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Breadth of Gameplay in SC2 - Page 21

Forum Index > SC2 General
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NEW IN-GAME CHANNEL: FRB
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 17 2012 04:15 GMT
#401
You already know my viewpoint on this barrin, I maintain that this is a unit design problem not a problem with minerals.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
March 17 2012 04:19 GMT
#402
On March 17 2012 13:14 Wildmoon wrote:
I always feel like both BW and SC2 have its pros and cons. I am all for anything that will make SC2 better.:D


U see, the point is, that for some people, "better" means "more like bw"
Quote? O.o?
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 04:21:02
March 17 2012 04:20 GMT
#403
On March 17 2012 13:19 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:14 Wildmoon wrote:
I always feel like both BW and SC2 have its pros and cons. I am all for anything that will make SC2 better.:D


U see, the point is, that for some people, "better" means "more like bw"


Atleast there's nothing to lose to try this.:D I am excited for the units that will come with HotS too. I believe it will improve SC2.
skorched
Profile Joined October 2010
United States81 Posts
March 17 2012 04:25 GMT
#404
Sc2/bw Apples and oranges. Great thread tho.
I love the sound of Medivacs getting feedbacked.
BluemoonSC
Profile Blog Joined November 2010
SoCal8910 Posts
March 17 2012 04:26 GMT
#405
wow intense analysis. id definitely love to see some proof of concept (in the form of games) to see if this would really help the current situation we find in starcraft 2.
LiquidDota Staff@BluemoonGG_
Phoobie
Profile Joined December 2010
Canada120 Posts
March 17 2012 04:26 GMT
#406
Awsome post and I agree.

tbh I had been thinking for a long while that SC2 was too "fast paced", and I had thought of a solution with a similar idea in mind but approached it a different way.

I ahd posted this on the Bnet forums a while make, if I can unbury it, ah here it is ! Nerf ALL the macro!

in summary;
-What if mules mined 15 to 20 minerals down from 30?
-What if larva inject produced fewer larva or simply made the hatchery produce larva 75% faster?
-What if Chronoboost was at 25-30% down from 50%?

These were all great things added to the game to make the races each feel a little more different and give the player an extra thing to keep track off where macro is considerably easier than in brood war.

but what is we had a combination of the 2 ideas? where Bases have fewer resources and macro mechanics are not as strong?
"Immortal Roach is pretty good against stalkers" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
CoL_DarkstaR
Profile Joined January 2009
Germany649 Posts
March 17 2012 04:26 GMT
#407
i really like this idea for being so radical while still making sense big time.
However, i'm gonna have to give plexa some credit for pointing out the unit design problems.

I think it comes down to both - theres nothing to lose trying to lower some of the mineral patches, as SC2 really feels too fast and too coin-flippy.

The biggest problem to overcome would be the unit clumping and the splash damage as well as the tendency of lategame units to just suck compared to the risk teching to them.


---


But then, even if you're right (which i guess you are to a great extend), how could we possibly force such a change as a community? Blizzard has no need to change the game as it is, because it is still getting the greatest hype they ever had in an e-sport game, even though most of the "professional" community seems worried about the game. Also, reducing minerals would just make the game more professional, and that lowers the amount of interest by casual people imo. The whole SC2 problem makes me pretty sad though. After all the time i really feel like i have enough of sc2. I picked up broodwar again though.
alexanderzero
Profile Joined June 2008
United States659 Posts
March 17 2012 04:29 GMT
#408
But then, even if you're right (which i guess you are to a great extend), how could we possibly force such a change as a community? Blizzard has no need to change the game as it is, because it is still getting the greatest hype they ever had in an e-sport game, even though most of the "professional" community seems worried about the game.


Blizzard has stated that they intend to invest more heavily in Starcraft 2 as an esport than even before, so hopefully they will start making some of these changes.
I am a tournament organizazer.
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
March 17 2012 04:32 GMT
#409
On March 17 2012 13:20 Wildmoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:19 Sapp wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:14 Wildmoon wrote:
I always feel like both BW and SC2 have its pros and cons. I am all for anything that will make SC2 better.:D


U see, the point is, that for some people, "better" means "more like bw"


Atleast there's nothing to lose to try this.:D I am excited for the units that will come with HotS too. I believe it will improve SC2.


