to me, just to mention some. Raven is underrated in my opinion. Ravens are not viable because SM is horrible. Battlecruisers are not viable. Thors are not viable versus Protoss, and somewhat viable against zerg. Ghosts have been nerfed into oblivion, and are only viable against Protoss. :/ seems like you just don't want to try new things. The seeker missile is really powerful when it lands, and the raven has other abilities too. You can make a wall with turrets to funnel zealots and the point defense drone is really good especially early game. Ghosts are really good TvP, don't see why people keep saying otherwise. They outrange templar with snipe and EMP is really effective. Seeker Missile is NEVER seen in proplay because it is a really bad ability. "Wall of turrets" you're just grasping at straws now. I didn't say ghosts were bad in TvP. I said they were bad TvZ, and were overall nerfed too hard. You really have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly don't want enough streams if you haven't seen Terrans using seeker missile. And your argument that because it isn't used means its not viable is what is grasping at straws. I remember beta when Terran only went blind viking and marine/marauder and didn't use ghost. If everyone thought like you Terrans would have never started using the ghost. I agree snipe was nerfed too hard but the ghost is still very much viable.
you argue Ghosts win over HTs because of 1 range difference...
then you proceed to say terran should make ravens, where HTs have 3 more range on feedback than seekermissile, while seekermissile can be dodged, a raven only has 1 shot (compared to 4 feedbacks or 2 storms for a maxed HT), the SM damage decreases a lot with distance of the impact, so if you hit, you hit mostly shields, EMP is superior in every way imaginable.
you know, maybe just act according to your signature...
i mean firstly you have not followed any prior balance discussion indicated how you are oblivious to the fact that several progamer stated their issues with this matchup on this very website, secondly please do not suggest halfassed ideas you just came up with, terran has been by far the most explored race, especially compared to protoss (even david kim says so in this blogpost xD)
i do not know what has awoken you from your slumber (sudden surge of posts after long silence) but i guess you have not slept well.
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How 37 % winrate on metalopolis is "fine" is way way way way way way way way beyond me. How 70 % winrate on cloud kingdom is "fine" is further beyond me. I guess they don't want to touch the "terran is playing against the clock" until heart of the swarm.
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On April 27 2012 17:24 Tommylew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 16:45 HolyArrow wrote:
People are still whining about how long it took for MVP to kill HerO on Antiga? Do these people not realize that MVP suddenly decided that he didn't want to use Ghosts anymore? A few good EMPs/Snipes and the game would have been over far sooner. its like the Terrans on ladder who whine balance.... but NONE get ghosts, I beat a terran in a cup just other day who whined balance, but he only went mmm all game and then calls imbalance when he lets me tech to both storms and collusus on 3 base and he doesnt get any ghosts doesnt try any drop play.... How about Tanks and some type of mid game push before the protoss is allowed 3 base and to tech to two different level 3 AOE units..
how do you drop against 3 base? these days the bases are so close together, and at any rate you can just put stalkers there and you'll clear any drops
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United Kingdom38202 Posts
Feeling justified for thinking that cloud kingdom is goddamn horrible =)
The map is an interesting case study though, I think it's one of the best examples of the disconnects between Terrans at different levels.
In Korea they're all pretty godly and are able to make it to around a 47% win rate in TvP despite the handicaps the map throws at them. Meanwhile international pros who lack some of the refinement of the Korean Terrans are humming along a bit lower at about 43%. Then the rest of us mere mortals are getting slaughtered with a spectacularly bad 30% win rate.
This is the crux of why there's a lot of disgruntled Terrans kicking around lately (at least within the match up), little jimmy ladder hero just isn't able to replicate the godly control and awareness of a top korean Terran, and while that's to be expected, the fall off in this particular match up is much bigger (certainly on big maps) than it is in others.
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On April 27 2012 17:19 Surgical_Strike wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:12 Big J wrote:On April 27 2012 17:07 Surgical_Strike wrote:
there is an obvious problem with TvP matchup. It is even until storm charglots are out..and then it gets ugly... anyone denying this is either a biased protoss player or does not watch enough SC2. Id say that most likely storm needs to be nerfed... an idea i was thinking about is possibly giving ghosts stim so they could deal with chargelots a little better and not die because they are so slow during kiting... thus they could be massed easier and giving better opportunities to deny at least a few more storms. I have no idea if that would work but it would be interesting. Yeah, there is an obvious problem with TvP, and it's that Terrans try to make it look Protossfavored, when it is obviously=statistics not. um actually statistics say it is protoss favored and so do the highest level games. have fun with gsl pvp fest.
