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On March 15 2012 16:32 DarkMatterUK wrote:
My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
I play protoss and I'm personally fine with having one rampless map which favors 4-gate in PvP in the map pool. I don't mind a bit of short, intense micro practice once every 20 games or so.
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I took Tal'Darim. I am playing Terran and that map is so hard for me in 2 of the 3 spawning positions against zerg. Though shattered was right behind, so I really don't mind that one going.
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Ohana looks nice.
I can see quick 3 base with wall in at the bottom of the ramp for P/T and spine forest for Z
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On March 15 2012 16:32 DarkMatterUK wrote:
My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
How is early pools in ZvP becoming more effective. I say they're becoming less effective as a zerg. The map is horrible zerg has like no options on it. A risky 3 hatch will mostly die to 6 gate or even a later gateway timing. Going twobase loses to pheonix openings and early pools are reliant on the protoss scouting you last. I want the map removed. It also feels like toss can just expand three bases really quickly, its no ramp but theres a choke atthe third you only really need to hold two positions.
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So, Ohama's going to be super fun against tank/medivac, huh?.
(grey diamonds are where you first seige, blue diamonds are where you seige crawl to, purple squares are where you can spot from with a medivac without being seen).
![[image loading]](http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z450/lkqano/ohama.jpg)
So if you take 4b, it's really far away from everything and tanks can siege up in range of your expo from behind the LOS blockers. The terrain there makes them very hard to dislodge, but if you cede any ground, they move up to claim the *other * LOS blockers, which cuts off your ground army from your expo and lets them threaten that cliff into your main... when you position to defend that they just kill your expo and go home.
However, if you take 4a, not only can tanks can shell your gas from the low ground... they can cover the ramp at the same time, and most of the 200 mile obstacle course in between. As it happens, a narrow lip of the high ground extends out near that spot... which on one hand might allow 2-3 stalkers or hydras at a time to trade shots before the siege line is fully established, but on the other hand ends up so deep within tank range afterwards that there's really nothing you can do to stop him from staging elevators from it. Oh, one other thing... if he gets up there, he can start shelling your workers and main building.
That might sound a bit elaborate, but actually, it's no extra trouble for him... he was going to go through there anyway so he could seige up behind the rocks overlooking your third. This doesn't *quite* put him in range of your gas, but it *does* make it really hard for you to get rid of him when he moves 2-3 tanks down and tucks them into the little nook between the bottom of the rocks and some trees. Once he's in there, he has range to the main building at your expo, full coverage of the path from your natural, very little exposed surface area, and high ground support. He can also spot with medivacs from any of several locations above your elevation.
...but why stop there? After clearing out your third, he gains access to the back cliff at your natural. Where he can (you guessed it) siege up on the opposite side from your ramp and start shelling your gas and mineral line. There's even another awesome spot to squeeze into between some trees and hte bottom of the rocks... the only thing changing is that this time that's the spot you defend your other tanks from as opposed to the other way around.
I actually have to give the author credit here... he's managed turn everything on its head and make the backdoor rocks to your natural something that threatens not to become an additional enterance. The more I look at them the more I think he intended having them still up to be a liability. Look how far around you have to run to get to the bottom side of that cliff otherwise...
One base left. You know the drill. The only thing I'm going to add is that while you can't hide your medivacs on the way into his main, you DO get to hole up behind the minerals for this part. And while there's plenty of room once you're back there, it turns out anything bigger than a marine can only get back there at one of the ends. Either of which you can seal with a single tank. Cute or what?
(disclaimer: bad day, extreme negativity, probably overblowing it)
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Why only one map... would kill to see both Metalopolis and Shattered going
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I think it's time to remove Metalopolis and Temple. I glad that Blizzard changed their mind about the map pool.
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This is so awesome. Even though I wouldn't consider all of the maps perfect this might be the beginning of a new wave of community made maps in the ladder.
Im so happy.
