"We recently invited you to help us choose two Global StarCraft II League (GSL) maps for the StarCraft II ladder map pool. We’re excited to now announce the winners of that poll. These GSL tournament maps will be joining the ladder pool in season 7:
, the community created map by IronManSC and Team ESV, will also be joining the map pool.
Not only will Daybreak, Metropolis, and Ohana be joining the map pool, but we’re also experimenting with expanding the overall size of the pool from eight maps to ten in season 7.
Even though the pool is growing larger, this means that one of the old maps must go. Now it’s time to cast your vote on the map you believe should be retired from the season 7 ladder pool. One week from today, we’ll tally your votes and bid farewell to the map you selected.
When choosing which map should go, please keep these qualities in mind:
If I could get rid of two, it would be shakuras and metalopolis for sure. With just one though, I'd pick metal to go. It has seen enough play I would think.
OMG Ohana is the worst map possible back door nat and no 3rd anywhere if you are P or T..... I played it couple of times in playhem maybe I'm bad but i don't like this map.
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
Shattered because of fun and balance(so many fucking rocks + no safe well-timed third = not fun or balanced)
Entombed because of balance.
Overall, Shattered needs to go more because it's not fun and the rocks create balance issues while entombed just has balance issues in zvp to my knowledge.
Off topic, do Protoss slaughter Terran on entombed as well?
Actually upon further thought, the 3 options I would like to see go are metal(horrid pvp map because cannons exist, also old), shattered (just bad design, old), and shakuras, which I feel is just insanely imbalanced at different phases of the game for different races.
yeah, I'm not really sure which map I'd remove... I like metalopolis better, but Shattered is a bit more toss favored, so I guess there's that... Shakuras is getting pretty old as well...
Keep in mind that if they're going up to 10 maps, only 1 is going to get removed, but at least if they remove metal or shattered i can downvote the other one.
Now how about those team maps? Fix 2v2, 3v3, and 4v4 maps and I will be a happy man. I prefer to watch 1v1 pro matches, but I prefer to play team games... :D
I voted for Shattered. It's awesome Blizzard is doing this though - in my opinion they're really getting their shit together. We'll see how daybreak gets implemented, I have a feeling/hope they'll do the right thing and not touch the middle bases.
On March 14 2012 10:17 acrimoneyius wrote: bye bye, shattered it was nice knowing you
Yes please. Metal and Shak may be old, but at least they are still playable.
Yep. Shattered is brutal, instant thumb down for any zerg player. Shakuras is boring and split map make 10 planetaries and 10 turrets never attack lame alt tab gg.
Man this is tough... Meta is the least fun map to play in sc2. It also has the worst naturals, and the 3rds are horrible for terran/toss vs zerg.
Shattered is pretty imbalanced, fun for terran players though! ^_<
I still think Shakuras is a great map, one of the best actually. It gives amazing games, the natural is great, and the 3rd is accessible but not easy.
I would normally vote for shattered but.. since bnet doesnt force x position on meta its just ridiculous 50% of the time, and slighly ridiculous the other 50%.
As a Z I most want Shakuras to go but I'm also good with seeing Shat and Metal go. Tal.. I guess I can deal with that Any good maps in, and any bad maps out = more effective vetoing to cover the loose ends! I can't wait for the new map pool!
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
You really, really, really need to put the 3rd on Korhal in a less retarded location =.=
I wish I could get more people to vote for ffffuuu....... Entomed Valley. It's probably top 3 worst map in the last year from a Zerg perspective! It's litterally bad in every single match up.
Vs toss if you let them come into the natural or third area you might as well GG out. The ridiculously small corriodors can litterally block of your entire army with just 2 force fields! Also there is noooo way to attack the protoss third. I have had massive lead where I could usually end the game, but because they can wall everything of with a bare minimum of buildings AND it's all high ground - it's litterally impenetrable.
Vs Zerg you cannot do any kind of early expand play. The ramp is miles away from the natural making both spines and queens at the ramp incredibly bad and both are a necessity if you want to expand. So you are basically forced into bane wars, which is silly since the map is already huge. It's litterally the same as a map in pvp where you are more or less forced to 4 gate.
Vs Terran it's semi okay - As long as it's not close position! If it's close then you cannot take your natural third forcing you to expand soo far away which makes defending against drops incredibly hard and even if you get the drop you are going to have a massive tank marine force right out side your base. It's kinda okay in the other positions but once again - you cannot attack the third at all which is kinda bad design.
***The Remove Entomed Valley March 2012 Campaign***
On March 14 2012 10:21 monitor wrote: Copied from my post on the blog,
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
You really, really, really need to put the 3rd on Korhal in a less retarded location =.=
lololol
I voted Shattered, I've had that map vetoed for so long I forgot it was actually in the map pool.
edit: When you think of this voting as like a permanent veto its actually a lot better and having more than 1 vote is unnecessary (I guess unless you hate 5 of the maps in the potential map pool). As long as one of your veto choices gets removed you've done well out of the vote.
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
That's why I voted for Shakuras. Shakuras isn't a fun map to play, nor to watch. When I tune in to watch a tourney game and I see the map is shakuras I'm so disappointed. Metalopolis and tal'darim are actually much better maps than Shakuras in my opinion. Bad, but better than that map.
Regardless of the outcome I feel so great at the progress of maps in sc2. Think back a nine months or a year when the Shakuras Plateau with backdoor rocks was taken out of the ladder map pool. The community created a fervor and the map was altered and placed back into the pool. Today that same map is largely regarded as one of the worse maps.
Shattered is a bad map, but I'm so tired of playing Tal Darim that I had to vote for that. Forced 4 gate PvP and mutaspine hell PvZ... Tal Darim out, please.
On March 14 2012 10:21 monitor wrote: Copied from my post on the blog,
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
You really, really, really need to put the 3rd on Korhal in a less retarded location =.=
Working on it Some details would be appreciated though!
On March 14 2012 10:21 Liquid`Jinro wrote: Fuck, Shattered or Metal so difficult to choose -_-
I would have thought a Terran would have loved Close-Air Shattered? Am I just bad and get destroyed by drops constantly?
It's Jinro. The same God Terran who said he hated Meta back when close spawns were possible, because of close spawns. Shattered is terrible, plain and simple.
I posted this in the comments of the link but it will probably be ignored by blizzard (actually my post will probably be ignored PERIOD)
The main problem with the map pool is that there are simply too many maps. What this does is force players to take a very general approach to strategies on all the maps instead of figuring out the map in its entirety. Of course, having only 5 maps can be very stale for 2 months for players. What I suggest (and this will most likely be ignored) is to take a more active role by blizzard in the map pool. For example, for 2 weeks, allow only 5 maps in the rotation with 1 veto; 4 maps is a manageable amount to practice for tournaments. The following 2 weeks will include a different set of maps with possibly the inclusion of the most popular map (the one least veto'ed) carrying over for only 1 week before switched out. This system allows players to be specialized in specific maps (more), introduce a dynamic play with different maps in the rotation, and allow upcoming maps to be tested by the public
On March 14 2012 10:19 Severus_ wrote: OMG Ohana is the worst map possible back door nat and no 3rd anywhere if you are P or T..... I played it couple of times in playhem maybe I'm bad but i don't like this map.
is this before or after they changed it? because there's no backdoor into the nat and there seems to be a fairly obvious third that is relatively easy to wall off
Because I really couldn't choose between Metalopolis and Shattered Temple I ended up voting Tal'Darim because of the sad state of PvP on that map. The fact that Shattered and Meta are vetoed by me might have added to that decision.
On March 14 2012 10:42 Cereb wrote: I wish I could get more people to vote for ffffuuu....... Entomed Valley. It's probably top 3 worst map in the last year from a Zerg perspective! It's litterally bad in every single match up.
Vs toss if you let them come into the natural or third area you might as well GG out. The ridiculously small corriodors can litterally block of your entire army with just 2 force fields! Also there is noooo way to attack the protoss third. I have had massive lead where I could usually end the game, but because they can wall everything of with a bare minimum of buildings AND it's all high ground - it's litterally impenetrable.
Vs Zerg you cannot do any kind of early expand play. The ramp is miles away from the natural making both spines and queens at the ramp incredibly bad and both are a necessity if you want to expand. So you are basically forced into bane wars, which is silly since the map is already huge. It's litterally the same as a map in pvp where you are more or less forced to 4 gate.
Vs Terran it's semi okay - As long as it's not close position! If it's close then you cannot take your natural third forcing you to expand soo far away which makes defending against drops incredibly hard and even if you get the drop you are going to have a massive tank marine force right out side your base. It's kinda okay in the other positions but once again - you cannot attack the third at all which is kinda bad design.
***The Remove Entomed Valley March 2012 Campaign***
You should see the games where zergs make a wall of spinecrawlers and slow push across the map with brood lord infestor while you think to yourself "WTF does Protoss do to that?" I agree close positions suck, but all in all it's actually a pretty decent map.
I like shattered. At least I can play a normal PvP on it unlike Tal'darim... Sorry, I want to practice actual PvP not mindless 4 gate vs 4 gate who can be more greedy and still defend etcetc
Unfortunately, due to the insane amount of bad zergs on the bnet forums they will vote out Shattered.
I think metal and shattered temple should both go. Really looking forward to Daybreak and Metropolis, although I wish they picked Belshir Beach or Dual Sight as the third map instead of Ohana.
Awww, so much dislike for Tal'Darim for some reason. It's at least better and fresher than the older maps like Metalopolis and Shattered, and it has proven to be extremely balanced.
I'll be especially interested to see what changes Blizzard will make to Daybreak and Metropolis.
Great to see Blizzard putting in so much effort to change the map pool, especially after over a year of the community clamoring for this to happen. Their focus seems to have greatly shifted to e-sports recently, especially since Blizzard was planning that whole massive grass-roots qualifier process for their next Blizzard invitational, which is probably why they are filling the map pool with actual competitive maps instead of casual stuff since Blizzard will probably be partially relying on ladder play for those qualifiers.
See Ohana, nod appreciatively. See rocks to break to get the third, zerg heart breaks. Ah well it's not too far around I guess I could take it and break the rocks a little afterwards, just a tiny bit more risky. Personally I think I'll vote Tal'darim to go. I do like it but I only like actually playing on it TvZ.
On March 14 2012 10:21 monitor wrote: Copied from my post on the blog,
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
You really, really, really need to put the 3rd on Korhal in a less retarded location =.=
Working on it Some details would be appreciated though!
