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On March 03 2012 08:17 Hakanfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. I´m speaking of pro play here, on ladder everything is viable. 3gate DT I never see as an all-in you use it to expand, 1 base collosus all in is not viable same goes for 3gate robo. 6gate and 8gate is same thing (It´s like saying 1-1-1 cloaked banshee and 1-1-1 without cloak and raven instead are different all ins, in which case your argument doesn´t hold). 2 base collosi is viable, but I can´t remember the last time I saw it work between two top players.
I don't care about the top players, the game is just not fun for me at a high master/gm level. These all ins are very, very viable and potent, they just aren't used enough in the EU and NA scene, on the KOR ladder about half my games are all ins. Yes they aren't used much against the likes of MMA or MKP, agreed. Neither is a 1-1-1. Also when I watch Cloud's stream he is often bitching about how protoss all ins are too strong, so I am not the only one.
Any DT opening fails so hard if prepared for, I treat it as an all in.
It´s like saying 1-1-1 cloaked banshee and 1-1-1 without cloak and raven instead are different all ins, in which case your argument doesn´t hold
Because they are? You deal different with a cloak strategy then with a raven first. But it doesn't really matter, they both won't win you games anymore since patch.
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On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. Edit: I forgot to mention all the beautifull all ins you face on ladder where they have a warp prism and warp sentry's in your main, block your ramp and kill all your shit. Another fun fact: It's actually impossible to FE on metalopolis on the KOR ladder. Edit2: Shit forgot the 1 base blink stalker all in. Haha. Protoss has so many I sometimes forget some of them! -Because of the all ins and because you need twice as good to be as a Protoss to win in lategame is why I quit playing this season.
I went ahead and asked one of my GM Terran friends (SCSXenocider) what the best TvP opening is, and he said 1 rax FE. To quote, he said that "properly played, 1rax FE can hold every Protoss all-in, assuming you know how to react."
Now onto the builds you listed:
4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity.
5gate sentry- horrible. even more obvious.
3gate robo- good only if the robo is proxied
3gate stargate- good if stargate isn't scouted/terran walls off
3gate DT- good if terran has no game sense
1base colossus- absolutely terrible
6gate- good build
6gate robo- less good than 6gate but decent
8gate- basically a variant on 6gate
2base colossus all-in- good on shakuras and cloud kingdom and pretty much nowhere else
warp prism 4gate (i assume that's what you mean)- scout. if Protoss is on 1base for this long and you don't notice, you're doing something wrong.
1base blink stalker all-in- unreliable as hell
Honestly, any time a Protoss DOESN'T 1gate expand, you should be wary. There are essentially 2 or 3 builds, each with a few variations. You have Nexus first, 1gate Fe, and 2/3 gate expo builds. Everything else is a variation (e.g. 1gate Robo is just a delayed 1gate FE; it's a bad build though IMO.) If I'm sitting on 1 base with 2 gases, then I'm either 3gate expanding or going to all-in you. Prepare accordingly.
I also pretty much guarantee that no Protoss all-in that isn't extremely new has the same sort of winrate that 1-1-1 had prepatch, and probably isn't even better than the winrate 1-1-1 has now (which you grossly underestimate; people 1-1-1 in tournaments constantly, and they win enough for it to be a justified build).
