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On March 03 2012 19:12 shizna wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 06:10 ACrow wrote:On March 03 2012 04:21 shizna wrote:
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imo zealots, HT, colossus and archon are far too versatile compared to terran units.
... Absolutely. Marines totally need to be more versatile. i don't want a protoss nerf, but sadly that seems to be blizzard's preferred way to deal with balance is to continually nerf stuff. the terran units are badly designed, therefore protoss feels imba compared to terran, therefore blizzard deny any responsibility for dumb terran units and nerf protoss instead. i'd like them to preferably give terran some kind of semi-viable build besides blind marine marauder medivac... TvP is mind numbingly boring and every single game that goes past 15 minutes is like carbon copy of the last - because there's simply no other viable way to play it out :/
there's a lot of cute 2 base all ins from terran, like banshee thor, marine tank medivac/banshee that are pretty strong.
But yea, for a skilled macro game Terran only has one option-- blind mmm medivac ghost viking, attack with your first 2 medivacs pray you do damage or you lose.
now that i think about it, any toss matchup is bland. pvz simply revolves around what 2 base all in the toss chooses, and huk said himself pvp is still the worst matchup in the game.
then you look at TvT-- the best matchup in the game, and TvZ a very versatile and fun matchup.
i guess toss is just poorly designed
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On March 03 2012 18:47 Recognizable wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 16:37 Severedevil wrote:On March 03 2012 11:01 ChaosTerran wrote:On March 03 2012 09:25 freetgy wrote:On March 03 2012 09:00 ChaosTerran wrote:
The thing is that it's entirely luck based. You see 2-3 gates and a robo and no robo bay (maybe proxied or maybe just at the other side of the protoss base) so what you expect is either a warp prism all in or immortal all-in and in both cases the correct response is => make more marines. But then he comes with 2 collossi and the only reason you lost is because he proxied a building and was hiding his collossi. It's extremely annoying and can make terrans look like complete noobs simply because they reacted to the wrong build. But it's not even a mistake, you scan and see the buildings and you have to assume the all-in is coming according to the tech you scout, missing 1 building is actually deadly in this case. Protoss always acts like it's so easy to read their all-ins. I'll tell you what, I've had protoss players fake a blink stalker all-in and then died to DTs (yeah that's kind of dumb, but you scan his base see some stalkers and a chronoboost on the twilight -> what are you going to assume?). The thing that annoys me about tvp early game is that you have to prepare for absolutely everything as terran, you can scout something and it can be something completely different in the end, if you don't get an engineering bay and a turret you die to dts, but if hes not going dts and actually does what you scouted (blink stalkers) you are short 250 mins almost for absolutely nothing.
I seriously think that the game is broken in that regard and protoss should be abusing this alot more, it just keeps the terran guessing, spending money that he really doesn't want to spend and then lategame is a walk in the park for toss anyway. yeah and you can say 100% the same for if you switch that protoss with terran. and terran has allins are even easier to execute and with better winrates and alot wider arsenal of allins At least terran can hold an all-in easily knowing it is coming, it not like that the other way around. Also terran has way better scouting options earlygame. Oh really. Name the all-ins terran has, 1-1-1 and............. big void. there is nothing else. nothing viable that can potentially kill a protoss player, terran either has to play completely standard or do some 1-1-1 all-in and they always hit at around 10 mins, by then a protoss players has already scouted your base for minutes. The closest analogue I see to a 1-or-2 base warpgate all-in is a 1-or-2 base Stimpack all-in. Both have similar tech costs and timings, and both are quite deadly on 1-2 bases if the defending player is teching significantly without cutting econ, and can be performed with varied timings. (Immortal + Warpgate all-ins involve more tech. A ghost academy with Concussive Shells, or an Engineering Bay with +1 Infantry Weapons, would cost you a very similar infrastructure investment.) Terran also has the option of a no-gas mass marine all-in off 1-2 bases, which can be quite difficult to tell apart from a one-rax expand. A basic all-in follows a normal opening until it suddenly stops spending on economy and tech, masses only units + unit-producing structures + supply for 2-3 minutes, and then attacks and streams reinforcements until someone is dead. When the opponent has pumped workers continuously and teched significantly while you built only units, your all-in will generally succeed. Recently, Terran players have been punished by bunker breaks after they spent a lot of resources to get a flourishing two-base economy with upgraded infantry and medivacs -- possibly with double engineering bays and/or a third in-base orbital -- but before their tech and economy can properly kick in, by two-base Protoss players who sat low on the tech tree and cut econ for a massive army at a particular attack timing between 8:00 and 10:00. I'm fairly confident that a Protoss who makes similar deep investments into the future at the cost of the present (say, two-base +1/+1 with Charge and Obs before 10:00) will be similarly vulnerable to a two-base worker-cutting Terran all-in before the Protoss's tech completes. On maps with a ramp to the natural....Those 1 and or 2 base all ins don't work. You only need like 4 forcefields to stall enough to get more units, or you just cut the army in half. Whatever, it just doesn't work either way.