Details:
You can siege the third from the high ground. The attack path around the siege area is relatively narrow and long, so it's actually pretty easy to siege up there and then just defend that siege point. If people want to attack you, they have to go up and around from the low ground (death), go all the way up the middle of the map almost to the attackers base and then go down and around the side toward your own fourth and then hope to flank from behind while bum rushing the corridor from your natural over in a pincer. Which, really, isn't "hard", and my explanation is over-complicated to try to give detail, but the end point is...why can you so easily siege that third so safely?
It's far away from the main, relatively speaking. It's like taking the straight up and down as your third on Shakuras, except instead of an easy to maneuver open area, you have high and low ground and walls.
It's very open from the side making it really easy to run-by attack, with very little room to drop behind it (especially without being seen) because the map just ends behind it, and there's so much open from the side that's just flat. Those have equal arguments positive and negative, but they're still things to bring up.
personally i don't like the map as a whole because it reminds me of a complicated xel'naga caverns, where you took the golds, dragged them to the far ends, made them blue, and called them a "fourth" base, and then put low ground in the middle. The low ground, which really, is still so open that it almost doesn't serve a purpose except giving anything at the towers more time to run away.
I voted for Korhal. I know shattered and meta are pretty much gone, thats why i decided to pick Korhal. Its not the best map to FFE. The third is kinda retarded to defend. It seems close, but against mutas, for example, is a pain. Especially whit that forest between the third and the natural.
As the creator of Korhal Compound, I voted to remove Shakuras Plateau. Why?
Almost no tournaments use Metalopolis, TalDarim, or Shattered Temple- so I don't care that they're in ladder because I'll downvote them. However, tournaments do use Shakuras Plateau - it's really old and considered fairly imbalanced (see TLPD statistics). Removing it from ladder would realistically remove it from competitive play.
I feel like I see taldarim in tournaments a decent amount, was used at MLG/IEM so I wouldn't say no tournaments play that map (I was only listing big tournaments not online cups). Metal is only MLG so still used and Shakuras MLG/IEM/Assembly so only 1 more major tournament shakuras is in then tal/metal so not as many use shakuras and not metal/tald/shat as you might think (was not again counting online tournaments as alot of them still use these maps)
I pick Metal. It's old and overplayed and completely figured out in the worst possible ways (fkin PvP cheeses get creative for no reason on this map..)
As a P player, banshee harass being able to just fly off into a safe zone in such close proximity to minerals on Metal makes no sense. At all. At least on shattered that kind of senseless abuse isn't possible.
Personally I want Korhal Compound LE out I hate trying to take a quick 3rd on it as terran and I feel you need to make it a planetary or it is to easy to attack.
On March 14 2012 11:40 Son of Gnome wrote: Personally I want Korhal Compound LE out I hate trying to take a quick 3rd on it as terran and I feel you need to make it a planetary or it is to easy to attack.
Same for Protoss as well, except we don't have planetaries. It's just a difficult third to defend, which I feel is quite outdated in the modern metagame. We're trying to discourage 2 base play, Korhal feels like a step back.
On March 14 2012 11:40 Son of Gnome wrote: Personally I want Korhal Compound LE out I hate trying to take a quick 3rd on it as terran and I feel you need to make it a planetary or it is to easy to attack.
Same for Protoss as well, except we don't have planetaries. It's just a difficult third to defend, which I feel is quite outdated in the modern metagame. We're trying to discourage 2 base play, Korhal feels like a step back.
I agree. You need a shit ton of cannons to defend both sides. Even ling runbys are super strong there. Roaches can snipe your third so easily. I hope they fix it or just get rid of it.
I was going to vote for Metalopolis because of removed close positions and how hard it is to defend expansions but I like destroying the Mengsk statues.
Hope enough people do the sensible thing and vote out Shattered Temple instead of Metalopolis. Sure Metalopolis is a tad zerg favoured, but Shattered Temple is pretty much unplayable for zergs.
On March 14 2012 12:01 Darknat wrote: I was going to vote for Metalopolis because of removed close positions and how hard it is to defend expansions but I like destroying the Mengsk statues.
I got to say Shakuras, Shattered, and Metal. I will miss those maps back in the beta but there time has served. At least they are getting a decent replacement like Xel Naga caverns.
On March 14 2012 11:56 L3g3nd_ wrote: voted for TDA out. PvP on it is silly, and PvZ on it is imbalanced. That leaves 1 MU that is playable on it
Wait, what? Are you talking about from Protoss perspective? TDA favors protoss PvZ... and if you're not speaking from Protoss perspective, you forgot six other match-ups.
On March 14 2012 12:15 DannyJ wrote: I hope they do something to Ohanas tileset... It's amazingly ugly and distracting.
Desert tilesets have their own appeal. I actually like how Ohana looks.
It isn't as pretty as it used to be, but they had to take out the water for performance reasons. Wonder if they'll have to tone down Metropolis for the same reason.
Hmm, dunno why everyone likes Daybreak so much. Every game I've watched on it is a struggle for certain races to secure the 3rd, bit like Metalopolis imo.
I'm sure a few dozen people will link hundreds of replays to prove me wrong ofc... But yeah, think I might veto it :/
On March 14 2012 10:20 RemoteLink wrote: Shak Plat, Metal, and Shattered are all much better maps than Korhal and Cloud Kingdom.
metal and shattered are much worse i actually would be ok with shattered if they removed the gold bases but its still boring and with the wide open middle its just a smaller crapier version of taldrim imo
On March 14 2012 12:01 nonsequitur wrote: Hope enough people do the sensible thing and vote out Shattered Temple instead of Metalopolis. Sure Metalopolis is a tad zerg favoured, but Shattered Temple is pretty much unplayable for zergs.
You realize it's a hugely zerg favored ZvP map? =.= It's a terran map TvZ, but not by as much as it is a zerg map ZvP.
On March 14 2012 12:33 Depetrify wrote: I think Cloud Kingdom is incredibly zerg favored.
Blizzard is being so awesome this week, I hope it keeps up.
All the run-by paths make it slightly Zerg favored. But since the side path into the third relatively easy to wall with gateways/cannons or supply depots/bunkers, I think it's still pretty balanced.
I voted for metal and shattered. Honestly I just want to see some of the oldest maps out of here and some new ones in the loop. There are so many amazing map creators out there, should just use more of those. Even the GSL maps are constantly changed. Just gets so boring playing so many games on the same maps for months and years at a time.
On March 14 2012 12:01 nonsequitur wrote: Hope enough people do the sensible thing and vote out Shattered Temple instead of Metalopolis. Sure Metalopolis is a tad zerg favoured, but Shattered Temple is pretty much unplayable for zergs.
You realize it's a hugely zerg favored ZvP map? =.= It's a terran map TvZ, but not by as much as it is a zerg map ZvP.
If you have ever read the zerg map veto threads in the strategy forum you would see that most zergs do not realise this :p They see the rocks at their third and dont even consider the shape of the protoss natural (hint: look at how far away the bottom of the ramp is from the mineral line).
On March 14 2012 12:01 nonsequitur wrote: Hope enough people do the sensible thing and vote out Shattered Temple instead of Metalopolis. Sure Metalopolis is a tad zerg favoured, but Shattered Temple is pretty much unplayable for zergs.
You realize it's a hugely zerg favored ZvP map? =.= It's a terran map TvZ, but not by as much as it is a zerg map ZvP.
If you have ever read the zerg map veto threads in the strategy forum you would see that most zergs do not realise this :p They see the rocks at their third and dont even consider the shape of the protoss natural (hint: look at how far away the bottom of the ramp is from the mineral line).
The reason zergs don't like it is because you can't play "standard" ZvP on it. It's a very strong map for 2base roach/ling all-in vs P however, but most players, atleast non-pros, most likely prefer to play standard 3hatch opening vs P rather than all-in.
Can't wait for metropolis! Looks amazing and feels great, haven't had many games on it yet, but i like maps with long land/close air positions. Promotes muta/sg/drop play which is on the more interesting end of the spectrum.
On March 14 2012 12:01 nonsequitur wrote: Hope enough people do the sensible thing and vote out Shattered Temple instead of Metalopolis. Sure Metalopolis is a tad zerg favoured, but Shattered Temple is pretty much unplayable for zergs.
You realize it's a hugely zerg favored ZvP map? =.= It's a terran map TvZ, but not by as much as it is a zerg map ZvP.
If you have ever read the zerg map veto threads in the strategy forum you would see that most zergs do not realise this :p They see the rocks at their third and dont even consider the shape of the protoss natural (hint: look at how far away the bottom of the ramp is from the mineral line).
The reason zergs don't like it is because you can't play "standard" ZvP on it. It's a very strong map for 2base roach/ling all-in vs P however, but most players, atleast non-pros, most likely prefer to play standard 3hatch opening vs P rather than all-in.
You dont need to roach/ling allin, but you do need a separate build just for that map. I have PvZ builds just for shattered. Then again I have PvZ builds for cloud, korhal and shakuras, so it might just be me with different builds for different maps.
I don't get why ohana, it really doesn't look like a good or balanced map :/ I really don't get why people like it. Also I voted to get rid of cloud kingdom it's a very awful map for zerg with way too many chokes.
Why do people hate Metalopolis? It's always been one of the most solid maps which is why it's lived such a long life of popularity. Tal'darim, Shattered and Shakuras are getting stale though. Metalopolis is solid, the hate is dumb and stupid, very stupid and dumb.
On March 14 2012 12:55 Areon wrote: Why do people hate Metalopolis? It's always been one of the most solid maps which is why it's lived such a long life of popularity. Tal'darim, Shattered and Shakuras are getting stale though. Metalopolis is solid, the hate is dumb and stupid, very stupid and dumb.
Because it's an awful map that should have been removed ages ago. Close air positions suck horribly, the map is almost an auto win for zerg PvZ due to the gold base and the ridiculously open natural, and a number of other reasons.
It's great that they're adding 3 good maps (as long as they don't fuck with them, I can just picture blizzard turning the middle bases on daybreak into gold bases with 2 geysers, despite the fact that these bases are taken nearly every game on this map that goes long), and it's good that they're cutting some of the terrible maps that were around before, but they need to get rid of some more of them. It's time Tal'darim, Metalopolis, Shattered, and Shakuras all went.
On March 14 2012 12:55 Areon wrote: Why do people hate Metalopolis? It's always been one of the most solid maps which is why it's lived such a long life of popularity. Tal'darim, Shattered and Shakuras are getting stale though. Metalopolis is solid, the hate is dumb and stupid, very stupid and dumb.
I voted for Korhal. It's a strong PvP proxy map and it's both hard to FFE and take a third on. I'd also really like it if they removed Shattered Temple, Metalopolis, removed close positions on Entombed Valley, made Antiga Shipyard cross spots only, and removed all gold bases from all maps. Do all of that and even as a Protoss player I will gladly let Shakuras Plateau go.
two maps should be going really, shattered has been there for way too long and has proved to be not the best map out there, metalopolis I wouldnt have an issue with if it wasnt for the gold base really, although it did create some entertaining "lift off" tournament games.