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On March 03 2012 08:33 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. Edit: I forgot to mention all the beautifull all ins you face on ladder where they have a warp prism and warp sentry's in your main, block your ramp and kill all your shit. Another fun fact: It's actually impossible to FE on metalopolis on the KOR ladder. Edit2: Shit forgot the 1 base blink stalker all in. Haha. Protoss has so many I sometimes forget some of them! -Because of the all ins and because you need twice as good to be as a Protoss to win in lategame is why I quit playing this season. I went ahead and asked one of my GM Terran friends (SCSXenocider) what the best TvP opening is, and he said 1 rax FE. To quote, he said that "properly played, 1rax FE can hold every Protoss all-in, assuming you know how to react." Now onto the builds you listed: 4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity. 5gate sentry- horrible. even more obvious. 3gate robo- good only if the robo is proxied 3gate stargate- good if stargate isn't scouted/terran walls off 3gate DT- good if terran has no game sense 1base colossus- absolutely terrible 6gate- good build 6gate robo- less good than 6gate but decent 8gate- basically a variant on 6gate 2base colossus all-in- good on shakuras and cloud kingdom and pretty much nowhere else warp prism 4gate (i assume that's what you mean)- scout. if Protoss is on 1base for this long and you don't notice, you're doing something wrong. 1base blink stalker all-in- unreliable as hell Honestly, any time a Protoss DOESN'T 1gate expand, you should be wary. There are essentially 2 or 3 builds, each with a few variations. You have Nexus first, 1gate Fe, and 2/3 gate expo builds. Everything else is a variation (e.g. 1gate Robo is just a delayed 1gate FE; it's a bad build though IMO.) If I'm sitting on 1 base with 2 gases, then I'm either 3gate expanding or going to all-in you. Prepare accordingly.
Generic nonsense. You make such ultimate statements, like 1 base collossus is bad, well it isn't. Most protoss all-ins are way harder for the terran to hold then for the protoss to execute, and I'm not even talking slightly harder, no.. way harder. 1 base collossus is extremely hard to hold and you have to be extremely lucky. you scout 2-3 gates and a robo, you assume it's 3 gate immortal all-in (or even warp prism all-in, you can't definitively rule anything out for sure), if you don't see the robo bay, you outright just die to this build. and if you follow it up with 1 rax into 5 rax barracks you die aswell, or its at least extremely unlikely you can survive that.
thats just 1 base collossus, I wont talk about any of the other all-ins, I will just let some other terran player waste his time with this.
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The only build I ever use are 1 rax FE or 14 CC. Doesn't change the fact that protoss has absolutely zero to be weary off and therefore can be a bit more greedier. Whilst as terrans there is always this threat early and midgame. But really, lategame protoss is strong enough so most protoss EU/NA have forgotten the art of all ining.
4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity.
It's actually still pretty good, especially because no protoss use it anymore. It hits so fast that it can completely catch you by suprise. Anyway, I got killed by it today.
You also have the 1/2 gate proxy's, which I needed about 15 games of practice off to be able to hold efficiently without being behind.
Generic nonsense. You make such ultimate statements, like 1 base collossus is bad, well it isn't. Most protoss all-ins are way harder for the terran to hold then for the protoss to execute, and I'm not even talking slightly harder, no.. way harder. 1 base collossus is extremely hard to hold and you have to be extremely lucky. you scout 2-3 gates and a robo, you assume it's 3 gate immortal all-in (or even warp prism all-in, you can't definitively rule anything out for sure), if you don't see the robo bay, you outright just die to this build. and if you follow it up with 1 rax into 5 rax barracks you die aswell, or its at least extremely unlikely you can survive that.
Yeah, it's interesting how easy it is to misread some all ins of toss. I have had it happened to me aswell where I think it's a 3 gate immortal all in, make mass marines and then 2 collosus kill me.
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Dat PvZ! Love seeing that bounce around. Best parts about these graphs is watching that matchup fluctuate.