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all the new maps look sick (ohana like a belshir but with better 3rd imo) and love blizz for it, sad ST is gone but it was due time :p would like to see tda/metal gone too but i'll take it man.
however with pvt rates high they won't be doing a good job balancing the game with maps, huh. daybreak and metropolis p favored, aren't they? (just look at the distances, gsl stats back me up on daybreak?) i love the maps though, guess back to random :>
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On March 14 2012 11:56 L3g3nd_ wrote:
voted for TDA out. PvP on it is silly, and PvZ on it is imbalanced. That leaves 1 MU that is playable on it
That leaves 5..
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On March 15 2012 13:25 Cyro wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 12:37 SKTerran.117 wrote:
Shattered isn't even that bad excpet maybe zvp for zerg. No idea why its the top voted. Show nested quote + Race Stats (non-mirrors):
TvZ: 95-40 (70.4%) [ Games ]
ZvP: 59-48 (55.1%) [ Games ]
PvT: 66-75 (46.8%) [ Games ]
Why would you use those stats? Do you find it fun to cherrypick stats to support your case? Why aren't you also using stats from The Shattered Temple 1.1 which has 3084 games played on it?
Using the combined stats of The Shattered Temple and v1.1 we see
TvZ is 540-405 (57.1%)
ZvP is 401-287 (58.3%)
PvT is 367-453 (44.8%)
Considering how long Shattered Temple has been out, the meta-game shifts and balance changes that have occured over the time frame, those stats are pretty pointless anyway. You'll find that the winrates for the map roughly follow the overall shifting winrates for the game as a whole. Your balance argument is stupid.
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I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
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On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote:I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps. Like how hard is it for them to figure this out? I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are? Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins. Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has. so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
Yeah Shattered Temple is absolute shit in ZvP if the Protoss FFEs. We're either forced to go all in, take a 3rd really far away, or make a bunch of lings to kill either the rocks at the gold or to the pocket expansion. I would be fine with Shattered Temple staying in the map pool if they changed the gold to a blue base and removed the rocks or something along those lines. As it is right now it's so fucking bad.
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Shattered and Korhal'd be out for me. Antiga needs forced cross positions.
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On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote:I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps. Like how hard is it for them to figure this out? I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are? Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins. Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has. so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
You want protoss to make the nexus part of the walloff on shattered temple? Look at how far the minerals/nexus is back from the bottom of the ramp. That would be one hell of a big wall off!
Why is roach allin strong? Because the choke is so wide. How else can you abuse the wide choke? 10 pool (etc). You dont have to go allin, you can screw any protoss who tries to FFE on shattered. Instead, you see zergs 10 pooling on cloud and hatch first on shattered, then complain that the maps favour protoss too much.
Play to the map.
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On March 15 2012 22:03 Exigaet wrote:Show nested quote +On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote:I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps. Like how hard is it for them to figure this out? I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are? Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/ Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins. Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has. so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same. Yeah Shattered Temple is absolute shit in ZvP if the Protoss FFEs. We're either forced to go all in, take a 3rd really far away, or make a bunch of lings to kill either the rocks at the gold or to the pocket expansion. I would be fine with Shattered Temple staying in the map pool if they changed the gold to a blue base and removed the rocks or something along those lines. As it is right now it's so fucking bad.
Why are you letting protoss just FFE on shattered? As I keep saying, the minerals are too far from the ramp. At the vert least you should be forcing 2 cannons before nexus.
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i hope shattered has to go!
cant see that map any longer without crying !
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****SPOILER LOTS OF QQ*****As a Zerg player Ohana looks like a nightmare. Easy 3 base for Terran and no good fourth base for a mutalisking Zerg. Time for ling infestor..... WHICH I HATE BTW!!!!
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Voted shattered to keep ladder more consistent with most league map pools.
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I think the number of ladder maps is too much currently. I would like blizzard to get rid of all the old maps. Shakuras, shattered, metalopolis. And fix some of the current. Like antiga to be only cross and most of the positions in TDA also suffer from quite a bit of imbalance in some matchups. So with some fixes not one but 3 maps removed we could be seeing a pretty good overall balanced map pool.
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EPT
