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Knock off the SC2 vs BW vs LoL vs whatever crap please. |
On March 25 2012 09:15 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:10 TehTemplar wrote:Hmm, I don't see the point of getting rid of such a beloved game as BW unless it's being shown to be detrimental to eSports... and I'm pretty sure it's not. EDIT: Lol why the fuck was he warned for this?!?! Seems like a good opinion imo.
He was probably warned because either: 1. It was a one line post that didn't add anything to the discussion. 2. It was a one line post in a long history of one line posts. 3. It was a one line post that mods felt would derail the thread or lead to excess flaming. Its probably just down to money. BW doesn't pull the same sponsorship dollars it used to so KeSPA has to diversify. I suspect they may not have to kill off BW though if SC2 joins Proleague. As odd as this may sound to some, having Proleague bring in new SC2 viewers could see a boost in SCBW viewership if hardcore SC2 fans are able to appreciate SCBW level play quicker then an average fresh viewer. This could be a good thing for a globalization of BW interest and be kind of a shot in the arm if this is positioned right. The could definitely be cross over, unless KeSPA or the teams do want/have the resources to split up into two games and skill retain the level of skill and quality expected of them.
they rather try to force the "hardcore broodwar" fans to watch sc2 games.
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On March 25 2012 09:24 Marti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:15 Torpedo.Vegas wrote:On March 25 2012 09:10 TehTemplar wrote:Hmm, I don't see the point of getting rid of such a beloved game as BW unless it's being shown to be detrimental to eSports... and I'm pretty sure it's not. EDIT: Lol why the fuck was he warned for this?!?! Seems like a good opinion imo.
He was probably warned because either: 1. It was a one line post that didn't add anything to the discussion. 2. It was a one line post in a long history of one line posts. 3. It was a one line post that mods felt would derail the thread or lead to excess flaming. Its probably just down to money. BW doesn't pull the same sponsorship dollars it used to so KeSPA has to diversify. I suspect they may not have to kill off BW though if SC2 joins Proleague. As odd as this may sound to some, having Proleague bring in new SC2 viewers could see a boost in SCBW viewership if hardcore SC2 fans are able to appreciate SCBW level play quicker then an average fresh viewer. This could be a good thing for a globalization of BW interest and be kind of a shot in the arm if this is positioned right. The could definitely be cross over, unless KeSPA or the teams do want/have the resources to split up into two games and skill retain the level of skill and quality expected of them. Well, if they would just run an SC2 proleague ALONG, it wouldn't really hurt anybody and we might actually benefit from it. But the thing is BW mostly appeals to koreans. SC2 mostly appeals to foreigners. I don't think OGN has any english casters. So how is it gonna be ? Is OGN just going to try and get koreans into sc2 ?? Or will they try something like GOMTV with a web TV and english casters ? Because most of the viewers of proleague and osl are koreans and some chinese, so if they actually bothered getting english casters for bw it would be kind of a waste of money given how small the foreign bw fanbase is. But sc2 doesn't really appeal to koreans that much. That's why i fear they might just try to force sc2 down the throat of everyone. This just might hurt both scenes nstead of allowing them to grow a bit. I also think league of legends right now might be the most interesting game for OGN.
I dont think true competitive BW has had much of a chance in the foreign scene because of how hight the skill curve is. SC2 eased a lot of people in, so it is possible they could appreciate BW a bit better then giving BW a chance fresh. Also, I don't know how SC2 is currently doing overall in Korea, but I suspect as the game develops, it could possibly pull old BW fans in (especially if BW teams go hardcore into breaking it apart). I just would like to see SC continue on overall TBH in some form.
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On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche.
I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game.
Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways.
The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts.
More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove.