The tileset of Ohana is quite distracting. I played it a few times at online tournaments. I also feel Zerg is very strong on that map. I'll give it a good try but I suspect it might get a veto.
I will sacrifice Metal for shattered and shakuras. Just three season ago, we still had close positions and maps like xel'naga in the map pool. Things done changed.
On March 14 2012 13:03 Yoinhell wrote: I voted for Korhal. It's a strong PvP proxy map and it's both hard to FFE and take a third on. I'd also really like it if they removed Shattered Temple, Metalopolis, removed close positions on Entombed Valley, made Antiga Shipyard cross spots only, and removed all gold bases from all maps. Do all of that and even as a Protoss player I will gladly let Shakuras Plateau go.
On korhal in PvZ you can make a 3 gateway wall to block off the 4th and cannon behind it. One wall secures two bases. You just cant ideally take the 3rd until after you need to add 3 more gates, so you want to do a robo or stargate opening.
even as a toss i love tal darim, i hardly ever get pvp on it ad some of my most awsome games are on it!. metal is zerg favored, shatteredgoodbye, never liked you much anyway, daybreak o boy you look nice, can we at least try tweaking entombed and korhal? on entombed perhaps make third ramp a mega ramp like on tal darim? as well as the path between the bases a little widder. korhal the third needs to be fixed obviously il leave that up to monitor because many people have voiced the correct concerns with that map.
il never understnd why there are never patches for maps, because i feel little changes to em can make em a whole lot better because at the current state im not seeing that much balance in all the maps, however a feel little changes could greatly help that i think.
I voted for Entombed Valley. Even though I play protoss, I just don't enjoy playing games on the map. Can't remember one fun game I've played on it. Same goes for Shattered, but I only had one vote.
Used both of my accounts to vote for Shattered. I hate that map. Though I can understand why all the Protoss on there hate it between 4gate and mass mutas. I'm super pumped for Daybreak. I practice that map a ton already when I practice macroing so I'm already familiar with it.
Also, as per usual the comments are gold.
Can all the people who hate close spawns (aka exciting games) just go play sim city and stop whining?
This one is particularly bad:
vote for cloud kingdom the map is absolute garbage. ESV has the worst mapmakers next to blizzard. Use GSL maps, screw awful ESV maps made by silvers and golds.
"ESV is bad, Cloud Kingdom is bad. use GSL maps"... *facedesk*
Ohana is so ridiculous. It's almost as if the creator couldn't whine more about Zerg's overpoweredness. Quick, we need to give rooms for Mutas to shoot so that Protoss can't punish Zergs for massing so many mutas instead of trying different ways .... =.=
Note: This is from the changelist where the entire changes that were listed were completely ZvP, fixed Zerg not having this and that. There's no, oh we should probably decrease choke size so that Protoss has a chance for a nice FFE.
On March 14 2012 13:41 Ben... wrote: Used both of my accounts to vote for Shattered. I hate that map. Though I can understand why all the Protoss on there hate it between 4gate and mass mutas. I'm super pumped for Daybreak. I practice that map a ton already when I practice macroing so I'm already familiar with it.
vote for cloud kingdom the map is absolute garbage. ESV has the worst mapmakers next to blizzard. Use GSL maps, screw awful ESV maps made by silvers and golds.
"ESV is bad, Cloud Kingdom is bad. use GSL maps"... *facedesk*
if i had to pick one to remove based upon the 'options' bliz gave us to consider, i would more than likely go with Shattered....wasnt a great map when it was 'lost temple' and proceeded to be equally not as great as Shattered temple....
Although I don't have any MAJOR problems with any of the maps.. Shattered, Metal, and Shakuras need to be retired. Maybe Tal Darim as well. We're coming out with newer and better maps, and they're just inflating the map pool.
It was between shattered and metal for me, but I voted shattered. I don't like all of the destructible rocks on that map. If I want to take a fast 3rd as zerg, it has to be on the other side of the map, and can be very challenging to defend. On the other hand, securing a 3rd as T or P seems to be easier since the only way into to the 3rd is through those rocks, and the top of the ramp can be walled off with just 3 buildings.
These new maps are sick and I cannot wait to see shattered temple get removed from the map pool. Ladder play was getting a bit stale and some fresh new maps should help spice up the gameplay.
To be honest I've never had such a big issue with Shattered as Z. Get a little creative and don't theory yourself to death trying to take such a fast 3rd, especially with how easy it is to defend the 3rd once you do get the rocks down. Surprised to see Metal with so many votes when there is crap like Entombed and TD in the pool just because people are "tired of it." I'd rather play the same old map as long as it is playable. I don't have enough games on Korhal and CK to say definitively. With 10 maps in the pool I wonder if we will get more vetos... I liked the idea of having fewer maps in tournaments, seems like Blizz is going the opposite way with ladder.
WTF @ Metropolis? That map is really awkward to play on and always ends in splitmap until lategame unless it's a mirror or one of the players decide that they wanna lose the game by trying to move out. t_t
voted for shattered because that map feels too restricted in strategies by the rocks. i think the map would actually maybe become good if all rocks were removed on it (aswell as gold base changed to blue ofc)
anyway it is what it is and i hope blizzard learns in the future not to restrict the players to 2base play for so long, the options should be wide open and the players should choose how they want to play rather than the map forcing upon something imo
On March 14 2012 14:38 Elem wrote: WTF @ Metropolis? That map is really awkward to play on and always ends in splitmap until lategame unless it's a mirror or one of the players decide that they wanna lose the game by trying to move out. t_t
lol i kind of agree. however im still going to enjoy playing on that map more than shattered temple
Well Cloud Kingdom is the best map at the moment(at least in my book).Ohana and Daybreak sound's good to but i hate Metropolis don't know why...maybe it's just me
Ohana doesn't seem balanced to me. Terrible for vZ match-ups. Back door at the natural (makes a FFE very impractical), and you would have to essentially max out with a LOT of AoE damage before you could ever hope to take a third if you risk a massive ling, muta, or roach attack.
10 maps total?? kind of a lot. maybe we will get additional vetoes so that is alright they need to get rid of tda, or do something with the ramp so pvp isn't unplayable there and thus a wasted veto for protoss players.. unless they like that kind of thing :/
I really like to have maps where map control isn't 100% necessary because zerg lacks a unit to give map control if the zerg is behind. (other than spines)
Tal'darim, without ramps, is one of those maps.
What I love about cloud kingdom and korhal compound is that styles of play with speedy units like ling + infestor or muta will prefer to get the 2nd choice expo because that allows for them to counter while evacuating drones. Roach play would favor the close expansion.
As a final note, Blizzard is doing an amazing thing with these polls. Eventually we will get a super-pool of maps that produce games of pure joy. I seriously cannot wait to see what the map pool will be like in a years time.
This is such awesome news, I voted for the Shattered Temple to go.
First I just want to say that it's amazing Blizzard is including GSL and community maps like we asked. Even if Ohana isn't the best choice, it's a step in the right direction. I also like that they allowed us to vote on the recent GSL map choices, I hope they stick with that. I think Blizz should and probably will let us vote on the community maps they include in the future, as well.
If this keeps up the entire map pool will be playable for me in just a few seasons Starcraft 2 is slowly becoming a great game and I'm honestly overjoyed that Blizz is seeing the light on the map pool issue. It reassures me that they do listen to us and actually care about making our playing experience better. Except for changes to balance, nothing affects my game play like the map pool.
All that said, I don't like that they're expanding the map pool and I'd be satisfied if they kept it at 8. I'll always use all of my vetoes just to limit the amount of maps that I have to learn, which currently leaves 5. I think 5 is a good number of maps to learn for ladder play. I'd much rather see them remove, or let us vote to remove, 1-2 more maps (Tal'Darim and Entombed Valley imo) to make room for these new maps, rather than expanding the total pool by 2. If they expand the map pool by 2 more maps then I hope they'll give us one more veto, playing on 6 maps doesn't sound that bad to me either.
Edit: Blizzard, if you read these feedback threads, please take the GSL's example and make more of your maps (Antiga Shipyard!) cross spawn only!!! My advice would be that if the GSL or MLG use your maps but edits them, update your maps to match their updates. Cross spawn on maps with too much symmetrical imbalance, neutral supply depots, etc. make the game more interesting by making more strategies viable.
David Kim: Hey, DB, did you heard there are like 200 starcraft 2 pro players that like... play starcraft 2, 6 to 12 hours a day ! Dustin Browder: You serious ? Well you know what i was thinking, lets decide what we map to get in the ladder pool by doing a community pool where everyone can vote ! David Kim: Hmmh, thats a wonderful idea but you know what, its not enough, we should make sure the map are the same from bronze to GM and people only get 3 vetos Dustin Browder: Bazim dude, thats a great system
And this is how the idea was generated ?
I mean, im fine with meta and st going out now and the maps that are getting in are fine but will it be the same next season ? Does the tl community really want to take the chances by saying " Weeeeeeeeeeeee this is a great system" and than realize that the maps removed in the next season are TDA and Entombed valley to add some community made maps which will likely not be as good ( cuz those map are the ones on the 3rd and 4th place in the pool atm ). I am oky with pooling the community, its a great thing, and more game developers should do it. But when it is about maps, and you have PROFESSIONAL community member you can pool, whats the point in not pooling them ? Again, the pool are better than what they did in the last seasons but i still have no clue on why they wouldn't do a pro only pool if they want players to chose the maps.
Nice additions but in my opinion Shattered Temple, Metalopolis and MAYBE Tal'Darim Altar because of PvP need to go. Korhal is not very balanced on certain matchup either.
I might be one of the only ones who is gonna miss Shattered Temple, for some reason I always liked the map . I wouldn't miss Metalopolis or Shakuras though.
On March 14 2012 13:51 ScythedBlade wrote: Ohana is so ridiculous. It's almost as if the creator couldn't whine more about Zerg's overpoweredness. Quick, we need to give rooms for Mutas to shoot so that Protoss can't punish Zergs for massing so many mutas instead of trying different ways .... =.=
Note: This is from the changelist where the entire changes that were listed were completely ZvP, fixed Zerg not having this and that. There's no, oh we should probably decrease choke size so that Protoss has a chance for a nice FFE.
The stats in general are not large enough to really determine what MU is favored and what isn't.
Based on the ESV Korean Weekly and NASL, these are ohana's early stats:
TvZ: 11-6 ZvP: 9-5 PvT: 7-5
For someone to call it a zerg map already is out of the question. Let's let season 7 determine what the map deserves.