Aye, but won't a chokepoint + ramp will help Terran defend against Protoss low-tech aggression as well?
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wow i didn't know that the sit. was looking sooo bad for protoss...
international toss are just bad (which is as good as it gets)
but korean toss are just getting slaughtered!
mark my words:
from the depths of the universe a golden warrior will arise. slayin not only the xel'naga themselves, but bringing dominance upon the other races as well!
he will fill the void and bring balance back! (single handedly)
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On March 03 2012 19:46 j1nzo wrote:
wow i didn't know that the sit. was looking sooo bad for protoss...
international toss are just bad (which is as good as it gets)
but korean toss are just getting slaughtered!
mark my words:
from the depths of the universe a golden warrior will arise. slayin not only the xel'naga themselves, but bringing dominance upon the other races as well!
he will fill the void and bring balance back! (single handedly)
Did you misread the charts or something? Protoss were winning the most, not the other way around
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On March 03 2012 19:16 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 19:12 shizna wrote:On March 03 2012 06:10 ACrow wrote:On March 03 2012 04:21 shizna wrote:
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imo zealots, HT, colossus and archon are far too versatile compared to terran units.
... Absolutely. Marines totally need to be more versatile. i don't want a protoss nerf, but sadly that seems to be blizzard's preferred way to deal with balance is to continually nerf stuff. the terran units are badly designed, therefore protoss feels imba compared to terran, therefore blizzard deny any responsibility for dumb terran units and nerf protoss instead. i'd like them to preferably give terran some kind of semi-viable build besides blind marine marauder medivac... TvP is mind numbingly boring and every single game that goes past 15 minutes is like carbon copy of the last - because there's simply no other viable way to play it out :/ there's a lot of cute 2 base all ins from terran, like banshee thor, marine tank medivac/banshee that are pretty strong. But yea, for a skilled macro game Terran only has one option-- blind mmm medivac ghost viking, attack with your first 2 medivacs pray you do damage or you lose. now that i think about it, any toss matchup is bland. pvz simply revolves around what 2 base all in the toss chooses, and huk said himself pvp is still the worst matchup in the game. then you look at TvT-- the best matchup in the game, and TvZ a very versatile and fun matchup. i guess toss is just poorly designed
I think that TvZ is far better than TvT (unless it is Mech vs bio, then it's pretty much same level; tank/marine and mech battles are both somewhat boring imo), but I get what you are saying.
And TvZ only lives from baneling vs marine. The moment Terran is not relying on marines, it becomes somewhat bad again, because it becomes the same numbers battle that all the other MUs rely upon.
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On March 03 2012 20:42 Big J wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 19:16 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 19:12 shizna wrote:On March 03 2012 06:10 ACrow wrote:On March 03 2012 04:21 shizna wrote:
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imo zealots, HT, colossus and archon are far too versatile compared to terran units.