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On March 25 2012 09:18 Zato-1 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 07:57 StarStruck wrote:On March 25 2012 07:55 Zato-1 wrote:
If their handling of the BW scene is any indication, I'm not sure KeSPA getting involved in SC2 is a good thing for SC2. That could happen to any title man. Doesn't matter. If they're having a hard time finding new sponsors then there's really nothing else they can do about it. If a game gets really big, they cannot ignore it either. That's not what I meant. What I did mean is, I'm not a fan of all the KeSPA BW shenanigans- disqualifying players for not typing the proper request for a pause, boycotting the GomTV Intel Classic BW tournaments, creating a huge legal drama with Blizzard over Starcraft broadcasting rights, that kind of thing. Just like how you can like music but not be a fan of the RIAA, I was once a fan of BW but disliked KeSPA; now, I am no longer a fan of BW, but I'm still wary of KeSPA.
Keep in mind that, for all the bad it has done, KeSPA has created a pretty solid system, that lasted over 10 years, and is still going. Sure, it's not really funny to see flash considered looser because of a power outage, sure we don't like seeing players disqualified for "pp" or "a", but they still managed to build something. How often do you hear about a team stealing another team's players ? How often do you come across problems such as the one that happened to orb, with mad redditorz spamming the sponsors of a team to get someone fired ?
Now to be fair, i have to point out that the GOMTV boycott wasn't very nice, but i don't think KeSPA is as bad as people think.
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On March 25 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche. I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game. Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways. The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts. More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove.
If you dont mind my asking, what was the highest rank you ever got on ICCUP?
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On March 25 2012 05:55 setzer wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 05:44 Skullflower wrote:On March 25 2012 02:56 setzer wrote:On March 25 2012 02:53 Tsuki.eu wrote:On March 25 2012 02:49 LoLAdriankat wrote:On March 25 2012 02:48 theBALLS wrote:
BW fanboys will have to admit that as awesome as BW is, its heyday is over. Just look at BW tourney viewership on TL. It's abysmal.
Those are BW tourney restreams. Foreign community doesn't watch BW. Just out of curiosity, how many ppl watch a normal bw stream? not the super duper finals, just a regular game like on GSL or NASL/IPL. I regularly see 1000+ across all retreams for a regular proleague match, which is more than what NASL and IPL sometimes get. That's not even close to accurate in regards to the numbers that IPL and NASL get.. I have regularly seen NASL pull 600-700 viewers, that is NOT bullshit.
You're either talking about the NASTL, or one of those "events" where they try to stream individual matches across a time period of months, something which nobody watches.
Now, when it comes to actual events, like the weekend long LANs, we typically get 10,000 to 20,000 viewers on smaller (relatively speaking, of course) tournaments while the bigger ones reach around 50,000, I believe.
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On March 25 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche. I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game. Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways. The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts. More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove.
It's true that BW is more mechanically demanding ( note that this doesn't mean you can't enjoy a game of BGH or any of the bajillion UMS maps that are really fun to play ), but these things you're talking about ( control groups etc ), you LEARN how to overcome those limitations. That's the very reason why apm is important. These things are not random. You can tell most of the time when watching a game, if a scarab is going to dud or not, you can also, when playing, block the scarab with a siege tank ( done once in this proleague, i think bisu had gone for a proxy robo on maybe electric circuit ? Or chain reaction ?).
I'm not denying that A LOT MORE people play cod and halo than 1.6. That's a fact, more people play those games, but how many of them are into esports ? Most of them are casual gamers playing on console with their friends. This is pure speculation by the way, but i'd like to have an idea on what numbers mlg pulls off from their cod and halo tournaments.
I don't think i can prove you with numbers that BW isn't collapsing due to age. But i do think you should watch supernovamaniac's BW weekly about MBCGAME shutting down. I don't get how LoL's growth proves anything, i mean, it's pretty effing obvious that an easier, more casual game, easy to understand and graphically appealing game will sell better than a difficult one, but that doesn't prove BW will loose more viewers " because it's old ".
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United Kingdom16710 Posts
 Me so sad. While I knew BW was struggling to find sponsors, I didn't know there was enough interest in SC2 in Korea for Kespa to pick it up. Perhaps the season where they play both will be a trial run to see if it can attract new interest from both viewership & in turn sponsors. If it doesn't turn out so well, I could see Kespa drop SC1/2 altogether and focus on other games.