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On March 03 2012 08:41 Recognizable wrote:The only build I ever use are 1 rax FE or 14 CC. Doesn't change the fact that protoss has absolutely zero to be weary off and therefore can be a bit more greedier. Whilst as terrans there is always this threat early and midgame. But really, lategame protoss is strong enough so most protoss EU/NA have forgotten the art of all ining. Show nested quote +4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity. It's actually still pretty good, especially because no protoss use it anymore. It hits so fast that it can completely catch you by suprise. Anyway, I got killed by it today. You also have the 1/2 gate proxy's, which I needed about 15 games of practice off to be able to hold efficiently without being behind. Show nested quote +Generic nonsense. You make such ultimate statements, like 1 base collossus is bad, well it isn't. Most protoss all-ins are way harder for the terran to hold then for the protoss to execute, and I'm not even talking slightly harder, no.. way harder. 1 base collossus is extremely hard to hold and you have to be extremely lucky. you scout 2-3 gates and a robo, you assume it's 3 gate immortal all-in (or even warp prism all-in, you can't definitively rule anything out for sure), if you don't see the robo bay, you outright just die to this build. and if you follow it up with 1 rax into 5 rax barracks you die aswell, or its at least extremely unlikely you can survive that.
Yeah, it's interesting how easy it is to misread some all ins of toss. I have had it happened to me aswell where I think it's a 3 gate immortal all in, make mass marines and then 2 collosus kill me.
The thing is that it's entirely luck based. You see 2-3 gates and a robo and no robo bay (maybe proxied or maybe just at the other side of the protoss base) so what you expect is either a warp prism all in or immortal all-in and in both cases the correct response is => make more marines. But then he comes with 2 collossi and the only reason you lost is because he proxied a building and was hiding his collossi. It's extremely annoying and can make terrans look like complete noobs simply because they reacted to the wrong build. But it's not even a mistake, you scan and see the buildings and you have to assume the all-in is coming according to the tech you scout, missing 1 building is actually deadly in this case. Protoss always acts like it's so easy to read their all-ins. I'll tell you what, I've had protoss players fake a blink stalker all-in and then died to DTs (yeah that's kind of dumb, but you scan his base see some stalkers and a chronoboost on the twilight -> what are you going to assume?). The thing that annoys me about tvp early game is that you have to prepare for absolutely everything as terran, you can scout something and it can be something completely different in the end, if you don't get an engineering bay and a turret you die to dts, but if hes not going dts and actually does what you scouted (blink stalkers) you are short 250 mins almost for absolutely nothing.
I seriously think that the game is broken in that regard and protoss should be abusing this alot more, it just keeps the terran guessing, spending money that he really doesn't want to spend and then lategame is a walk in the park for toss anyway.
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The game is pretty balanced, Zerg is slightly behind in Korea as I expeted.
The maps influence a lot.
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On March 03 2012 09:00 GodZo wrote:
The game is pretty balanced, Zerg is slightly behind in Korea as I expeted.
The maps influence a lot.
Too bad there aren't enough Korean games to make a good judgement off of them. The sample size is too small it would be nice to see a large sample of korean games and how it balances out then.
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Woah, in TvP Terran drops below 50% in Korea for the first time and remains on top everywhere else, and all the Terran whiners come crawling out of the woodwork.
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On March 03 2012 09:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
The thing is that it's entirely luck based. You see 2-3 gates and a robo and no robo bay (maybe proxied or maybe just at the other side of the protoss base) so what you expect is either a warp prism all in or immortal all-in and in both cases the correct response is => make more marines. But then he comes with 2 collossi and the only reason you lost is because he proxied a building and was hiding his collossi. It's extremely annoying and can make terrans look like complete noobs simply because they reacted to the wrong build. But it's not even a mistake, you scan and see the buildings and you have to assume the all-in is coming according to the tech you scout, missing 1 building is actually deadly in this case. Protoss always acts like it's so easy to read their all-ins. I'll tell you what, I've had protoss players fake a blink stalker all-in and then died to DTs (yeah that's kind of dumb, but you scan his base see some stalkers and a chronoboost on the twilight -> what are you going to assume?). The thing that annoys me about tvp early game is that you have to prepare for absolutely everything as terran, you can scout something and it can be something completely different in the end, if you don't get an engineering bay and a turret you die to dts, but if hes not going dts and actually does what you scouted (blink stalkers) you are short 250 mins almost for absolutely nothing.