As for the PvZ match-up, there were considerable issues that needed to be addressed for Zerg in particular. Scouting a FFE was found to be very hard (including the many masters games I've tested on it). it is essential to the metagame that zerg needs to have even a little information on a FFE -- in this case, the double gas on the natural. Without it, Zergs are almost (if not fully) clueless on what toss is doing. Several maps do this as well, like shakuras, metalopolis.
The primary fixes were to the natural.
I don't whine about balance, because It's not my cup of tea.
I just want to say congratulations to Ironman for making an awesome map in Ohana :D Of the matches I have played on it, it has quickly become one of my favorite maps.
However I do have a concern about the PvZ matchup. Having played as the Protoss and Zerg side of the matchup many times on the map I have a feeling that it is a bit Zerg Favored. Not enough to make it unplayable but I am a bit worried. I usually am able to secure my third very easily and mass a bunch of mutas with ease and kill the Protoss while they struggle to take a third and the 2 base timings can be defended much easier than on most maps due to its layout.
I like it. Shattered and Metalopolis should go. The only problem I could see is mutas in PvZ on Metropolis. The way the mineral lines are spread out is gonna make it so easy to swing around... From what I've seen Daybreak is just a fantastic map.
shak is kind of odd. from a toss perspective, it's alright. one of those maps you can expo pvp without clutching your bosom. pvz kind of hard to take a 3rd but not incredibly bad. pvt kind of hard to take a 3rd but not too bad. my only real qualm with it is when you're playing vs avilo at the 30 min mark he can set up pf/turret/ghost/viking/bc and you can't really take a 5th. other than that not so bad
Great new maps! Daybreak and Metropolis are awesome and Ohana looks really interesting as well!
I don't see why they need to increase the map pool size, as there are enough maps that could be thrown out in my opinion (Shattered, Metal, Tal'darim, Sharkuras), but anyways.. really nice that the community gets more involved now!
The new maps all look good (even Ohana, which I didn't like at first, but after a closer inspection seems fine to me, even though taking a fourth, when the games comes to it, might be quite hard).
From all the current maps, it's a tie between Korhal and Metalopolis. Korhal I hate more, but I have both of them vetoed.
Great news, i also voted for Daybreak. I think since the interview in Blizzcon with Kennigit, D. Browder is more aware of what the community wants. You could see he had some "insights" during the interview regarding the ladder map pool and the choice of maps.
I really hope it's shattered... Hate that map so much. Have had it vetoed since it was called Lost Temple, and I still think it should be vetoed always. I refuse to play on that map anymore.
I like how we've moved from complaining about Blizzard maps into complaining about custom maps [at least a vocal minority]. Nothing ever pleases the community.
Anyways, nice to know they're phasing out the old maps and replacing it with community made maps.
Damn, vote wasted on Shakuras . Oh well, I love that there will be 10 awesome maps in the pool. Downvotes next season will stay the same: TDA, Shakuras and Metalopolis.
Daybreak, so long as it remains as it is - YEEEEESSSSSSSSS! Ohana - O RLY? Great! It will be very cool to try it out on ladder. Metropolis - Yeeeeeeuch! I cannot stand this map and this is guaranteed to be voted down for its entire stay on ladder.
I really would rather Shattered Temple is removed, though I'm not really very keen on this version of Tal'Darim Altar either, but at least the rush distances are longer there. I don't think I want any of the others to go, except that I haven't played on Korhal Comppund enough yet to form an opinion on it, but I think that should stay for another season for longer testing, same with Cloud Kindgom (except that I think that's a pretty good map), Antiga and Entombed. Not fussed if Metal goes, but I think there are better candidates. Shakuras is hard to say. I feel like I've had some great games here and am generally fond of the map, but I also have so horrible vs protoss memories where the tight passageways are disgusting and encourage lame deathballs and Force fielding everything into oblivion and then there's also that base (that protoss usually takes as their third) that is easy to harrass, leave by blinking into the main with an observer, harrass, blink back down or onto the southern/northern ramp (island expo area).... it goes on.
On March 14 2012 17:23 Noocta wrote: I love Khoral, don't take it out. TT Such a fun map for TvZ imo.
Really? 90% of ZvT for Korhal is
1) Terran hellion expands
2a) Terran attempts rine tank push or hellion rine drop
2b) Terran attempts greedy 3rd
3) I hold off attack or punish the greedy 3rd
4) Freely drone up to 80 after 2+3 and acquire 4 base
5) Roll him with Ultra Bane Infestor
Really boring imo and I feel sorry for the terrans who play that map vs Zerg t_t same with Cloud Kingdom.
Well you know, there's the version where terran do a succesfull marine hellion timing, then take a succesfull third ( i usualy take the one in the middle so i have a take off point to get to his third / fourth ), and then you can't drone yadi yada yada. The map is good for Ultra tho, since there's no nice spot for BLs anyway.
In the end, i don't know the stats on that map, but I like it. There's so many good siege spot too.
On March 14 2012 17:23 Noocta wrote: I love Khoral, don't take it out. TT Such a fun map for TvZ imo.
Really? 90% of ZvT for Korhal is
1) Terran hellion expands
2a) Terran attempts rine tank push or hellion rine drop
2b) Terran attempts greedy 3rd
3) I hold off attack or punish the greedy 3rd
4) Freely drone up to 80 after 2+3 and acquire 4 base
5) Roll him with Ultra Bane Infestor
Really boring imo and I feel sorry for the terrans who play that map vs Zerg t_t same with Cloud Kingdom.
Well you know, there's the version where terran do a succesfull marine hellion timing, then take a succesfull third ( i usualy take the one in the middle so i have a take off point to get to his third / fourth ), and then you can't drone yadi yada yada. The map is good for Ultra tho, since there's no nice spot for BLs anyway.
Hm, interesting. I always get 4 roaches with my spines on the natural (to secure fast 3rd if I don't see any hints of fastagression) so hellion rine pushes aren't that hard for me to deal with. It might work vs people who try to skip too many corners though.
Oh well, it's bound to be different at different levels (assuming we are on different levels at least) so guess it's hard to compare.
Oh my god I love Blizz so much right now o.o Although the S6 mappool is the best it's ever been, S7 is gonna top it off by a laaaaaaaaaaandslide. Seems like they finally get it <3
Can't wait to obtain a usable internet connection next monday... I'm on the sickest SC2 withdrawal right now ~
Voted Shattered Temple. The amount of rocks makes for a completely different meta game than any other map. It has needed to go for 3 or 4 seasons now. There hasn't been a worse map in the pool since Delta Quadrant.
I think Korhal is awesome. Not perfect, but a nice map.
Metalopolis is really boring, I downvoted this for a good amount of time now and I don't miss it a tiny bit.
In general Shakuras, Metalopolis and Shattered should all go, they have been around too long and all of them are really boring from a playstyle point of view. There is nothing interesting happening, if you reach a certain point in a specific matchup on Metalopolis you can be pretty sure how it turns out. There is very little interesting going on.
I don't know about Tal'darim for other races, but as a terran its one of my favourite maps. I see Tal'darim as some sort of Wings of Liberty Python. If we would see some more years of WoL it would fade away at some point and be considered pretty imbalanced, but right now its fine and produces nice straight up matches with good variety for most matchups.
Ohana re worst map in starcraft 2 history, size fucked up mainbase horrible natural horrible rocks horrible tileset horrible, so so so so so far from racial balance.
Fair play to blizzard finally listening! We get to vote for maps IN to the map pool in Metrolopolis and Daybreak and vote to get rid of one! Awesome.
Please kick shattered out the map is boring and hardly used in Tournaments no more! Lets try keep the ladder pool like tournament pools then all our favorite players can stream ladder more :D
They look fantastic, on Daybreak and Metropolis 15 hatch in ZvZ looks hard to hold though, the nat is tucked far behind the ramp and it doesn't look possible to cover the ramp and hatch with a spine. I haven't seen enough matches on those two to be sure. Did anyone see how it goes?
It's cool that we're adding GSL maps and getting rid of really old ones, but this 10 map bullshit is ridiculous. Unless they give like 5 vetoes, I don't see why would this be a good idea. Both tournament organizers and Blizzard neet to learn how practice works and reduce the total amount of maps a pro gamer, who takes part in at least 2 leagues and ladder, has to practice to not more than 7-8. That is the way you get quality games and drive strategy forward. With 10 ladder maps and the random maps tournaments throw in a pro may need to practice on upwards of 12 maps. That's just silly.
the three new maps look good cant wait to play them! shame that we can only get rid of one map the more I think about it But still every season the map pool is getting better!!! What a difference from warcraft 3 where we had to play the same maps pretty much constant for years!!!
New maps usually get filtered out over time, so I guess my vote will go for an old map. My reasoning for choosing shakuras over shat/meta is because of how split maps can make the game go silly willy.
On March 14 2012 10:42 Cereb wrote: I wish I could get more people to vote for ffffuuu....... Entomed Valley. It's probably top 3 worst map in the last year from a Zerg perspective! It's litterally bad in every single match up.
Vs toss if you let them come into the natural or third area you might as well GG out. The ridiculously small corriodors can litterally block of your entire army with just 2 force fields! Also there is noooo way to attack the protoss third. I have had massive lead where I could usually end the game, but because they can wall everything of with a bare minimum of buildings AND it's all high ground - it's litterally impenetrable.
Vs Zerg you cannot do any kind of early expand play. The ramp is miles away from the natural making both spines and queens at the ramp incredibly bad and both are a necessity if you want to expand. So you are basically forced into bane wars, which is silly since the map is already huge. It's litterally the same as a map in pvp where you are more or less forced to 4 gate.
Vs Terran it's semi okay - As long as it's not close position! If it's close then you cannot take your natural third forcing you to expand soo far away which makes defending against drops incredibly hard and even if you get the drop you are going to have a massive tank marine force right out side your base. It's kinda okay in the other positions but once again - you cannot attack the third at all which is kinda bad design.
***The Remove Entomed Valley March 2012 Campaign***
You should see the games where zergs make a wall of spinecrawlers and slow push across the map with brood lord infestor while you think to yourself "WTF does Protoss do to that?" I agree close positions suck, but all in all it's actually a pretty decent map.
It isn't so much about balance it's more just that the games plays out stupidly, and slow pushing spines across the map doesn't exactly add it to my list of greatest maps ever :p
So happy about Daybreak! It's my favorite map. Metropolis is nice, but it's tough against air play (banshee, muta, phoenix) - I'll probably like it as soon as I played it a few more times than I have now though!
Not so excited about Ohana. I didn't like the map, but maybe it's changed a little for the better when it's released into the pool.