I really hope that SC2 can take over from BW and continue its amazing legacy, but I've seen enough games to know it doesn't quite have the depth or the entertainment value to do so, at least not for very long. Not saying SC2 is a bad game, and I understand BW is very tough one to live up to, but the primary reason it has survived & thrived for so long in the esports scene is because of its brilliance. I guess the hope lies with the expansions (or is LotV only a single player expansion like I've heard a few times?) & the current crop of BW pros taking SC2 further.
And what happens to GOM? Will we have 2 leagues running in parallel? It will certainly be interesting to see how the two leagues interact, especially given their history. GOM will be desperate to have the current BW pros in their league, and Kespa would want to cash in on the viewership GOM has managed to cultivate so far.
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On March 25 2012 09:39 captainshards wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche. I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game. Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways. The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts. More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove. If you dont mind my asking, what was the highest rank you ever got on ICCUP?
I don't believe that is relevant, as I can watch games and look at pictures to determine the graphics and sound quality, as well as research the technical limitations like the aforementioned AI (dragoons appear to be a particularly popular example, as well as those hilarious stupid scarabs), but if it's just out of idle curiosity, then I didn't play BW.
I considered it, for sure, but ultimately I didn't consider the weeks or even months of effort to acheive mere competency in the game worth my time. I have a lot of other things I enjoy doing, and taking months of effort to have a chance to enjoy something is not something I am interested in, especially considering my current belief that BW is having issues staying afloat and the fact that you depend on servers to play, which could have their plugs pulled someday.
(my god, sometimes I overuse run-on sentences)
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On March 25 2012 09:50 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:39 captainshards wrote:On March 25 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche. I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game. Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways. The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts. More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove. If you dont mind my asking, what was the highest rank you ever got on ICCUP? I don't believe that is relevant, as I can watch games and look at pictures to determine the graphics and sound quality, as well as research the technical limitations like the aforementioned AI (dragoons appear to be a particularly popular example, as well as those hilarious stupid scarabs), but if it's just out of idle curiosity, then I didn't play BW. I considered it, for sure, but ultimately I didn't consider the weeks or even months of effort to acheive mere competency in the game worth my time. I have a lot of other things I enjoy doing, and taking months of effort to have a chance to enjoy something is not something I am interested in, especially considering my current belief that BW is having issues staying afloat and the fact that you depend on servers to play, which could have their plugs pulled someday. (my god, sometimes I overuse run-on sentences)
I appreciate you taking the time to answer my question.
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I think this will overall be good, but I hope that Blizz forces KeSPa to open up some and not run their business so much like a sweatshop. If they do, then I think this will be a good thing.
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On March 25 2012 09:44 Marti wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 09:32 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 09:11 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. No, i am being honest, BW does not " look like shit " and compared to sc2's cartoony, WAR3-ish grahpics, it's still pretty decent. And the fact that there are good players is a pro, not a con. THE GRAPHICS BECOME OBSOLETE THE GAMEPLAY DOES NOT. That's like saying mozart sucks because now we have technology and dubstep. Did you know that, even today, you have amateur houses where people pay to live and be trained by coaches so they can become progamers ? CS 1.6 does not look dead to me, source has never beat 1.6 in any aspect. So i don't really see this "death of many eSPORTS" and "electronic sports being constantly recycled". We might still be playing 1.5 if they hadn't shut down the WON system. The reason why mbcgame was shut down, and the viewers have dropped, is mostly the match fixing scandal. So no, there is no reason to " recycle " games like that, all you really need is a way to get the newer generation to play it, and guess what, having brood war on a freaking TV channel just might be the best way to do that. The problem, the real reason why people don't play so called esports games, is because most people don't know about them. How does the average teenager hears of quakelive, cs 1.6 or brood war ???? He sure as hell will know when the latest call of duty is released, but esports is mostly a niche. I'm not sure where I said good players were