I seriously think that the game is broken in that regard and protoss should be abusing this alot more, it just keeps the terran guessing, spending money that he really doesn't want to spend and then lategame is a walk in the park for toss anyway.
yeah and you can say 100% the same for if you switch that protoss with terran.
and terran has allins are even easier to execute and with better winrates and alot wider arsenal of allins
At least terran can hold an all-in easily knowing it is coming, it not like that the other way around.
Also terran has way better scouting options earlygame.
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On March 03 2012 08:17 Hakanfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. I´m speaking of pro play here, on ladder everything is viable. 3gate DT I never see as an all-in you use it to expand, 1 base collosus all in is not viable same goes for 3gate robo. 6gate and 8gate is same thing (It´s like saying 1-1-1 cloaked banshee and 1-1-1 without cloak and raven instead are different all ins, in which case your argument doesn´t hold). 2 base collosi is viable, but I can´t remember the last time I saw it work between two top players.
Hero has shown that Toss can have deadly all ins even if they nexus first. You scout nexus first. obvious response is to make a quick in base 3rd. oops, too bad toss 8 gated.
if Terran cc's first toss player basically doesn't need to make units.
so yea, toss has waaaaaay more viable all ins than terran in pvt. hell, how many times have you seen a toss win from just 3 gate pressure? Terran gets 1 shot to kill protoss. It's right after his first 2-4 medivacs are out. if the toss is stupid enough, yea he can drop the main and trash him, but if toss makes it past that point the game's basically over.
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On March 03 2012 09:25 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 09:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
The thing is that it's entirely luck based. You see 2-3 gates and a robo and no robo bay (maybe proxied or maybe just at the other side of the protoss base) so what you expect is either a warp prism all in or immortal all-in and in both cases the correct response is => make more marines. But then he comes with 2 collossi and the only reason you lost is because he proxied a building and was hiding his collossi. It's extremely annoying and can make terrans look like complete noobs simply because they reacted to the wrong build. But it's not even a mistake, you scan and see the buildings and you have to assume the all-in is coming according to the tech you scout, missing 1 building is actually deadly in this case. Protoss always acts like it's so easy to read their all-ins. I'll tell you what, I've had protoss players fake a blink stalker all-in and then died to DTs (yeah that's kind of dumb, but you scan his base see some stalkers and a chronoboost on the twilight -> what are you going to assume?). The thing that annoys me about tvp early game is that you have to prepare for absolutely everything as terran, you can scout something and it can be something completely different in the end, if you don't get an engineering bay and a turret you die to dts, but if hes not going dts and actually does what you scouted (blink stalkers) you are short 250 mins almost for absolutely nothing.
I seriously think that the game is broken in that regard and protoss should be abusing this alot more, it just keeps the terran guessing, spending money that he really doesn't want to spend and then lategame is a walk in the park for toss anyway. yeah and you can say 100% the same for if you switch that protoss with terran. and terran has allins are even easier to execute and with better winrates and alot wider arsenal of allins At least terran can hold an all-in easily knowing it is coming, it not like that the other way around. Also terran has way better scouting options earlygame.
Would you care to list the many many Terran all-ins, and why you could confuse them with anything else? :p
Aside, from any balance considerations, one must agree that Protoss has the widest and deadliest (in their confusing patterns) range of all-ins. Some are pretty damn random, like 6 gate, 8 gate or 3 gate Immortal (I saw a delayed version somewhere that hits at a very awkward timing).
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Guys remember, the patch ca´me out in the 27th of february. Because of this i think we will see TvZ winrate change alot.
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On March 03 2012 09:09 ePLocust wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 09:00 GodZo wrote:
The game is pretty balanced, Zerg is slightly behind in Korea as I expeted.
The maps influence a lot. Too bad there aren't enough Korean games to make a good judgement off of them. The sample size is too small it would be nice to see a large sample of korean games and how it balances out then.