... Absolutely. Marines totally need to be more versatile. i don't want a protoss nerf, but sadly that seems to be blizzard's preferred way to deal with balance is to continually nerf stuff. the terran units are badly designed, therefore protoss feels imba compared to terran, therefore blizzard deny any responsibility for dumb terran units and nerf protoss instead. i'd like them to preferably give terran some kind of semi-viable build besides blind marine marauder medivac... TvP is mind numbingly boring and every single game that goes past 15 minutes is like carbon copy of the last - because there's simply no other viable way to play it out :/ there's a lot of cute 2 base all ins from terran, like banshee thor, marine tank medivac/banshee that are pretty strong. But yea, for a skilled macro game Terran only has one option-- blind mmm medivac ghost viking, attack with your first 2 medivacs pray you do damage or you lose. now that i think about it, any toss matchup is bland. pvz simply revolves around what 2 base all in the toss chooses, and huk said himself pvp is still the worst matchup in the game. then you look at TvT-- the best matchup in the game, and TvZ a very versatile and fun matchup. i guess toss is just poorly designed I think that TvZ is far better than TvT (unless it is Mech vs bio, then it's pretty much same level; tank/marine and mech battles are both somewhat boring imo), but I get what you are saying. And TvZ only lives from baneling vs marine. The moment Terran is not relying on marines, it becomes somewhat bad again, because it becomes the same numbers battle that all the other MUs rely upon.
Yeah, more units should interact with eachother like banelings vs marines.
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On March 03 2012 09:29 xrapture wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 08:17 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. I´m speaking of pro play here, on ladder everything is viable. 3gate DT I never see as an all-in you use it to expand, 1 base collosus all in is not viable same goes for 3gate robo. 6gate and 8gate is same thing (It´s like saying 1-1-1 cloaked banshee and 1-1-1 without cloak and raven instead are different all ins, in which case your argument doesn´t hold). 2 base collosi is viable, but I can´t remember the last time I saw it work between two top players. Hero has shown that Toss can have deadly all ins even if they nexus first. You scout nexus first. obvious response is to make a quick in base 3rd. oops, too bad toss 8 gated. if Terran cc's first toss player basically doesn't need to make units. so yea, toss has waaaaaay more viable all ins than terran in pvt. hell, how many times have you seen a toss win from just 3 gate pressure? Terran gets 1 shot to kill protoss. It's right after his first 2-4 medivacs are out. if the toss is stupid enough, yea he can drop the main and trash him, but if toss makes it past that point the game's basically over.
It sounds quite obvious to me that 2 base all ins will be stronger the faster you get your second base up, common sense.
Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
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On March 03 2012 21:24 Hakanfrog wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 09:29 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 08:17 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 08:09 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 08:03 Hakanfrog wrote:On March 03 2012 07:05 Recognizable wrote:On March 03 2012 07:00 xrapture wrote:On March 03 2012 05:46 Severedevil wrote:
I can only think of a few things I'm convinced really aren't OK in SC2 at the moment, and they're pretty minor:
-Carriers.
-Thor strike cannons.
-Raven Seeker Missile.
-Raven autoturret's attack not receiving upgrades from anything, to keep pace with armor.
-Hydras being weak, now that maps aren't teeny-tiny.
Overall, I'm very pleased with the improvements in Protoss early-game PvT, and I suspect clever counterattacks will be the simplest solution. Protoss seems to rely upon their ability to put every single attacking unit in one place due to warp-ins, but a couple Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend. A medivac can do a similar job, but not until you've got stim and a decent bio force, which leaves the window that current Protoss seem to be exploiting... Toss deal with harrass easiest out of all the races. They have static defense that hits air and ground without costing supply, and they can warp in units in response to anything. "Reapers/Hellions/Banshees can cheaply force a disproportionate amount of units to stay home and defend" well 2 stalkers is enough for reapers (not to mention if the terran builds more than 1 the toss already won the game), warp in is enough for helions, and banshee openings are pretty common but only do damage if the toss isn't prepared. Zerg and terran preemptively get spore crawlers and missle turrets nearly every game, yet I never see toss place a single cannon. These past couple months toss have been hardcore greedy, and there aren't many timings that can punish them. When we see a Terran defeat toss from early timings it's because he is absurdly better than the toss, aka marineking vs Huk/naniwa, polt vs hero, puma vs titan. Evenely matched, like today Sjow vs Tod, or Thorzain vs Grubby at MLG toss has