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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:03 mEtRoSG wrote: its time for the first protoss nerf in the history of sc2! :D Yeah the first, except for KA, warpgate research time, blink research time and voidrays, voidrays and voidrays. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:15 eighteen8 wrote: nice work. game now seems pretty balanced for the top 1% of players. fuck the 99%. wait...aren't we the..? shit  Games are balanced or not balanced. There is no qualification like "for x players". If you are unable to win and the game is balanced, you need to practice more. If you don't want to do that, but still want to win, you need to play another game that allows you to win at your current skill level. Edit: Grammer | ||
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secretary bird
447 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote: Games are balanced or not balanced. There is no qualification like "for x players". If you are unable to win and the game is balanced, you need to practice more. If you don't want to do that, but still want to win, you need to play another game that allows you to win at your current skill level. Edit: Grammer Balance is different for different skill levels thats just how it is. | ||
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eighteen8
105 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote: Games are balanced or not balanced. There is no qualification like "for x players". If you are unable to win and the game is balanced, you need to practice more. If you don't want to do that, but still want to win, you need to play another game that allows you to win at your current skill level. at first i thought: it makes sense. but: with this statement you say as well that you can only achieve the shown winrates if you are at the skill level of the top players :O you already know that this is neither possible nor can this be intended through game design. | ||
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petro1987
Brazil374 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:18 Plansix wrote: Games are balanced or not balanced. There is no qualification like "for x players". If you are unable to win and the game is balanced, you need to practice more. If you don't want to do that, but still want to win, you need to play another game that allows you to win at your current skill level. Edit: Grammer Or you could play Protoss instead... jk I guess people just jump into conclusions with these graphics. Balance decisions should be made using a more analytical process, not only taking into account raw numbers. My only problem with all this is the double standard here. When these graphics were showing that Terrans were the top, the T is OP bandwagon was on full force. Now, that the graphics show that Protoss are on top, we gotta wait for more data to have any conclusion. | ||
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Big J
Austria16289 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote: Or you could play Protoss instead... jk I guess people just jump into conclusions with these graphics. Balance decisions should be made using a more analytical process, not only taking into account raw numbers. My only problem with all this is the double standard here. When these graphics were showing that Terrans were the top, the T is OP bandwagon was on full force. Now, that the graphics show that Protoss are on top, we gotta wait for more data to have any conclusion. the difference being, that there were 15 (?) months of data for Terran having higher winrates, compared to 1 of Protoss right now. I agree that it's double standards to say that "the game is balanced now" while it was imbalanced last month, but for all we know is, that Protoss has been doing very well one month. | ||
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:46 petro1987 wrote: My only problem with all this is the double standard here. When these graphics were showing that Terrans were the top, the T is OP bandwagon was on full force. Now, that the graphics show that Protoss are on top, we gotta wait for more data to have any conclusion. Unfortunately, you can't argue against the Internet like it's a single person, with a coherent line of thought. Pointing at the Internet and saying "you are hypocritical!" is like pointing at your cat and saying it has fur. Kind of goes without saying, unless your cat is bald or non-existent. | ||
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Ktk
Korea (South)753 Posts
Aligns with my personal experience in watching pro streams, replays, tournaments... Terrans are doing better than they appear? Kind of? | ||
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SolidMoose
United States1240 Posts
On March 03 2012 01:36 Twistacles wrote: Maybe they'll stop nerfing terran now? One can hope. It shows that with a small sample size the results are completely wonky, in KOR, but with 30k replays it makes a lot more sense. PvT just seems off. P's early pressure can be just as good as early T pressure, but their lategame is much better. Kind of frustrating, but there's no simple answer. We can't nerf them without affecting top level or other MUs, and we can't just 'make them harder to play'. How would we do that? Probably buff terran lategame units or undo the archon buffs. Bigger EMP (maybe 1.75 radius) or putting archon range back to 2 would help a lot to fix lategame. | ||
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:45 eighteen8 wrote: at first i thought: it makes sense. but: with this statement you say as well that you can only achieve the shown winrates if you are at the skill level of the top players :O you already know that this is neither possible nor can this be intended through game design. I did not say that. You made the argument that the game is not balanced for you, at your skill level. This means that you somehow feel that the some of the players who beat you are somehow less skilled that you, but are abusing some imbalance to win games. People make this argument all the time, that less talented players beat them and it is the games fault for this. There are parts of the game where one race has an advantage, but it is your job as a player, to be aware of these. If you have a poor win rate against a specific race, that is a bad match up. Not imbalance because you are in a specific league. More importantly, if people with higher skill levels than you can have win rates at 50%, you should be asking "why is the game not balanced for me?" You should be asking, "what can I do, at my skill level, to be more like them?" | ||
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Hakanfrog
Sweden690 Posts
On March 03 2012 03:10 SeaSwift wrote: Yeah. PvP really needs to be fixed. I thought it would settle and become less knife-edge, less BO dependant, but instead it seems to have become more so. At least when everyone 4gated it came down to micro, now it mostly comes down to who picked the right build order. Just change Protoss a bit so that there is a stable build for PvP, that is fun to watch and doesn't straight out die to certain BOs. Don't make that the ONLY build viable, but make it so that it is the standard, and any variation on that is unusual. I don't even mind the lack of macro games. I don't mind the lack of high tech units, or big army battles. What I do mind is how notoriously ridiculous the matchup is, in terms of stability, build orders and guesswork. Well the first solution is to make sure BO wins are not so important. Second of all, if the matchup is to become fun to watch there needs to be a counter to collosi, or atleast something that will stop the collosi massing. The matchup is just so stale in end game. | ||
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IMHope
Korea (South)1241 Posts
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Plansix
United States60190 Posts
On March 03 2012 04:01 SolidMoose wrote: Probably buff terran lategame units or undo the archon buffs. Bigger EMP (maybe 1.75 radius) or putting archon range back to 2 would help a lot to fix lategame. I would not do that or change units that are useful in the match up. I also do not like making more "key" units(the ghost) force the terran to rely on the placement of a few spells or denying storms. It would be better to improve unused units for terran to provide them with a more robust late game. A late game upgrade for tanks that work against shields, buff the raven or make it have less mana. Any to make the match up more interesting in the late game. | ||
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hasuterrans
United States614 Posts
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Archile
United States403 Posts
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SeaSwift
Scotland4486 Posts
On March 03 2012 04:09 Plansix wrote: I would not do that or change units that are useful in the match up. I also do not like making more "key" units(the ghost) force the terran to rely on the placement of a few spells or denying storms. It would be better to improve unused units for terran to provide them with a more robust late game. A late game upgrade for tanks that work against shields, buff the raven or make it have less mana. Any to make the match up more interesting in the late game. Reduce mana for Raven, reduce the mana cost of its spells appropriately. Then increase HSM range by a little bit, and its damage by a little bit. Voila, a viable tech path for lategame TvX. | ||
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1st_Panzer_Div.
United States621 Posts
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Roblin
Sweden948 Posts
besides, toss has been the underdog since... a long time. toss dominance was inevitably going to happen at some point. and yes, this is a zerg talking. | ||
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Recognizable
Netherlands1552 Posts
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shizna
United Kingdom803 Posts
disturbing PvT differential... of course it's possible for T to win, but there's an underlying unit mismatch.. imo zealots, HT, colossus and archon are far too versatile compared to terran units. even immortals are completely broken... for same cost/supply they kill all terran ground units... only banshee can kill immortals cost effectively...  if terran didn't have such brute strength pre-AOE timing attacks, the differential would be massive in P favour. | ||
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