To be honest a sample size of 1100 is large enough to make a lot of statistically valid conclusions, especially when the hypothesis is as extreme as an 8% variance in ZvP. Resorting to the "sample size of 1000 too small" argument is very weak at this point. Would a fair coin ever result in 8% deviance over 1000 flips? No. Of course a complex game like starcraft is completely different than the statistical flip of a coin, but saying a sample size of 1000 is too small is simply incorrect. I've heard of new drug trials conducted by the FDA on humans with a sample size of less than 200, which seems incredibly small considering how strict the regulations are on the production and sale of artificial drugs/supplements/medicines.
I would be really interested to see more analysis with regards to maps, if that's at all possible.
Note: I am not making any comments about units, races, or patches. I am saying that 8% over 1000 games is statistically significant this month, just as last month it was 6% the other way (zerg favored). I wonder if there's a new style/build that's becoming prevalent amongst Korean Protosses that's causing this 14% swing over one month.
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On March 03 2012 08:37 ChaosTerran wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:33 Shiori wrote:On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. Edit: I forgot to mention all the beautifull all ins you face on ladder where they have a warp prism and warp sentry's in your main, block your ramp and kill all your shit. Another fun fact: It's actually impossible to FE on metalopolis on the KOR ladder. Edit2: Shit forgot the 1 base blink stalker all in. Haha. Protoss has so many I sometimes forget some of them! -Because of the all ins and because you need twice as good to be as a Protoss to win in lategame is why I quit playing this season. I went ahead and asked one of my GM Terran friends (SCSXenocider) what the best TvP opening is, and he said 1 rax FE. To quote, he said that "properly played, 1rax FE can hold every Protoss all-in, assuming you know how to react." Now onto the builds you listed: 4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity. 5gate sentry- horrible. even more obvious. 3gate robo- good only if the robo is proxied 3gate stargate- good if stargate isn't scouted/terran walls off 3gate DT- good if terran has no game sense 1base colossus- absolutely terrible 6gate- good build 6gate robo- less good than 6gate but decent 8gate- basically a variant on 6gate 2base colossus all-in- good on shakuras and cloud kingdom and pretty much nowhere else warp prism 4gate (i assume that's what you mean)- scout. if Protoss is on 1base for this long and you don't notice, you're doing something wrong. 1base blink stalker all-in- unreliable as hell Honestly, any time a Protoss DOESN'T 1gate expand, you should be wary. There are essentially 2 or 3 builds, each with a few variations. You have Nexus first, 1gate Fe, and 2/3 gate expo builds. Everything else is a variation (e.g. 1gate Robo is just a delayed 1gate FE; it's a bad build though IMO.) If I'm sitting on 1 base with 2 gases, then I'm either 3gate expanding or going to all-in you. Prepare accordingly. Generic nonsense. You make such ultimate statements, like 1 base collossus is bad, well it isn't. Most protoss all-ins are way harder for the terran to hold then for the protoss to execute, and I'm not even talking slightly harder, no.. way harder. 1 base collossus is extremely hard to hold and you have to be extremely lucky. you scout 2-3 gates and a robo, you assume it's 3 gate immortal all-in (or even warp prism all-in, you can't definitively rule anything out for sure), if you don't see the robo bay, you outright just die to this build. and if you follow it up with 1 rax into 5 rax barracks you die aswell, or its at least extremely unlikely you can survive that. thats just 1 base collossus, I wont talk about any of the other all-ins, I will just let some other terran player waste his time with this.
You're unlucky in that QQ isn't very effective against me.
If you're losing regularly to 1 base Colossus (2base I can understand) you are doing something wrong.
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On March 02 2012 18:02 Molybdenum wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 17:58 Megaman_X wrote:On March 02 2012 17:55 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
I hope that people on ladder will stop whining now taht zerg is up,difference in ZvP is only 1% and as a whole it looks faitly balanced. or difference is ~18% in korea And just the month before it was about 14% different in favor of zerg. The metagame is shifting like crazy, and yet Blizzard is putting out balance patches when things aren't clearly in favor of one race or another.