Let korhal compound go out now, then I'm very satisfied xD
On March 14 2012 10:42 Cereb wrote: I wish I could get more people to vote for ffffuuu....... Entomed Valley. It's probably top 3 worst map in the last year from a Zerg perspective! It's litterally bad in every single match up.
Vs toss if you let them come into the natural or third area you might as well GG out. The ridiculously small corriodors can litterally block of your entire army with just 2 force fields! Also there is noooo way to attack the protoss third. I have had massive lead where I could usually end the game, but because they can wall everything of with a bare minimum of buildings AND it's all high ground - it's litterally impenetrable.
Vs Zerg you cannot do any kind of early expand play. The ramp is miles away from the natural making both spines and queens at the ramp incredibly bad and both are a necessity if you want to expand. So you are basically forced into bane wars, which is silly since the map is already huge. It's litterally the same as a map in pvp where you are more or less forced to 4 gate.
Vs Terran it's semi okay - As long as it's not close position! If it's close then you cannot take your natural third forcing you to expand soo far away which makes defending against drops incredibly hard and even if you get the drop you are going to have a massive tank marine force right out side your base. It's kinda okay in the other positions but once again - you cannot attack the third at all which is kinda bad design.
***The Remove Entomed Valley March 2012 Campaign***
You should see the games where zergs make a wall of spinecrawlers and slow push across the map with brood lord infestor while you think to yourself "WTF does Protoss do to that?" I agree close positions suck, but all in all it's actually a pretty decent map.
It isn't so much about balance it's more just that the games plays out stupidly, and slow pushing spines across the map doesn't exactly add it to my list of greatest maps ever :p
Well carriers come to mind. If only they didn't take forever to build :/
On March 14 2012 18:22 THM wrote: Wow, way to get all the huge maps in the map pool. -_- If shattered gets removed then this will become a very terran unfavored map pool. Me no like.
You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but the map pretty significantly favours terran and larger maps mainly just mean one base all-ins and so-called "abusive" builds will be weaker, so it would only affect the way you play terran if that is your style, not the race on the whole.
Good aditions. Glad to see that blizzard just keeps making pools for these changes. Also cool that shattered is on top on eu, though meta better win the eu pool, can't believe that many people vote for entombed T.T
I hope larger map pool also means more vetos though, depending on what goes I need vetos for korhal, shattered, meta and potentially orhana depending on how I feel about it. Also I wish they'd stick to 8 maps and just remove the maps listed by me above and replace them with orhana/daybreak/metropolis.
On March 14 2012 19:26 Asturas wrote: Oh god why... Please do not add Ohana and Daybreak. To be honest, I hate Metropolis too :/
I voted for Metalopolis but if I had 2 votes, second would go for Korhal Compound. Hands off Shattered Temple
How can anyone hate daybreak, i can understand Ohana and metropolis but daybreak is the best map in sc2 history. IMHO.
Ok, I don't hate Daybreak, but it is not the map I like to play on. But definitely I hate Ohana and Metropolis. If they remove Shattered Temple and leave Metalopolis and Korhal I will not have enough vetos I would like to veto out Korhal, Metalopolis, Ohana and Metropolis. Damn...
what's up with this trend in which almost all of the maps are of a size that you finish scouting all the positions by the 7th-8th minute mark... and everyone is like "omg yeah, more like this!"
On March 14 2012 19:45 n0ise wrote: what's up with this trend in which almost all of the maps are of a size that you finish scouting all the positions by the 7th-8th minute mark... and everyone is like "omg yeah, more like this!"
about the poll, voted shakuras but ... meh : - (
WTF? Daybreak, Ohana are 2-player maps, so u know where ur opponent is, and on Metropolis the opponent can spawn only on 2 positions
I voted out Tal'darim Altar LE. It's the worst map ever. Cheese is worse on taldarim from every point of view/ there is no choke/ ugly map/ there are imba positions that end the game.
Time to go Shattered Temple, fun times but you won't be missed. Good thing Blizz are actually making the ladder pool more tournament oriented, something they said aren't going to do. I like the new ladder map pool.
Shatered, metal and shakuras should go out, they've been here for too long. I wish they put in some more "experimental" maps which allow for way different playstyles, probably made by the community.
Even though the ladder map pool has gotten better this vote has really made me realize just how bad a lot of the pool still is.. The only 2 maps that I really like in the current pool are cloud kingdom and antiga, there's some bearable ones in there too, but Entombed, Metal, Shattered definitely need to go. They definitely need to be getting rid of more than just one...
WOW! Daybreak, Metropolis, and Ohana in and Shattered out? My day just got a lot better. If only Metalopolis was out too, then it'd be a ridiculously good map pool.
On March 14 2012 22:52 goswser wrote: Entombed valley is at 17% and it was just added to the map pool - wish blizzard and tournaments would stop using this map, its shit.
Entombed is somewhat shit in ZvP, but it's quite good in all the other matchups
Shattered is so old and fucking booooooooring. My vote however was selfishly Tal'darim, because I just hate that map (as a Terran). I hate playing some of the positions (it's statistically balanced, but with 13289751938759173 games on it, the positional imbalances would even out?) and TvT on it is really dull.
Why so much hate for PvP and mirrors on Tal'Darim? I play random and that's one map that I feel indifferent about. (except PvZ with mutalisks, that's a problem on any map except entombed)
I voted metalopolis out cause I'm sick of it. But honestly Shattered Temple and it's gold + rocks everywhere needs to be booted.
I dislike Metropolis as much as I dislike XNC. But blizz always has to add a wtf-is-this map every map pool change. It's almost for granted.
But hell yeah daybreak and ohana. Had many custom games on both for quite a while now.
Just as reference Huk voted Taldarim on the KR ladder(he specifies in comments). Shattered is equal with metalopolis in votes in KR voting. IMO taldarim should be the one to go. Imba spawn positions(if T spawns on same side as expo), no ramp to stop cheese, rocks @ third, bad map overall.
On March 14 2012 20:11 Ucs wrote: I voted out Tal'darim Altar LE. It's the worst map ever. Cheese is worse on taldarim from every point of view/ there is no choke/ ugly map/ there are imba positions that end the game.
Say no to imba/cheese, vote taldarim )
loool
tal darim is by far the best map. look at them winrates. and it also produces sick games.
On March 14 2012 22:33 -shArk- wrote: Nice to see Metropolis and Daybreak in the ladder pool Does anybody know when the next season will start? cant find anything about it.
On March 14 2012 23:14 Ucs wrote: Just as reference Huk voted Taldarim on the KR ladder(he specifies in comments). Shattered is equal with metalopolis in votes in KR voting. IMO taldarim should be the one to go. Imba spawn positions(if T spawns on same side as expo), no ramp to stop cheese, rocks @ third, bad map overall.
On March 14 2012 10:56 Kharnage wrote: Since I'm Protoss I'm voting Tal'Darim. No main ramp == no map
Haha, totally agree with that, would be nice to have an additional veto point to spend and not have it wasted in Tal'Darim (map has been consistentley down-voted for me pretty much ever since it was introduced). On that topic I think increasing the map pool is an interesting idea, but an additional veto point (increasing it to 3) would be nice too incase you feel too overwhelmed.
While I don't like Shattered too much, I think this map (maybe with some further modifications) should stay forever. As a constant through all the map pool changes. As the standard map everyone knows.
Well I voted for Shattered Temple to be removed but I gotta say, Metalopolis needs to be retired as well.
It was great that they removed close positions and it had its comeback tour, but its time it was put out to pasture with classic maps of old and made way for newer maps that are more relevant to the current game.
On March 14 2012 22:33 -shArk- wrote: Nice to see Metropolis and Daybreak in the ladder pool Does anybody know when the next season will start? cant find anything about it.
Every season spans about two months.
I know but i want a exact date. When did season 6 started?
On March 15 2012 00:45 Zorkmid wrote: Is metropolis not the exact same map as Slag pits?
No! Check out GSL_Metropolis, awesome macro map. Slag pit was just crap.
Hm. Metalopolis close by air < Shattered temple <<< Metalopolis cross. Thus shattered temple has to go imo. And I hope they won't do any major changements to daybreak.
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
On March 15 2012 01:43 -y0shi- wrote: Why do people hate shattered so much? As a Toss I actually kinda like it, not great but Id take it over taldarim/meta
The rush distance on shattered temple close by air spawn is completely ridiculous. Terran can set up tanks and reinforce more quickly than other maps. Due to this short rush distance, it's really the only map where thor-rush is a viable and is a strong tactic. There are no counterattack pathways either. It's heavily Terran favored by statistics: something like 60-65% Terran winrate.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
On March 15 2012 01:43 -y0shi- wrote: Why do people hate shattered so much? As a Toss I actually kinda like it, not great but Id take it over taldarim/meta
On March 15 2012 01:43 -y0shi- wrote: Why do people hate shattered so much? As a Toss I actually kinda like it, not great but Id take it over taldarim/meta
Rocks baby.
And ZvP is silly, and I play Protoss. If I ever get a zerg on that map, I prepare for the amazing all-in or some sort of 2 base non-sense. I feel bad all zergs to try to make that map work.
On March 15 2012 01:43 -y0shi- wrote: Why do people hate shattered so much? As a Toss I actually kinda like it, not great but Id take it over taldarim/meta
It's just a dumb map. Zerg can't take a quick third, it has a short rush distance which makes terran/protoss all ins powerful and the middle of the map is just a wide open space which makes builds like infestor/ling really powerful.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
That too. I know the map has a lot of attack paths which is normally really good for zerg, but I feel cloud kingdom has too tight of bases, making it really easy for T/P to do a good sim city at their expos making zerg counter attacks almost useless. Also the fact that you're expanding towards your opponent, and again all the chokes making the Z army less efficient. But everyone's convinced it's a balanced map so who knows maybe I'm playing it wrong. But so far I have not had any good games on it and so I thumbed it down.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
That too. I know the map has a lot of attack paths which is normally really good for zerg, but I feel cloud kingdom has too tight of bases, making it really easy for T/P to do a good sim city at their expos making zerg counter attacks almost useless. Also the fact that you're expanding towards your opponent, and again all the chokes making the Z army less efficient. But everyone's convinced it's a balanced map so who knows maybe I'm playing it wrong. But so far I have not had any good games on it and so I thumbed it down.
That's what vetoes are for. Personally I find Meta unplayable versus Zerg as Terran or Protoss, so I veto it.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
And Korhal Compound is incredibly fair right? Large open center, no chokes, insanely long ground distance between second and third (with a nice back corridor for mutas and air), multiple attack routes for counter attacks.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
I think Cload Kingdom needs more time. As a protoss, love it, but zergs have gotten better at finding my proxy pylons and scouting. Also, a few of the standard all ins for zerg just do not work on that map because of the distantace between the two bases. This makes me fear them way less. It also has a lot of space that people would not normally place things to get vision, like the top and bottom of the map. This makes drops, WP and proxy pylons super effective until the zergs get some pretty standard overlord placement to sniff that stuff out.