I would really like to beliwe that what u say is true. But I have troubles with that. In my opinion, that would fuc**d up everything we (players) used to know & study from beta up to this date. Changeing it with HotS would not be as autor said hitting two things with one stone, but rather hitting two tings with one big like son of a bi**h metheorite.

I'm no IdrA, but i play this enough to know that if someone walked to me & told me that "son, I know U spend on this game 3-5h/day from the start, but we will change everything mkeing new game with symilar units" I would really like to kill that guy.
Quote? O.o?
Wildmoon
Profile Joined December 2011
Thailand4189 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 04:35:07
March 17 2012 04:33 GMT
#410
On March 17 2012 13:32 Sapp wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:20 Wildmoon wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:19 Sapp wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:14 Wildmoon wrote:
I always feel like both BW and SC2 have its pros and cons. I am all for anything that will make SC2 better.:D


U see, the point is, that for some people, "better" means "more like bw"


Atleast there's nothing to lose to try this.:D I am excited for the units that will come with HotS too. I believe it will improve SC2.


I would really like to beliwe that what u say is true. But I have troubles with that. In my opinion, that would fuc**d up everything we (players) used to know & study from beta up to this date. Changeing it with HotS would not be as autor said hitting two things with one stone, but rather hitting two tings with one big like son of a bi**h metheorite.

I'm no IdrA, but i play this enough to know that if someone walked to me & told me that "son, I know U spend on this game 3-5h/day from the start, but we will change everything mkeing new game with symilar units" I would really like to kill that guy.



TFT changed WC3 drastically but it's for better. I won't worry that much about HotS.
ZeromuS
Profile Blog Joined October 2010
Canada13389 Posts
March 17 2012 04:36 GMT
#411
On March 17 2012 13:15 Plexa wrote:
You already know my viewpoint on this barrin, I maintain that this is a unit design problem not a problem with minerals.


Doesnt hurt to mess about with things as much as the community can though. I don't think you can argue with that in particular.
StrategyRTS forever | @ZeromuS_plays | www.twitch.tv/Zeromus_
danson
Profile Joined April 2010
United States689 Posts
March 17 2012 04:37 GMT
#412
why cant we have a map pool with 8m2g, 7m2g, 6m2g, etc.
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
March 17 2012 04:38 GMT
#413
On March 17 2012 13:33 Wildmoon wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:32 Sapp wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:20 Wildmoon wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:19 Sapp wrote:
On March 17 2012 13:14 Wildmoon wrote:
I always feel like both BW and SC2 have its pros and cons. I am all for anything that will make SC2 better.:D


U see, the point is, that for some people, "better" means "more like bw"


Atleast there's nothing to lose to try this.:D I am excited for the units that will come with HotS too. I believe it will improve SC2.


I would really like to beliwe that what u say is true. But I have troubles with that. In my opinion, that would fuc**d up everything we (players) used to know & study from beta up to this date. Changeing it with HotS would not be as autor said hitting two things with one stone, but rather hitting two tings with one big like son of a bi**h metheorite.

I'm no IdrA, but i play this enough to know that if someone walked to me & told me that "son, I know U spend on this game 3-5h/day from the start, but we will change everything mkeing new game with symilar units" I would really like to kill that guy.



TFT changed WC3 drastically but it's for better. I won't worry that much about HotS.


I'm also not worryed about HotS.
In this tread we are discusing (also)(in extension) what would 'subject of this tread' + HotS do to a game. I was talking abou it, like U shuld my friend.. this ain't no HotS tread.
Quote? O.o?
Sapp
Profile Joined March 2011
Poland173 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 04:43:32
March 17 2012 04:41 GMT
#414
On March 17 2012 13:37 danson wrote:
why cant we have a map pool with 8m2g, 7m2g, 6m2g, etc.


because U would have to remember one bilion build orders to every map in every mode of resorces on it. For bronz to diamond wouldn't be that bad, but later it would really hurt man. Think about it.

even one mineral less has huge impact on a pace of the game, it's not just mineing less so i got less stuff
Quote? O.o?
Spaceboy
Profile Joined February 2011
United Kingdom220 Posts
March 17 2012 04:41 GMT
#415
This was a great and interesting post!

