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Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 23

Forum Index > SC2 General
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NEW IN-GAME CHANNEL: FRB
firehand101
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Australia3152 Posts
March 17 2012 06:00 GMT
#441
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 17 2012 02:48 Barrin wrote:
Actually it's a direct result of this:

[image loading]

But yes, golds only make it worse.


so if you were protoss in BW you got more cash?
The opinions expressed by our users do not reflect the official position of TeamLiquid.net or its staff.
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
March 17 2012 06:01 GMT
#442
This is brilliant. Have you considered 1 gas nats to even out the the high gas quantities in 6 or 7m 2g bases?
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
Clazziquai10
Profile Blog Joined August 2011
Singapore1949 Posts
March 17 2012 06:03 GMT
#443
Maybe its just me but I think 6m2g is better than 6m1hyg because of gas stealing.

But either way, great idea and write-up. I would love to see something like that in the future
SgtCoDFish
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
United Kingdom1520 Posts
March 17 2012 06:04 GMT
#444
On March 17 2012 15:00 firehand101 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 17 2012 02:48 Barrin wrote:
Actually it's a direct result of this:

[image loading]

But yes, golds only make it worse.


so if you were protoss in BW you got more cash?


Yeah, that's correct. Probes>Drones>SCVs in terms of mineral harvesting
Resistentialism
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada688 Posts
March 17 2012 06:05 GMT
#445
On March 17 2012 15:00 firehand101 wrote:
+ Show Spoiler +
On March 17 2012 02:48 Barrin wrote:
Actually it's a direct result of this:

[image loading]

But yes, golds only make it worse.


so if you were protoss in BW you got more cash?


BW probes accelerate from stops at little tiny bit faster than the other workers.
Proko
Profile Joined February 2011
United States1022 Posts
March 17 2012 06:09 GMT
#446
The other thing you might discuss is how early game static D will be more powerful/effective under this model since static D gets weaker the larger the army your opponent has.
Caster duos should compliment each others' strengths. "You look very handsome today, Tasteless."
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 17 2012 06:12 GMT
#447
On March 17 2012 15:00 Yosho wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:45 Plexa wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:36 ZeromuS wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:15 Plexa wrote:
You already know my viewpoint on this barrin, I maintain that this is a unit design problem not a problem with minerals.


Doesnt hurt to mess about with things as much as the community can though. I don't think you can argue with that in particular.

Sure we can mess around all day with mineral numbers, but that isn't going to change how retarded colossus make the protoss matchups for instance.


I don't think you're being very productive to the conversation. I think you're trying to start an unbalance thread when we are trying to find alternatives.

I've played some 6 mins 1 gas maps and noticed a huge difference, it's way fun.

Believe me, me and barin have gone back and forth about this for a long time
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
GPThunder
Profile Joined March 2011
Canada53 Posts
March 17 2012 06:30 GMT
#448
wow, I had soo much fun playing 6m1g. Definitely fighting with more micro, more bases, less production.
AGsc
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada120 Posts
March 17 2012 06:32 GMT
#449
+1 for visibility. Definitely gonna try these out with my practice partners. I had the same thought about the gas, but generally I like the idea of 6m. Tournaments are definitely the way to go with implementation, Blizz isn't so hot on changes they didn't originate.
Back off man, I'm a scientist.
RaiKageRyu
Profile Joined August 2009
Canada4773 Posts
March 17 2012 06:35 GMT
#450
Amazing thought went into this. This might be one of the factors... but I am a bit skeptical on it and still believe fundamental designs with regards to some units and mechanics like warpgates influence more on the deathball effect.
Someone call down the Thunder?
sluggaslamoo
Profile Blog Joined November 2009
Australia4494 Posts
March 17 2012 06:40 GMT
#451
Really nice OP

I just hope Blizzard doesn't interpret this as 8 patches per base with 500 minerals each.
Come play Android Netrunner - http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=409008
Nerski
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
United States1095 Posts
March 17 2012 06:58 GMT
#452
Great read!

Blizzard clearly made sc2 with the intent to increase the pace for the less hard core I want it now ADD audience they 'thought' they would be selling the game to. I think the reality is that the rts audience may in fact be far more intelligent then they give credit for.

I for one would much rather see the 6m 1hyg style of base structure implemented. Slowing an sc2 game down that 25% ish wouldn't mean all games are 25% longer even. It just means you have 25% less resources to put into army production per base. IT merely slows the ability for people to gather up a ball of death down which I feel would make games much much more interesting. Putting slightly more value on units through out the game, and putting more emphasis on securing new expansions if you wish to hit that maximum army cap.

As it stands currently any race 'can' max out on only 2 bases. I feel as though this would push it at least to 3 which would seem far more reasonable.
Twitter: @GoForNerski /// Youtube: Youtube.com/nerskisc
MNdakota
Profile Joined March 2012
United States512 Posts
March 17 2012 07:16 GMT
#453
Well, I just played some games and I have to say I'm absolutely impressed. Although it takes sometime getting used to the 6 minerals. I actually had fun! I was on 3 base with around only 45 workers.

I played with Sevii who was Terran and I, myself, as Zerg. We never maxed (200/200) the whole entire game. Was fun, lots of action. You can definitely tell when your economy is going down, since you can't spend most of your larvae (for Zerg).