Zerg has a rough time on new maps of that size. Once we see more games on the GSL and so on, it will get better.
On March 15 2012 02:52 Jampackedeon wrote: Korhal is a nightmare map for zerg, I cannot hold a fucking third to save my life! Asta la vista baby!
It is super weird for protoss too. I have not faced a good Muta user on that map, but I don't know how I would take a third against them. It is so far away from the main. But I think the distance is the only issue and the map would be solid if they moved the third around.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
I think Cload Kingdom needs more time. As a protoss, love it, but zergs have gotten better at finding my proxy pylons and scouting. Also, a few of the standard all ins for zerg just do not work on that map because of the distantace between the two bases. This makes me fear them way less. It also has a lot of space that people would not normally place things to get vision, like the top and bottom of the map. This makes drops, WP and proxy pylons super effective until the zergs get some pretty standard overlord placement to sniff that stuff out.
Zerg has a rough time on new maps of that size. Once we see more games on the GSL and so on, it will get better.
I'm not even scared about protoss allins or terran drops or anything on that map. Those things can happen on any map. It's the toss/terran who decide to play the "turtle and get maxed 200/200 3/3/3 upgraded mech/viking/raven or voidray/colossus/mothership" plan, since the location of the bases makes it almost impossible to harass.
On March 15 2012 01:49 JethroSC wrote: What is WRONG with people? D: c:
Metalopolis shouldn't go, these two should:
Shattered Temple (for the ridicolous ZvP, where Zerg can't take a normal third without having to make a shit ton of lings, and even then, takes a while to get those damn rocks down!)
Cloud Kingdom. My god is that a Protoss/Terran-favoring map. Your base with it's incredibly tiny choke, your natural with it's incredibly tiny chokeS, making Tank/Colossi-play versus Zerg completely unfair. I've vetoed them both.
I agree with this, but sadly too many people think that just because cloud kingdom is a "community map" that it's automatically good. People really need to realize that it's not a good map.
I think it's not the chokes that actually make the map tough for zerg - i think it's the fact that the bases for protoss/terran are so close together that zerg doesn't have many options to go for mobile fast harassment armies (muta/ling, roach drops, etc). Especially because the third base defends one of the approach angles for the main.
I think Cload Kingdom needs more time. As a protoss, love it, but zergs have gotten better at finding my proxy pylons and scouting. Also, a few of the standard all ins for zerg just do not work on that map because of the distantace between the two bases. This makes me fear them way less. It also has a lot of space that people would not normally place things to get vision, like the top and bottom of the map. This makes drops, WP and proxy pylons super effective until the zergs get some pretty standard overlord placement to sniff that stuff out.
Zerg has a rough time on new maps of that size. Once we see more games on the GSL and so on, it will get better.
I'm not even scared about protoss allins or terran drops or anything on that map. Those things can happen on any map. It's the toss/terran who decide to play the "turtle and get maxed 200/200 3/3/3 upgraded mech/viking/raven or voidray/colossus/mothership" plan, since the location of the bases makes it almost impossible to harass.
I do agree. It is a map that requires zerg to expand pretty agressively and deny that third base for as long as possible. That can be hard to do against a good player, all-ins or not. I still think the map a lot better than most and there is a way zerg can play on it, though it might not be the standard stuff we are used to.
I'm very curious as to why to how antiga shipyard isn't winning this poll. That map is so boring and I feel like I'm definitely not the only to have said that D: I though everyone hated antiga D:
On March 15 2012 03:12 Poehalcho wrote: I'm very curious as to why to how antiga shipyard isn't winning this poll. That map is so boring and I feel like I'm definitely not the only to have said that D: I though everyone hated antiga D:
It's on my veto list...but there are worse evils out there...like shattered temple and entombed valley.
On March 15 2012 03:12 Poehalcho wrote: I'm very curious as to why to how antiga shipyard isn't winning this poll. That map is so boring and I feel like I'm definitely not the only to have said that D: I though everyone hated antiga D:
It's on my veto list...but there are worse evils out there...like shattered temple and entombed valley.
As a terran I very much like playing on entombed. good placement for tanks :D. I can imagine it being a little imba though.
On the other hand I'm always very confused by the hate towards Shattered. I've never had a bad game playing on shattered, every single one has been fun. In fact pretty much all of the 'spectacular' games I've played have been on shattered. It's a fun map for me.
They should keep the current mappool size and remove the stupid maps like meta, shattered and tal darim, which are all horrible maps in race balance.
Also korhal compound should ahve never made it in, that map sees the most baserace situations ever, horrible watchtower placement which do nothing, and horrible macro game potential for protoss against zerg because of the low ground third base.
I think they should make the vote at least two votes, at least two of the old maps have to go
On March 15 2012 03:12 Poehalcho wrote: I'm very curious as to why to how antiga shipyard isn't winning this poll. That map is so boring and I feel like I'm definitely not the only to have said that D: I though everyone hated antiga D:
I voted to get rid of Antiga. It's such a terrible map in all regards. Entombed is bad, but there's still a lot to explore with it yet and Shattered / Meta are generally fun maps to play on, despite the inherent imbalances.
yes! daybreak was the best choice imo. i haven't played on metropolis yet, but the first gsl matches looked pretty decent. don't know anything about ohana yet (except it's hawaiian for family and they make delicious drinks!))
Wow, I never thought I'd see the day when Blizz really takes community input seriously - this is how it should've looked like from the beginning, but I'm not gonna keep complaining now.
I'm happy that Blizz finally isn't too proud anymore to replace bad maps designed by themselves with good maps designed by the community
Now its time to fuck off all maps that have rocks. Yes, obviously Shattered (bye bye already if they will base that upon pool), but there is still this bullshit with entombed and taldarim rocks.
On March 14 2012 10:42 Cereb wrote: I wish I could get more people to vote for ffffuuu....... Entomed Valley. It's probably top 3 worst map in the last year from a Zerg perspective! It's litterally bad in every single match up.
Vs toss if you let them come into the natural or third area you might as well GG out. The ridiculously small corriodors can litterally block of your entire army with just 2 force fields! Also there is noooo way to attack the protoss third. I have had massive lead where I could usually end the game, but because they can wall everything of with a bare minimum of buildings AND it's all high ground - it's litterally impenetrable.
Vs Zerg you cannot do any kind of early expand play. The ramp is miles away from the natural making both spines and queens at the ramp incredibly bad and both are a necessity if you want to expand. So you are basically forced into bane wars, which is silly since the map is already huge. It's litterally the same as a map in pvp where you are more or less forced to 4 gate.
Vs Terran it's semi okay - As long as it's not close position! If it's close then you cannot take your natural third forcing you to expand soo far away which makes defending against drops incredibly hard and even if you get the drop you are going to have a massive tank marine force right out side your base. It's kinda okay in the other positions but once again - you cannot attack the third at all which is kinda bad design.
***The Remove Entomed Valley March 2012 Campaign***
You should see the games where zergs make a wall of spinecrawlers and slow push across the map with brood lord infestor while you think to yourself "WTF does Protoss do to that?" I agree close positions suck, but all in all it's actually a pretty decent map.
It isn't so much about balance it's more just that the games plays out stupidly, and slow pushing spines across the map doesn't exactly add it to my list of greatest maps ever :p
Well carriers come to mind. If only they didn't take forever to build :/
Nah, then the zerg, who keeps scouting, just sacrifices some supply and makes corrupters.
On March 15 2012 03:12 Poehalcho wrote: I'm very curious as to why to how antiga shipyard isn't winning this poll. That map is so boring and I feel like I'm definitely not the only to have said that D: I though everyone hated antiga D:
That's what i voted for. You can't take a 4th easily and forces some weird play styles. Like rushing to brood lords zvt to take the center gold as a 4th.
I'm hoping that years and years from now when the SC2 scene is old and a dozen generations of maps have come and gone like waves of GSL Code A players, we'll still play Metalopolis in all major tournaments. It'll always be the quintessential StarCraft 2 map in my heart.
Even though I'm fed up of Shattered at the moment (seriously, it's coming up ALL the time for me), I voted Entombed Valley. I don't know what it is about that map, but I just don't like it. Looking at it on paper, I should, but I just don't.
I like the newest maps though, so it's good to see that it's looking like they will stick around.
And I'm very excited about the Daybreak coming to the ladder. The other two look like they could be decent too.
Holy shit a map with color? Congratulations Ohana, congratulations. I'm dead serious, it's been a long time since I've seen a SC2 map that didn't look like a giant gray blob.
On March 15 2012 06:23 rtgICEMAN wrote: I really don't like Korhal and Metalopolis. Shattered Temple and Taldarim are fine, the last one being a great macro oriented map .
Only one option to veto...I suppose it'll have to be Shattered for me. Nevertheless, the pool's looking bright. Metropolis and Daybreak are cool maps, and I can't comment on Ohana but it doesn't look too bad.
I voted for Metalopolis, but I really think they should give people more than one vote option. Many of these maps need to go. But I like the maps they ll add to the pool! Blizzard is doing the right things( atleast this time ).
They should bugfix Metropolis before they release it.
It has HUGE framedrops for me and runs at 20-30 fps. Different resolutions and settings won't change this fact. I always choose to avoid this single map, havent got any trouble with other maps :/
All the old maps need to go. These maps are over a year old. I really like how Blizzard are using community/GSL made maps and terrible ones they make themselves.
I'd like both Shattered and Tal Darim to be removed but I'll be okay with just taking out Shattered. I just don't like not being able to take a third early, haha.
I don't like the new Ohana It's not at all like the map I played a couple of match on dring the TLMC and voted for. I feel like it has lost of a lot of things that I particuliarly liked about the map
I say metalopolis. Metalopolis and shattered temple are almost identical, except ST has 4 extra (or is it 2?) Blue bases and 2 golds with rocks, and met has 2 golds. ST has a large center, and can favour any race depending on the angle and position, and the unit composition. Therefore I find ST to be very balanced, when met has those small paths, which can most likely favour protoss because they can FF. For a concave. Drops are very good for terran but is very rarely used and held off effectively most of the time. Zerg has 3 easy defend expos, along with 3 more open bases. So metalopolis must go. I don't like even as a toss myself. I don't know why
Metalopolis is still one of the best maps there is in the map pool so I dont see how people are saying it's trash. It's a playable not broken map like shattered temple is. Plus one of my vetoes is definetly going towards Ohana that map is just... well terrible to put it lightly lol.