the advantage in nearly all aspects of the game besides super early. Indeed, another problem in the TvP matchup is how there are almost zero viable all ins for terran. I can think of 2, marine scv all in, which any non greedy build can stop without having to be scouted, and 1-1-1, which any 1 gate FE crushes. However, on the other hand protoss has about 8+ viable all ins I can think off, and any of them will basically kill you if not prepared. This allows protoss to be super greedy and they are already taking 3rd at minute 6 whilst pressuring with 8+ gateways. Really scary stuff. It´s a problem that terran doesn´t have many viable all-ins?I don´t really mind all-ins, but some of them are just straight out cheesy. One does not go for 1-1-1 because you reacted to what the protoss does, it´s just a mindless all in. I think you are exaggerating all the all-ins protoss has and the viability of them. Sure you can 4gate, but it rarely works, you may call them viable when they are actually not. Should I call 2port banshee a viable all in? I´d love for you to name those 8 viable all ins. 4 gate, 5 gate zealot sentry, 3 gate robo, 3 gate stargate, 3 gate DT, 1 base collosus all in, 6 gate, 6 gate robo immortal all in, 8 gate zealot sentry, 2 base collosus all in. I even had some protoss throw a 8 gate zealot archon all in at me from 2 bases. The 2 base all ins are very retarded in a special way, but you have to play Terran to understand how idiotic they are. Seeing as how it's not possible most of the times to now if it's an all in. I've had games where I see 6 gates, he makes pylons close to my base, I pull 10/15 scv's with 3/4 bunkers. Afer 30 seconds nothing happens, I scan and see a fully saturated 3rd. Fuck yeah. Almost non off these all ins are reactive. 4 gate is actually extremely potent and should be used more by protoss on ladder, if well executed you just die if you don't have some sort of a wall in at your main and are slow to lift your natural. Protoss actually don't all in enough but it's because their lategame is so potent it's not really needed. Just add in a fuckton off gates with chronoboost and you have an extremely powerfull all in. I´m speaking of pro play here, on ladder everything is viable. 3gate DT I never see as an all-in you use it to expand, 1 base collosus all in is not viable same goes for 3gate robo. 6gate and 8gate is same thing (It´s like saying 1-1-1 cloaked banshee and 1-1-1 without cloak and raven instead are different all ins, in which case your argument doesn´t hold). 2 base collosi is viable, but I can´t remember the last time I saw it work between two top players. Hero has shown that Toss can have deadly all ins even if they nexus first. You scout nexus first. obvious response is to make a quick in base 3rd. oops, too bad toss 8 gated. if Terran cc's first toss player basically doesn't need to make units. so yea, toss has waaaaaay more viable all ins than terran in pvt. hell, how many times have you seen a toss win from just 3 gate pressure? Terran gets 1 shot to kill protoss. It's right after his first 2-4 medivacs are out. if the toss is stupid enough, yea he can drop the main and trash him, but if toss makes it past that point the game's basically over. It sounds quite obvious to me that 2 base all ins will be stronger the faster you get your second base up, common sense. Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
Terran has a big advantage in the midgame and the 1-1-1 has 65+% win rates. Those things even it out to a "balanced" game. Protoss is a lot stronger in the early game when it comes to all sorts of busts, and you're only really safe until you have a good bio count with stim+combat shield, and even then immortal busts on 2 base can wreck you as far as all ins go, and lets not even mention the lategame.
Terrans are being carried by one all-in and a good midgame right now in the matchup. The difficulty of the protoss all-ins are that there are so many variations of them, they all require different answers and they open from similar builds, which makes it hard to scout. I spent like two weeks only spamming out TvPs so I could learn all the different all-ins that could hit, and there were tons of variations. Everything from DTs, Void rays, immortal busts on one or two base, warp prism drops and pure warp gate pressure off 1 or 2 base. The strongest of them all would be the immortal busts off 2 base imho. Never found a good way to deal with that one.
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So, currently it's T>Z>P>T...and yet T is crying. Hilarious.
I only agree on that the game is becoming very very predictable. Especially compared to BW, there seems to be no diversity at all in PvT right now. If nobody does an all in, every PvT more or less looks the same. Which is the real problem.
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On March 03 2012 21:24 Hakanfrog wrote:
Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
Once again, name them.
We have 1-1-1, one base 3Rax stim against 2 bases. Thorshee isn't an all-in, I used to go for it all the time and you can easily transition to Sky Terran from it. So I ask you, where is the plentiful of all-ins we have?
Edit : not whining by the way, 1-1-1 is very effective, but I'm just wondering why Protoss believes that we have that huge range of all-ins when every game is pretty much MMMGV.