No they don't. It's actually Terran > protoss both in Korea and internationally at tournament level and also in this season's GSL. Why not try actually looking at statistics rather than just making stuff up?
http://imgur.com/a/XmBDV
and
http://www.gomtv.net/records/index.gom?page=1&searchType=3&race=T&vsrace=P&season=2012&leaguetype=20&leagueid=27062&gamever=0&mapid=0&Go=30
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On April 27 2012 17:49 Naphal wrote:Show nested quote +On April 27 2012 17:29 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 17:21 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 17:00 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:56 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:53 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 16:46 Scila wrote:On April 27 2012 16:36 KiLLJoy216 wrote:On April 27 2012 15:47 acrimoneyius wrote:On April 27 2012 15:29 darkness wrote:
[quote]
Learn to use EMP and ghosts. I know how to use them. If one storm lands successfully the battle is basically lost. How is that fair? You are completely correct. I mean how unfair is it that a tier 3 unit can kill a tier 1 unit so easily, something must be wrong. Tired of these bronze league players' opinions. You SHOULD be punished for only going marines when its 20 minutes into the game, and 1 storm won't kill an entire pack of marines if you know how to micro. This old argument would make sense if Terran's higher tier units were viable. Currently, they are not. Really? Ghosts, Vikings, Ravens seem pretty viable to me, just to mention some. Raven is underrated in my opinion. Ravens are not viable because SM is horrible. Battlecruisers are not viable. Thors are not viable versus Protoss, and somewhat viable against zerg. Ghosts have been nerfed into oblivion, and are only viable against Protoss. :/ seems like you just don't want to try new things. The seeker missile is really powerful when it lands, and the raven has other abilities too. You can make a wall with turrets to funnel zealots and the point defense drone is really good especially early game. Ghosts are really good TvP, don't see why people keep saying otherwise. They outrange templar with snipe and EMP is really effective. Seeker Missile is NEVER seen in proplay because it is a really bad ability. "Wall of turrets" you're just grasping at straws now. I didn't say ghosts were bad in TvP. I said they were bad TvZ, and were overall nerfed too hard. You really have no idea what you're talking about. You clearly don't want enough streams if you haven't seen Terrans using seeker missile. And your argument that because it isn't used means its not viable is what is grasping at straws. I remember beta when Terran only went blind viking and marine/marauder and didn't use ghost. If everyone thought like you Terrans would have never started using the ghost. I agree snipe was nerfed too hard but the ghost is still very much viable. you argue Ghosts win over HTs because of 1 range difference... then you proceed to say terran should make ravens, where HTs have 3 more range on feedback than seekermissile, while seekermissile can be dodged, a raven only has 1 shot (compared to 4 feedbacks or 2 storms for a maxed HT), the SM damage decreases a lot with distance of the impact, so if you hit, you hit mostly shields, EMP is superior in every way imaginable. you know, maybe just act according to your signature... i mean firstly you have not followed any prior balance discussion indicated how you are oblivious to the fact that several progamer stated their issues with this matchup on this very website, secondly please do not suggest halfassed ideas you just came up with, terran has been by far the most explored race, especially compared to protoss (even david kim says so in this blogpost xD) i do not know what has awoken you from your slumber (sudden surge of posts after long silence) but i guess you have not slept well.
LOL. I never said to use the Ravens solely for seeker missile so stop assuming. And I've been watching many Protoss streams and templar always gets sniped before getting storm or feedback off. Oh and newsflash... Programmers don't have all the answes. This isn't the first time people have complained about balance. This has happened before and people find new strategies to deal with it. Thanks for the laugh.
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Look like we got the big theorycraft guy who "watching stream" and not playing himself .
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On April 27 2012 17:59 nOondn wrote:
Look like we got the big theorycraft guy who "watching stream" and not playing himself .
Sorry to burst your bubble, I am in Masters. 
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EPT