Great idea, and great thinking. Was fun!
You may have a fresh start any moment you choose, for this thing we call "failure" is not the falling down, but the staying down.
7Sevii
Profile Joined September 2011
United States17 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 07:54:46
March 17 2012 07:49 GMT
#454
I played/observed around 15 games, played mostly tvz
This was all 6min 1hyg

First off it was a lot of fun, the games were long and pretty interesting. This was plat league so I dunno about the implications for pros.
Devolution 6min hyg TvZ comments:
The map is big, it took me several games to realize how big. It is much bigger than shakuras, and there is no convenient choke in the middle.

This map is good for zerg, lots of counter attack paths, and good for mutas
Deathballs are reasonably easy for zerg to manage, the length of the map makes it easy to set up surrounds, and gives lots of time to prepare for a push. I had more success with smaller armies killing expos.
And 8 min muta is really powerful.

There is an issue, where terran will run out of gas on 3-4 bases, on the "safe" 3 bases there are only 2 gas, taking it up to 3 for 4 base. They are rich geysers, but the total amount of gas is low. So if you sit on 4 base too long, you end up with a marine only army.

I really really like the way the 4 "safe" bases are set up. The back door to the mineral only 3rd is awesome, basically zerg has 2 ground routes into the terran's production + muta harass

I don't know if it is the mineral change or mental forcing, but the max supply I hit in these games was 175/200 100-120 was the usual supply throughout most of the games.

LastDance
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
New Zealand510 Posts
March 17 2012 08:02 GMT
#455
wow this is soooo true. never really thought about this but yea, i completely agree. so much map space is not used because there is no need to expand!
Mongolbonjwa
Profile Joined January 2012
Finland376 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 08:06:13
March 17 2012 08:03 GMT
#456
SC2 balance is built around current base structure concept. If income per base is gonna be changed so hugely, then game have to be rebalanced in every way.

And on the other hand, I remember that Browser said somewhere that they wanted the action to happen faster in the game than in broodwar so I think it is never gonna happen what you are proposing.

And about the "deathball", while it might seem that game is "predisposed" for that kind of gameplay, it does not neccesarily mean that. When players get better, they get better and using every opportunity in the course of the game and thus making more likely that we will see more small conflicts around the map. Actually we are seeing this kind of games already.
0neder
Profile Joined July 2009
United States3733 Posts
March 17 2012 08:11 GMT
#457
On March 17 2012 15:35 RaiKageRyu wrote:
Amazing thought went into this. This might be one of the factors... but I am a bit skeptical on it and still believe fundamental designs with regards to some units and mechanics like warpgates influence more on the deathball effect.

I think the number 1 deathball cause is the unit spacing. Units are spaced more tightly than their actual size.
Number 2 would be lack of imba one-shot AoE.
Number 3 would be unlimited selection.
Jehct
Profile Blog Joined July 2010
New Zealand9115 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 08:18:20
March 17 2012 08:15 GMT
#458
On March 17 2012 15:12 Plexa wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 15:00 Yosho wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:45 Plexa wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:36 ZeromuS wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:15 Plexa wrote:
You already know my viewpoint on this barrin, I maintain that this is a unit design problem not a problem with minerals.


Doesnt hurt to mess about with things as much as the community can though. I don't think you can argue with that in particular.

Sure we can mess around all day with mineral numbers, but that isn't going to change how retarded colossus make the protoss matchups for instance.


I don't think you're being very productive to the conversation. I think you're trying to start an unbalance thread when we are trying to find alternatives.

I've played some 6 mins 1 gas maps and noticed a huge difference, it's way fun.

Believe me, me and barin have gone back and forth about this for a long time

Why can't we have both? Seems like there are two fundamental problems; rather than trying to find a bandaid that can cover both, why not implement two actual fixes simultaneously in HoTS (better/different unit design and different income rates)? After all, both aspects changed from BW to SC2.

BTW I think there's no reason this change would make mineral-only bases work in SC2. A mineral-only base fundamentally changes (I'd argue homogenizes) the compositions possible; shit, the idea didn't even work well in BW.
"You seem to think about this game a lot"
Roblin
Profile Joined April 2010
Sweden948 Posts
March 17 2012 08:19 GMT
#459
dear Barrin, please include this link in your OP, it is the EU blizz forums equivalent thread of the NA blizz forums thread you made, this one seem to be pretty deserted though so I would like it very much if as many of the EU players as possible would go here and speak their mind.

http://eu.battle.net/sc2/en/forum/topic/3484281522
I'm better today than I was yesterday!
nEAnS
Profile Joined April 2010
Canada161 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 08:21:32
March 17 2012 08:21 GMT
#460
Great post! I agree with lowering mineral patches to 7 from 8. This would be a great solution that would be easy to implement. It would really change the metagame.

Changing the food cap is something that I can't really see happening. Anything higher means more units, therefore making it harder for less skilled players to control. A lot of changes in the past have affected all levels of play. A change like this would change harm causal players, thus a move Blizzard won't make because we know how Blizzard loves their causal players. It would be interesting to see how raising the food cap affects high level play though.
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