bad for the game. Turn up SC2 to the max settings and admire the details on things like the flames coming from the medivac's engines or the entire freaking protoss race (fucking gorgeous, those guys). The difference between SC2 and BW is astounding in that area. I was using graphics as an example of a deterrent for new players, anyways. The gameplay, well... I guess if you consider the "feel" of the game as gameplay, then I guess you could say it doesn't change over time. But I'm talking about things like the AI and control group limitations, things which are less advanced then their modern counterparts. More people play CoD and Halo than CS 1.6 these days, I think. By and large, people watch the games they play, and more people play the more modern games. If you could provide something that would make me believe that BW isn't collapsing due to age, which this thread and the BW fanboys' posts are not doing, I will gladly revoke my points and probably even edit all my posts related to what I said here to say "nvm, I'm stupid". Until then, though, I stand by the numbers and reasoning which things like LoL's rampant growth and massive numbers only seem to prove. It's true that BW is more mechanically demanding ( note that this doesn't mean you can't enjoy a game of BGH or any of the bajillion UMS maps that are really fun to play ), but these things you're talking about ( control groups etc ), you LEARN how to overcome those limitations. That's the very reason why apm is important. These things are not random. You can tell most of the time when watching a game, if a scarab is going to dud or not, you can also, when playing, block the scarab with a siege tank ( done once in this proleague, i think bisu had gone for a proxy robo on maybe electric circuit ? Or chain reaction ?). I'm not denying that A LOT MORE people play cod and halo than 1.6. That's a fact, more people play those games, but how many of them are into esports ? Most of them are casual gamers playing on console with their friends. This is pure speculation by the way, but i'd like to have an idea on what numbers mlg pulls off from their cod and halo tournaments. I don't think i can prove you with numbers that BW isn't collapsing due to age. But i do think you should watch supernovamaniac's BW weekly about MBCGAME shutting down. I don't get how LoL's growth proves anything, i mean, it's pretty effing obvious that an easier, more casual game, easy to understand and graphically appealing game will sell better than a difficult one, but that doesn't prove BW will loose more viewers " because it's old ".
I think you are having trouble interpreting my point. All the things I am saying, I am not saying them to point out that they are bad. I am pointing out the things that deter new players, which are the life and blood of any game. Like I said in a response to another, more offended, poster, things like the technical limitations in BW are a huge part of what BW is, and perhaps are the largest part that turned it into the gorgeously difficult and complex game it is today.
These technical limitations also deter new players. They make the game harder, they give a higher skill gap that needs to be bridged before you can enjoy the game (I refuse to believe the majority of people find getting gimped entertaining) and they make the game "look" bad.
I'm also not suggesting that the oldness makes people leave. Attrition makes people leave. Over time, people lose passion. Every proleague, a few more people didn't turn in because they lost their passion. Over ten years, this adds up. For a lot of games, this can be offset by newer players entering the scene and staying. Not so with older games, especially if they are hard, competitive, technically limited, graphically outdated and have their playerbase consolidated into hardcore, incredibly skilled players that have typically been there for years.
Pertaining to the effects of things like LoL on BW, they provide competitiveness in a more popular form. If you go competitive (as in the game type, not going pro), you will be more likely to go competitive in LoL than in BW. They consume the potential playerbase.
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It's just great for the progression of SC2 in general to have the BW guys play it and regularly practice it so much like they are already doing for BW, having them optimize strategies, unit movements, positioning, decision making and mechanics will just improve the spectator aspect of the game for me. I don't really care who cannot keep up once they make the switch, if you can't keep up as a competitor your career will be threatened, and everyone will have to practice really hard to compete with the best if they want to continue as progamers. I can't wait to watch Proleague SC2 with Korean casters every week, just like they have for BW, with big name sponsers and huge contracts for SC2 players, it's just such a shame that Brood War as a game is under threat because of this.
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On March 25 2012 02:11 nokz88 wrote:TIG sourceAn unnamed Korean industry insider said "There is a strong possibility that the next season of Proleague will have both SCBW and SC2, and the next one after that will have only SC2".
So good.
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On March 25 2012 02:18 lottopk wrote:
Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post
Are you kidding me, warned for this? I mean, it's not like BW is a young game. It's epicly good, yes, but technically old.