Natural is safe. I'm ok with nat... But 3rd is your near. You can even take 3rd at 8 min. There is no air for drops or no runs. TvZ: Hellion expand>Zerg forces your hellions to runaway>I have no drop area>gogo infestor zergling>take 3rd>kill me TvP: 1 gate expand>CreatorPrime PvT>take 3rd>kill me TvT: Hmm. Easy to take 3rd. OK. lets mech against mech....
I don't like taldarim and Cloud too but. I mean. Cmon! Entombed is sucks...
As long as they make Antiga, Temple, etc. cross position only, I would be happy with all of them. I get that making all maps cross position is not what BNET wants, but some of these maps have ridiculous close positions. Just so stupid.
On March 14 2012 10:24 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: everything is wron--- err right o.O?
damn this is awesome, good maps coming in, shit maps going out, pool getting larger :D
voted Shattered. Yea, metal is ancient, but it's still better.
This. I really wish Korhal Compound and Entombed Valley would go instead, but Shattered disappearing is fine too. Map is not so easy ZvP when protoss can FFE and you can't really take a fast third in response.
On March 14 2012 10:24 FrostedMiniWheats wrote: everything is wron--- err right o.O?
damn this is awesome, good maps coming in, shit maps going out, pool getting larger :D
voted Shattered. Yea, metal is ancient, but it's still better.
This. I really wish Korhal Compound and Entombed Valley would go instead, but Shattered disappearing is fine too. Map is not so easy ZvP when protoss can FFE and you can't really take a fast third in response.
Spend 30 minutes doing an FFE as protoss vs the very easy AI. Try it first on cloud kingdom or shakuras. Then try it on shattered. See the problems? Use them to your advantage.
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
On March 15 2012 13:31 EsMuyVien wrote: As long as they make Antiga, Temple, etc. cross position only, I would be happy with all of them. I get that making all maps cross position is not what BNET wants, but some of these maps have ridiculous close positions. Just so stupid.
why? You gotta play Terran to know how hard it is to walk all the way across the map to put some pressures on Z/P. There is a reason why GSL still keep close spawn isn't it?
yeah right lets get rid off the last maps that are balanced for terran and replace them with the likes of daybreak. like terran isn't hard enough already.
I seem to remember everyone wanting metalopolis back into the map pool just a season or two ago. Now everybody wants it gone again? Still seems like a good map to me.
On March 15 2012 14:29 Chvol wrote: I seem to remember everyone wanting metalopolis back into the map pool just a season or two ago. Now everybody wants it gone again? Still seems like a good map to me.
it is a good map its just old
i wouldn't want to see it go though. Shattered temple, shakuras plateau and entombed valley are all much better candidates.... although honestly I think entombed isnt as bad as people say, its a pretty nice macro map it's just really bad for 2base timing attacks.
On March 15 2012 14:11 IronManSC wrote: I'm seeing a lot of people say Ohana is bad. Can I ask you folks why you think so? Please send me a PM or something.
Although I don't believe Ohana is a bad map, I can see why others would think so. As a Protoss player who enjoys macro games and detests close positions or short rush distances, I'm actually looking forward to playing this map. However, while I love playing P v Z (my worst matchup...but really fun!), this map does seem more favorable for Zerg than most of the current ladder maps. Here are some pro-zerg features I see:
-Long rush distance with central towers- allow a Zerg to drone heavily and get units out just in time once a push is scouted; makes T v Z timing pushes much harder to execute -Expansions in an arc (like Shakuras, but without the more central expansions below the main) - makes defending multiple bases in P/T v Z harder; easy third to take against FE from P/T -Open center plus multiple side attack paths- makes flanking with Lings/Roaches easier
I'm only Platinum, but I watch a fair number of pro games and this is just my two cents on this map.
Idk if its just my computer being shit, i get like 20+ frames when maxed as Z, for some reason when i spam click dead air space, my computer drops to like 5 fps, especially on metropolis. Does anyone know if this is a cpu thing or more vidya card, figured i would see if anyone has these problems, since we are discussing maps.
My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
On March 15 2012 16:32 DarkMatterUK wrote: My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
I play protoss and I'm personally fine with having one rampless map which favors 4-gate in PvP in the map pool. I don't mind a bit of short, intense micro practice once every 20 games or so.
I took Tal'Darim. I am playing Terran and that map is so hard for me in 2 of the 3 spawning positions against zerg. Though shattered was right behind, so I really don't mind that one going.
On March 15 2012 16:32 DarkMatterUK wrote: My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
How is early pools in ZvP becoming more effective. I say they're becoming less effective as a zerg. The map is horrible zerg has like no options on it. A risky 3 hatch will mostly die to 6 gate or even a later gateway timing. Going twobase loses to pheonix openings and early pools are reliant on the protoss scouting you last. I want the map removed. It also feels like toss can just expand three bases really quickly, its no ramp but theres a choke atthe third you only really need to hold two positions.
So, Ohama's going to be super fun against tank/medivac, huh?.
(grey diamonds are where you first seige, blue diamonds are where you seige crawl to, purple squares are where you can spot from with a medivac without being seen).
So if you take 4b, it's really far away from everything and tanks can siege up in range of your expo from behind the LOS blockers. The terrain there makes them very hard to dislodge, but if you cede any ground, they move up to claim the *other * LOS blockers, which cuts off your ground army from your expo and lets them threaten that cliff into your main... when you position to defend that they just kill your expo and go home.
However, if you take 4a, not only can tanks can shell your gas from the low ground... they can cover the ramp at the same time, and most of the 200 mile obstacle course in between. As it happens, a narrow lip of the high ground extends out near that spot... which on one hand might allow 2-3 stalkers or hydras at a time to trade shots before the siege line is fully established, but on the other hand ends up so deep within tank range afterwards that there's really nothing you can do to stop him from staging elevators from it. Oh, one other thing... if he gets up there, he can start shelling your workers and main building.
That might sound a bit elaborate, but actually, it's no extra trouble for him... he was going to go through there anyway so he could seige up behind the rocks overlooking your third. This doesn't *quite* put him in range of your gas, but it *does* make it really hard for you to get rid of him when he moves 2-3 tanks down and tucks them into the little nook between the bottom of the rocks and some trees. Once he's in there, he has range to the main building at your expo, full coverage of the path from your natural, very little exposed surface area, and high ground support. He can also spot with medivacs from any of several locations above your elevation.
...but why stop there? After clearing out your third, he gains access to the back cliff at your natural. Where he can (you guessed it) siege up on the opposite side from your ramp and start shelling your gas and mineral line. There's even another awesome spot to squeeze into between some trees and hte bottom of the rocks... the only thing changing is that this time that's the spot you defend your other tanks from as opposed to the other way around. I actually have to give the author credit here... he's managed turn everything on its head and make the backdoor rocks to your natural something that threatens not to become an additional enterance. The more I look at them the more I think he intended having them still up to be a liability. Look how far around you have to run to get to the bottom side of that cliff otherwise...
One base left. You know the drill. The only thing I'm going to add is that while you can't hide your medivacs on the way into his main, you DO get to hole up behind the minerals for this part. And while there's plenty of room once you're back there, it turns out anything bigger than a marine can only get back there at one of the ends. Either of which you can seal with a single tank. Cute or what?
(disclaimer: bad day, extreme negativity, probably overblowing it)
This is so awesome. Even though I wouldn't consider all of the maps perfect this might be the beginning of a new wave of community made maps in the ladder.
all the new maps look sick (ohana like a belshir but with better 3rd imo) and love blizz for it, sad ST is gone but it was due time :p would like to see tda/metal gone too but i'll take it man.
however with pvt rates high they won't be doing a good job balancing the game with maps, huh. daybreak and metropolis p favored, aren't they? (just look at the distances, gsl stats back me up on daybreak?) i love the maps though, guess back to random :>
Race Stats (non-mirrors): TvZ: 95-40 (70.4%) [ Games ] ZvP: 59-48 (55.1%) [ Games ] PvT: 66-75 (46.8%) [ Games ]
Why would you use those stats? Do you find it fun to cherrypick stats to support your case? Why aren't you also using stats from The Shattered Temple 1.1 which has 3084 games played on it?
Using the combined stats of The Shattered Temple and v1.1 we see
TvZ is 540-405 (57.1%) ZvP is 401-287 (58.3%) PvT is 367-453 (44.8%)
Considering how long Shattered Temple has been out, the meta-game shifts and balance changes that have occured over the time frame, those stats are pretty pointless anyway. You'll find that the winrates for the map roughly follow the overall shifting winrates for the game as a whole. Your balance argument is stupid.
I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote: I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
Yeah Shattered Temple is absolute shit in ZvP if the Protoss FFEs. We're either forced to go all in, take a 3rd really far away, or make a bunch of lings to kill either the rocks at the gold or to the pocket expansion. I would be fine with Shattered Temple staying in the map pool if they changed the gold to a blue base and removed the rocks or something along those lines. As it is right now it's so fucking bad.
On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote: I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
You want protoss to make the nexus part of the walloff on shattered temple? Look at how far the minerals/nexus is back from the bottom of the ramp. That would be one hell of a big wall off!
Why is roach allin strong? Because the choke is so wide. How else can you abuse the wide choke? 10 pool (etc). You dont have to go allin, you can screw any protoss who tries to FFE on shattered. Instead, you see zergs 10 pooling on cloud and hatch first on shattered, then complain that the maps favour protoss too much.
On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote: I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
Yeah Shattered Temple is absolute shit in ZvP if the Protoss FFEs. We're either forced to go all in, take a 3rd really far away, or make a bunch of lings to kill either the rocks at the gold or to the pocket expansion. I would be fine with Shattered Temple staying in the map pool if they changed the gold to a blue base and removed the rocks or something along those lines. As it is right now it's so fucking bad.
Why are you letting protoss just FFE on shattered? As I keep saying, the minerals are too far from the ramp. At the vert least you should be forcing 2 cannons before nexus.
****SPOILER LOTS OF QQ*****As a Zerg player Ohana looks like a nightmare. Easy 3 base for Terran and no good fourth base for a mutalisking Zerg. Time for ling infestor..... WHICH I HATE BTW!!!!
I think the number of ladder maps is too much currently. I would like blizzard to get rid of all the old maps. Shakuras, shattered, metalopolis. And fix some of the current. Like antiga to be only cross and most of the positions in TDA also suffer from quite a bit of imbalance in some matchups. So with some fixes not one but 3 maps removed we could be seeing a pretty good overall balanced map pool.