I'd be really interested to see what would happen if this was experimented with in depth.. however I fear this is extremely unlikely to ever be implemented to an extent that will actually affect the majority of players. I mean lets face it, though the community could obviously create their own custom 7m and 6m maps, most play takes place on the ladder and getting Blizzard to agree to switch all the maps over to 7m or even 6m bases is all but unthinkable. I say this because I can't really imagine a situation where 8m, 7m and 6m maps all coexist as Blizzard approved game types.. given that they'd all have totally different build orders and timings etc you'd effectively be multiplying the complexity of the game by 3 by doing that alone (approximately anyway, who can truly say how much more or less there'd be to learn on those map types). Not to mention how difficult the game would be to balance around these 3 distinct game types.

As such it would be quite an incredibly bold move for blizzard to make. I imagine this would only be possible with the release of one of the expansions (which would I guess be best for everyone as balance will be kinda reset by the gameplay changes anyway).. and even then for it to actually happen there'd have to be an absolute tsunami of community pressure for the idea to even be considered. Which seems a bit of a long shot..

That said I hope I'm wrong as your arguments are all pretty compelling
I am terrible at this game!
TheAmazombie
Profile Blog Joined September 2010
United States3714 Posts
March 17 2012 04:42 GMT
#416
I am overall sold, but like Plexa, I do not agree that this will fix the issues, nor do I really think there is issues. I completely agree in the less mineral aspect for the ideas of longer and therefore more dynamic gameplay, but I think that the problem with SC2 is more based on players sucking at the game still.
I know I suck, but I watch the tip top matches and still see way more errors than I think that we should see. I think part of this is caused by the fact that the game is still young and another part by the fact that players are playing more tourneys than practicing, at least when compared to BW. This means that mechanics and understanding of the game are less evovled than we want it at.

We went from BW with its level of competition which was second to none skill and understanding-wise, to SC2, which is different, similar in some ways, but even so it takes a lot of time. It took BW so many years before it produced a Flash. Give the game time is what I think.
We think too much and feel too little. More than machinery, we need humanity. More than cleverness, we need kindness and gentleness. Without these qualities, life will be violent and all will be lost. -Charlie Chaplin
Plexa
Profile Blog Joined October 2005
Aotearoa39261 Posts
March 17 2012 04:45 GMT
#417
On March 17 2012 13:36 ZeromuS wrote:
Show nested quote +
On March 17 2012 13:15 Plexa wrote:
You already know my viewpoint on this barrin, I maintain that this is a unit design problem not a problem with minerals.


Doesnt hurt to mess about with things as much as the community can though. I don't think you can argue with that in particular.

Sure we can mess around all day with mineral numbers, but that isn't going to change how retarded colossus make the protoss matchups for instance.
Administrator~ Spirit will set you free ~
ArcSilver
Profile Joined December 2011
Brazil14 Posts
March 17 2012 04:45 GMT
#418
Very nice topic there. I do agree with your opinion. I was thinking too about less workers, like we had back in BW. What impacts this could cause?
You can't take the sky from me.
Amlitzer
Profile Joined August 2010
United States471 Posts
March 17 2012 04:47 GMT
#419
Five star post. However, from a business prospective most of these changes are undesirable for Blizzard. They will make the game harder to play for casual players, and so more of them will quit sc2 in frustration.
"Not even justice, I want to get truth!"
iTzSnypah
Profile Blog Joined February 2011
United States1738 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-03-17 04:52:37
March 17 2012 04:50 GMT
#420
I don't foresee the 6m1hyg being the solution. After watching a few games (I think it was 4) It became abundantly obvious that only needing 15 workers per base instead of 22 (difference of 7) is too large of a gap. A smart player like myself realised that if I cut worker production at optimum while my opponent still makes workers I can have 7 more marines/14 more zerglings/3.5 more zealots for a 2 base timing attack while still having an economy just as prosperous as my opponents. When both players are forced to have relatively small armies while trying to take an early 3rd having 7 more marines is too much of an advantage.
Team Liquid needs more Terrans.
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