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On March 25 2012 08:54 ImbaTosS wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 08:51 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 08:41 ImbaTosS wrote:On March 25 2012 08:12 AnachronisticAnarchy wrote:On March 25 2012 03:21 Marti wrote:On March 25 2012 02:36 avilo wrote:
One side of me is saying, "good, people need to move on from brood war it's an old game. Baseball is over 100 years old, is one side of you saying " people need to move on from baseball it's an old game" ? So what's your point ? Comparing physical sports and the effects of aging to electronic sports and the effects of aging on them is, well, ineffective. In physical sports, they only get better with age due to things like enhanced gear and viewing equipment due to technological advancements; however, electronic sports are constantly recycled because that very technological advancement means that games become obsolete. Let's be honest here: BW looks like shit and has horrible, horrible AI and poor methods of controlling your units compared to modern standards. Furthermore, the playerbase has been steadily consolidated to the truly good players, meaning that anyone who does happen to see a shitty looking game and still wants to play it will soon be deterred from playing anyways due to being endlessly slaughtered. That means that the playerbase and fanbase will steadily atrophy away, causing a slow death for the video game. These factors have been the cause of death for many eSPORTS. There is no reason to believe the cycle will stop just because BW has an incredibly hardcore fanbase. You aren't the first, and you won't be the last. What the fuck do you mean "let's be honest here", as if we're all thinking it and know it, and you're this omniscient wise oracle, sent from the future to guide us stone-age beings into your enlightened sphere. Guess what? Your opinion, your attitude, your opinions and your absolutely horrible, condescending and self-satisfied tone, not to mention your total failure to grasp WHY we love the game and its scene- all these things, mean precisely fuck all. Nobody wants to know what you think, or why you think it. You're wrong about us, and how dare you turn up, and start telling us that we're wrong for our opinions, and our fundamental ways of viewing something. You egotistical, self-satisfied, brain washed, short-sighted individual. You know us and our way of thinking better than we do, do you??? Stick it. You seem to think I am bashing BW. I am not bashing BW. In fact, the difficulty of the things like AI and control group limits have lead to things like the micro intensive battles that have made BW popular. One would argue that those things are perhaps the biggest factor that separates BW from SC2 and makes SC2 a fundamentally different and undeniably easier game. I am not bashing BW. I am saying that BW is a noob-unfriendly game, the same as nearly every prequel compared to nearly every sequel. I suppose that saying BW is a noob-unfriendly game would have been an adequate TLDR to my post, as the innate tendency for video games to become noob-unfriendly is what I was using as my reason to denounce the effectiveness of the analogy used by the poster that I was responding to. Physical sports stay largely the same, barring things like new equipment, and become arguably better because of the advances in technology, while video games become noob-unfriendly and and thus lose their fanbases over time due to the same advances in technology. That was my point. I apologise if I misunderstood. Crucially though, not if I didn't. Having said that, I'm tired and very, very upset that we might be about to lose something which, for many, can never be replaced and will be lost forever. Not in the most stable of moods. I'll go to bed.
Yeah. Sucks losing something you loved for years. We sorta have the same thing going with SC2 and LoL, but we aren't getting slapped in the face with its popularity on the front page of TL every time we visit. I sincerely hope you at least find some way to keep BW alive, in some form.
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I'm just getting into BW, don't kill it !!
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On March 25 2012 10:06 ZenithM wrote:Show nested quote +On March 25 2012 02:18 lottopk wrote:
Its inevitable. Everything must progress and bw is getting old.
User was warned for this post Are you kidding me, warned for this? I mean, it's not like BW is a young game. It's epicly good, yes, but technically old.
Haha, mods are hardcore BW fans. People aren't allowed to say facts like "BW is old" or opinions regarding "inevitability" because it makes them sad =(
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I do always find it amazing how people are for "the growth of esports", well, until League of Legends is mentioned...
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On March 25 2012 02:48 theBALLS wrote:
BW fanboys will have to admit that as awesome as BW is, its heyday is over. Just look at BW tourney viewership on TL. It's abysmal.
You clearly have no idea what you're talking about.
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EPT