Cause Terran winning almost everything last year shows balance. These patchs are extreamly needed hence the shift in power where at one time Terran always won an now they're down to where every one else is
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On March 03 2012 09:25 freetgy wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 09:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
The thing is that it's entirely luck based. You see 2-3 gates and a robo and no robo bay (maybe proxied or maybe just at the other side of the protoss base) so what you expect is either a warp prism all in or immortal all-in and in both cases the correct response is => make more marines. But then he comes with 2 collossi and the only reason you lost is because he proxied a building and was hiding his collossi. It's extremely annoying and can make terrans look like complete noobs simply because they reacted to the wrong build. But it's not even a mistake, you scan and see the buildings and you have to assume the all-in is coming according to the tech you scout, missing 1 building is actually deadly in this case. Protoss always acts like it's so easy to read their all-ins. I'll tell you what, I've had protoss players fake a blink stalker all-in and then died to DTs (yeah that's kind of dumb, but you scan his base see some stalkers and a chronoboost on the twilight -> what are you going to assume?). The thing that annoys me about tvp early game is that you have to prepare for absolutely everything as terran, you can scout something and it can be something completely different in the end, if you don't get an engineering bay and a turret you die to dts, but if hes not going dts and actually does what you scouted (blink stalkers) you are short 250 mins almost for absolutely nothing.
I seriously think that the game is broken in that regard and protoss should be abusing this alot more, it just keeps the terran guessing, spending money that he really doesn't want to spend and then lategame is a walk in the park for toss anyway. yeah and you can say 100% the same for if you switch that protoss with terran. and terran has allins are even easier to execute and with better winrates and alot wider arsenal of allins At least terran can hold an all-in easily knowing it is coming, it not like that the other way around. Also terran has way better scouting options earlygame.
Oh really. Name the all-ins terran has, 1-1-1 and............. big void. there is nothing else. nothing viable that can potentially kill a protoss player, terran either has to play completely standard or do some 1-1-1 all-in and they always hit at around 10 mins, by then a protoss players has already scouted your base for minutes.
This mysterious wide arsenal of all ins terran appearently has that are really easy to execute and have an extremely high win rate must be something only you know, because as a terran player I have no idea what you are talking about. Standard protoss argument: "terran has as many all ins as protoss" - "name them!"....... no response.
And protoss can't hold all-ins if they know they are coming? What am I reading here? What all-ins can you not hold as protoss even if you know they are coming, I am really intrigued to hear about these mysterious terran all-ins that appearently only protoss players know.
On March 03 2012 10:42 Shiori wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:37 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 03 2012 08:33 Shiori wrote:On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. Edit: I forgot to mention all the beautifull all ins you face on ladder where they have a warp prism and warp sentry's in your main, block your ramp and kill all your shit. Another fun fact: It's actually impossible to FE on metalopolis on the KOR ladder. Edit2: Shit forgot the 1 base blink stalker all in. Haha. Protoss has so many I sometimes forget some of them! -Because of the all ins and because you need twice as good to be as a Protoss to win in lategame is why I quit playing this season. I went ahead and asked one of my GM Terran friends (SCSXenocider) what the best TvP opening is, and he said 1 rax FE. To quote, he said that "properly played, 1rax FE can hold every Protoss all-in, assuming you know how to react." Now onto the builds you listed: 4gate - bad. super obvious. it's not super potent. not even gonna entertain that stupidity. 5gate sentry- horrible. even more obvious. 3gate robo- good only if the robo is proxied 3gate stargate- good if stargate isn't scouted/terran walls off 3gate DT- good if terran has no game sense 1base colossus- absolutely terrible 6gate- good build 6gate robo- less good than 6gate but decent 8gate- basically a variant on 6gate 2base colossus all-in- good on shakuras and cloud kingdom and pretty much nowhere else warp prism 4gate (i assume that's what you mean)- scout. if Protoss is on 1base for this long and you don't notice, you're doing something wrong. 