On March 15 2012 16:32 DarkMatterUK wrote: My personal opinion and one that i have seen floating around is that Tal'Darim Alter LE is a very limited map especially for protoss players. The reason for this is that firstly there is no ramp that enables effective forcefields to be placed, thus allowing a macro opening vs terran. Its THE map in PvP where you must 4 gate of die. and vs Zerg anything else but a FFE seems hopeless and so early pools in ZvP become increasingly effective.
Therefore Im hoping this will be the map dropped purely because seeing new builds and developing the match ups in their entirety should be a focus of Blizzard and also the community. Discuss.
How is early pools in ZvP becoming more effective. I say they're becoming less effective as a zerg. The map is horrible zerg has like no options on it. A risky 3 hatch will mostly die to 6 gate or even a later gateway timing. Going twobase loses to pheonix openings and early pools are reliant on the protoss scouting you last. I want the map removed. It also feels like toss can just expand three bases really quickly, its no ramp but theres a choke atthe third you only really need to hold two positions.
Remove the rocks and it becomes the best map in the pool. Typical blizzard, putting the rocks on the map when gomtv had them initially removed.
On March 14 2012 10:16 tsuxiit wrote: Honestly Metalopolis, Tal'darim, Shattered Temple and Shakuras need to go. Why is there only one option?
I agree with this guy. in fact, get rid of all the current maps. Actually, as a matter of fact, get rid of all the future maps too, i don't understand why Starcraft needs to be played on a "map"
On March 14 2012 10:16 tsuxiit wrote: Honestly Metalopolis, Tal'darim, Shattered Temple and Shakuras need to go. Why is there only one option?
I agree with this guy. in fact, get rid of all the current maps. Actually, as a matter of fact, get rid of all the future maps too, i don't understand why Starcraft needs to be played on a "map"
Are you trolling? or just being overly sarcastic because I have no idea what you mean.
On March 15 2012 21:30 Belial88 wrote: I would rather they just removed close spawns on antiga and entombed valley, and put in neutral depots, then them adding new maps.
Like how hard is it for them to figure this out?
I don't understand why there is so much variance about which maps to remove. Doesn't everyone realize how broken TDA, ST, and close spawn Entombed and Antiga are?
Shattered is zerg favoured and most zergs dont even realise it :/
Not everyone like to be pigeonholed into doing only one type of build on a map. That's why Zergs hate TDA, and Toss hate TDA - you are forced to do only one build on it, and that just becomes predictable and the opponent can blind counter it. If Zerg goes fast third on TDA, Toss just goes blink all-in and wins due to long transit times or dead econ from killing the rocks with early lings, and if Zerg goes 2 base muta, blink all-in build order wins.
Shattered is only zerg favored in stats because roach/ling all-ins were extremely strong for a while, and on that map, they are good. But saying It's zerg favored just because some all-in is strong on it, is not correct. Toss can nowadays easily scout for zerg all-ins, and you can just as easily throw down a ton of cannons on that map blindly because you know zerg is not going to be getting a fast third anyways, and if you make the nexus part of the wall-off, those same cannons keep you same from mutas too, which is the only other choice zerg has.
so frustrating to hear people say 'ST is zerg favored'. So zerg only has 1 shitty all-in they can do on that map, maybe you should scout for it extra hard and if you can't tell, blindly put the cannons down and end up ahead anyways. not hard to do. people just too greedy sometimes, play every map the same.
Yeah Shattered Temple is absolute shit in ZvP if the Protoss FFEs. We're either forced to go all in, take a 3rd really far away, or make a bunch of lings to kill either the rocks at the gold or to the pocket expansion. I would be fine with Shattered Temple staying in the map pool if they changed the gold to a blue base and removed the rocks or something along those lines. As it is right now it's so fucking bad.
Why are you letting protoss just FFE on shattered? As I keep saying, the minerals are too far from the ramp. At the vert least you should be forcing 2 cannons before nexus.
At the very least the protoss putting down 2 cannons before nexus still puts them really far ahead, and makes them much safer against a push later on if you decide to do one.
When does season 7 begin :O, can't wait to ladder and play Daybreak and Metropolis, never played Ohana looks like a good map but we'll see , voted for Shakuras to be removed, seems like Shattered is winning though, hate that map as well so whatever :D
On March 14 2012 12:57 BronzeKnee wrote: Can't Blizzard just collect statistics from down votes to see which map should go?
This thought occured to me too. This kind of data should be available for them to just grab off of each server. But let us vote too
Also everyone don't forget we need to REALLY show blizz how much we appreciate them letting us participate in polls to decide the map pool!!! Tweet at @Starcraft, @Blizzard, write in the forums, reply in the poll blog post, etc.
If they see no appreciation, we may never have this opportunity again!
Entombed gotta go, the horizontal spawns are just the worst, others should stay. If the maps like shattered and metal stay, it at least encourages variaty in gameplay, not just ffe every single game for example.
On March 18 2012 03:22 Thomassn wrote: How did Ohana make it in? this map is just aweful
Why is is awful? Elaborate please.
Did you play the map? How many games did you play? If you played it, what matchups did you try? Did you try going past 2 bases? Did you try to position around the center or did you take a quick glance and GG?
You need to tell me these things. Calling it "awful" does not cut it.
On March 18 2012 03:49 Zowon wrote: is Ohana really going to be added to the map pool? Such a huge zerg map lol.
An open map does not automatically mean it's a zerg map. You have to also pay attention to the chokes into every base and how those can affect zerg both positively and negatively. It also depends heavily on how aggressive or passive either player is, since no two players are the same.
TvZ is 11-6 ZvP is 9-5
These stats are gathered from the ESV Korean Weekly and the NASL. It's way, WAY too early to be determining what race this map favors mostly. Don't get your hopes up.
On March 18 2012 03:22 Thomassn wrote: How did Ohana make it in? this map is just aweful
Why is is awful? Elaborate please.
Did you play the map? How many games did you play? If you played it, what matchups did you try? Did you try going past 2 bases? Did you try to position around the center or did you take a quick glance and GG?
You need to tell me these things. Calling it "awful" does not cut it.
He's not saying it's awful. He is actually saying that he is full of awe at the map, then put those two together to get the slang word, "aweful".
On March 19 2012 08:55 AhhBoxxah wrote: ohana is a bad zvt map, dont see how you can argue otherwise -_-
TvZ is 12-7 on it now. Stats too low to determine the map's true balance. The only argument/explanation is that it's too early to determine what matchups are good or bad.
On March 19 2012 07:07 Mr Showtime wrote: Shattered may be old and boring, but Entombed Valley is just fucking terrible.
If Blizzard disabled close positions the map would be decent but as it stands now it is just imbalanced in favor of toss.
Agreed.
It's just a bad map. TvZ is too easy on close spots. Huge wide ramp makes double hellion hard to hold, or pushing down that tiny hallway really good. Cross it's decent, though. And protoss just rofls on this map.
Imo removed shattered, metalopolis and entombed...
Anybody know if blizzard is going to modify how many mineral patches there are for the base next to the xel'naga?, really hope they don't as its such a good map feature.
On second thought, I almost only come across retarded all ins (things that typically screw you if you can't get an ovie into their base time etc) on Antiga Shityard, which I otherwise like. Seriously, about 4 in 5 terrans or protosses are doing effing dull 40APM hope you don't blind counter all-ins.
I think the only reason can be that four spawns means that even with a 1 minute 20 second drone scout, you might not get in if you scout their position third (or even second vs terran), so there's a greater chance of their 'build' ebing scouted. Antiga has long rush distances, but not particularly long by air, obviously as it is smaller than Tal'Darim Altar and Entombed Valley. I'm getting pretty sick of it though, I always thought I would enjoy that map, but I've only had about 6 vaguely standard/macro/interesting games there.
On March 18 2012 03:49 Zowon wrote: is Ohana really going to be added to the map pool? Such a huge zerg map lol.
An open map does not automatically mean it's a zerg map. You have to also pay attention to the chokes into every base and how those can affect zerg both positively and negatively. It also depends heavily on how aggressive or passive either player is, since no two players are the same.
TvZ is 11-6 ZvP is 9-5
These stats are gathered from the ESV Korean Weekly and the NASL. It's way, WAY too early to be determining what race this map favors mostly. Don't get your hopes up.
After trying it out in some ZvP's i gotta say i think its a great map. The middle is open for zerg which is nice but protoss/terran can posture at pretty much one choke (with additional sim city) and defend 3 bases from ground. Had a nice flow to it and has features that benefit all races. So stoked to have in in the next season.
About to do some practice on Ohana for the first time. Daybreak is an amazing map, I've already had a bunch of really fun games on it, especially TvZ. Metropolis seems like a biatch to me as a Terran player, it just seems like such a long distance to push and the third is the farthest base from your opponent. I guess the rocks are a nuisance to Zergs and I've only played a single game on it. But just from looking at is, doesnt look Terran friendly, I could be way off though XD.
On March 23 2012 14:10 IronManSC wrote: Just a heads up, Ohana has been re-textured for ladder to improve clarity, so the textures will not distract you or clutter your screen nearly as much. The re-textured version won't be available until season 7 i'm afraid.
On March 23 2012 14:10 IronManSC wrote: Just a heads up, Ohana has been re-textured for ladder to improve clarity, so the textures will not distract you or clutter your screen nearly as much. The re-textured version won't be available until season 7 i'm afraid.
Awesome. Right now it makes me eyes bleed...
Dammit, I was hoping to distract my opponents with bleeding eyes, since it doesn't bother me at all >_<.
It's already been said but if TalDarim is going to stay, it really, really needs to be reworked for PvP. Why don't they just make the entrance into the main 1 FF wide?
On April 05 2012 05:53 Ryndika wrote: I dont see how u can take 3rd in pvz in ohana...? Help please.
I played it quite a bit in tournaments and I think the third is actually quite easy due to the fact that you have the destructible rocks between natural and third. It is quite easy to defend in my opinion. You need to have a good wall in your natural though and should keep a sentry there at the big ramp of the natural. Then, you can position your army just below the ramp where the rocks were. At least that's what worked well for me. I hope they keep the rocks at the natural. I am usually not a fan of two entrances to a natural but without those rocks it is virtually impossible for P to take a third against Z.
My vote - more interested in what blizzard intends to do with the 2v2 maps honestly. 1v1 is the core of the game for blizzard balance, but if there are more changes to 2v2 balance, I believe the masses would grow up around it. Enjoyed the results of the NA poll at least to inform me of the future for my 1v1
EPT
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/4/42/Daybreak.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft/images2/5/51/Metropolis.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/XQynS.jpg)
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/2aOur.jpg)
TT![[image loading]](http://i1190.photobucket.com/albums/z450/lkqano/ohama.jpg)