1base blink stalker all-in- unreliable as hell Honestly, any time a Protoss DOESN'T 1gate expand, you should be wary. There are essentially 2 or 3 builds, each with a few variations. You have Nexus first, 1gate Fe, and 2/3 gate expo builds. Everything else is a variation (e.g. 1gate Robo is just a delayed 1gate FE; it's a bad build though IMO.) If I'm sitting on 1 base with 2 gases, then I'm either 3gate expanding or going to all-in you. Prepare accordingly. Generic nonsense. You make such ultimate statements, like 1 base collossus is bad, well it isn't. Most protoss all-ins are way harder for the terran to hold then for the protoss to execute, and I'm not even talking slightly harder, no.. way harder. 1 base collossus is extremely hard to hold and you have to be extremely lucky. you scout 2-3 gates and a robo, you assume it's 3 gate immortal all-in (or even warp prism all-in, you can't definitively rule anything out for sure), if you don't see the robo bay, you outright just die to this build. and if you follow it up with 1 rax into 5 rax barracks you die aswell, or its at least extremely unlikely you can survive that. thats just 1 base collossus, I wont talk about any of the other all-ins, I will just let some other terran player waste his time with this. You're unlucky in that QQ isn't very effective against me. If you're losing regularly to 1 base Colossus (2base I can understand) you are doing something wrong.
This isn't an argument. That's just your way of accepting that you lost the argument. "you lose to that so you newb" doesn't even make any sense. It's not even the all-in itself that you lose to, it's more so the fact that there are so many and all of them require a different reaction and there is no reliable way for terran to scout exactly what's coming, a scan is completely 100% random, you might see the protoss tech, but if he builds it somewhere else in his base and you happen to scan the wrong side then it's lights out. It's not as easy for terran as to simply hit F and spam click around.
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On March 03 2012 10:57 Catatonic wrote:Show nested quote +On March 02 2012 18:02 Molybdenum wrote:On March 02 2012 17:58 Megaman_X wrote:On March 02 2012 17:55 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
I hope that people on ladder will stop whining now taht zerg is up,difference in ZvP is only 1% and as a whole it looks faitly balanced. or difference is ~18% in korea And just the month before it was about 14% different in favor of zerg. The metagame is shifting like crazy, and yet Blizzard is putting out balance patches when things aren't clearly in favor of one race or another. Cause Terran winning almost everything last year shows balance. These patchs are extreamly needed hence the shift in power where at one time Terran always won an now they're down to where every one else is
terran winning everything? Last time I checked a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in well over a year...
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On March 03 2012 09:25 SeaSwift wrote:
Woah, in TvP Terran drops below 50% in Korea for the first time and remains on top everywhere else, and all the Terran whiners come crawling out of the woodwork.
I don't know what you're looking at. International and Korean graphs both have at least 2 or more months where T has fallen below 50% in TvP.
November, January, February for TvP have fallen below 50% for T to correct you (for the Korean graph).
On March 03 2012 11:01 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 10:57 Catatonic wrote:On March 02 2012 18:02 Molybdenum wrote:On March 02 2012 17:58 Megaman_X wrote:On March 02 2012 17:55 HaiFiSCH26 wrote:
I hope that people on ladder will stop whining now taht zerg is up,difference in ZvP is only 1% and as a whole it looks faitly balanced. or difference is ~18% in korea And just the month before it was about 14% different in favor of zerg. The metagame is shifting like crazy, and yet Blizzard is putting out balance patches when things aren't clearly in favor of one race or another. Cause Terran winning almost everything last year shows balance. These patchs are extreamly needed hence the shift in power where at one time Terran always won an now they're down to where every one else is terran winning everything? Last time I checked a foreign Terran hasn't won a major live event in well over a year...
Have you ever heard of Polt?
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EPT