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On March 03 2012 21:40 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 21:24 Hakanfrog wrote:
Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
Once again, name them. We have 1-1-1, one base 3Rax stim against 2 bases. Thorshee isn't an all-in, I used to go for it all the time and you can easily transition to Sky Terran from it. So I ask you, where is the plentiful of all-ins we have?
Maybe on ladder it's not, but for the pros (where balance actually matters) it is.
____
As an aside, people are so used to seeing TvZ as an exciting/fun matchup that they miss how horrendously lopsided it has been for literally the whole game in Korea. Zerg needs a buff for ZvT, and possibly a buff for ZvP, and not one that affects the lategame. It isn't the lategame where Zerg struggles, it's early on.
Buff either lings or banelings. Not by a lot, but by enough to make them cost-efficient in more circumstances.
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True, it's an all-in in tournaments. We have two confirmed and one situational all-in.
IMO, the problem comes from the design of matchups. Games should be a constant struggle, there shouldn't be any advantages coming from the stage of the game. Even if TvZ looks balanced, if look deeper into it it's 60% in favor of Terran early-game, and 60% in favor of Zerg late-game. No race should have to "survive" any stage of the game to win.
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On March 03 2012 21:43 SeaSwift wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 21:40 Kukaracha wrote:On March 03 2012 21:24 Hakanfrog wrote:
Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
Once again, name them. We have 1-1-1, one base 3Rax stim against 2 bases. Thorshee isn't an all-in, I used to go for it all the time and you can easily transition to Sky Terran from it. So I ask you, where is the plentiful of all-ins we have? Maybe on ladder it's not, but for the pros (where balance actually matters) it is. ____ As an aside, people are so used to seeing TvZ as an exciting/fun matchup that they miss how horrendously lopsided it has been for literally the whole game in Korea. Zerg needs a buff for ZvT, and possibly a buff for ZvP, and not one that affects the lategame. It isn't the lategame where Zerg struggles, it's early on. Buff either lings or banelings. Not by a lot, but by enough to make them cost-efficient in more circumstances.
I kind of disagree that Zerg needs a straight up buff, but I think more variations wouldn't hurt. As it stands, the whole zerg balancing relies way too much on outproducing an opponent and too little on building up some powerful units early (banelings being somewhat the exception when you play against Terran). Every kind of "creative play" usually just turns into an all-in or semi all-in, or it simply hits too late to be possible. In my opinion, the hatchery tech is not versatile enough to allow for anything but macro or allin. There is never something you can fall back upon when aggression does not do a ton of damage.
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wow seems pretty balanced
but zerg seems to struggle in korea especially in zvt even thou they got the ghost nerf ....
also so much difference from January, im happy to see terrans not having the lead again
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On March 03 2012 21:40 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 21:24 Hakanfrog wrote:
Doesn´t make any sense though that toss has better all-ins, is stronger in every part of the game like you say and only has a 53-54% win rate. Terran has plenty of all-ins.
Once again, name them. We have 1-1-1, one base 3Rax stim against 2 bases. Thorshee isn't an all-in, I used to go for it all the time and you can easily transition to Sky Terran from it. So I ask you, where is the plentiful of all-ins we have? Edit : not whining by the way, 1-1-1 is very effective, but I'm just wondering why Protoss believes that we have that huge range of all-ins when every game is pretty much MMMGV.
Hmmm you know 1-1-1 can have sth like 20 variation ?
You can produce 3 different units on each building and many combination makes sense (in at least one match-up :D), it's not really faire to count 1-1-1 as a single build.
I think the current balance is :
-TvP the terran pretty much have to all-in or be much more greedy than the protoss, normal safe play don't cut it anymore
-TvZ is pretty balanced, but terran have much many more free win than zerg (hi bunker rush  ), and korean zerg tends to do many odd decision (let's make 40 banelings and waste them all, let's stay on lair tech forever,...), otherwise it's pretty balanced
-ZvP it's hard to know, protoss seems to be easier because 2-bases all-in got a better win ratio than zerg all-ins, and protoss is not deseperate in late game (and can hit agood pre-bls timing). But then you see stephano and you want to nerf zerg :D
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On March 03 2012 22:17 kubiks wrote:
Hmmm you know 1-1-1 can have sth like 20 variation ?
You can produce 3 different units on each building and many combination makes sense (in at least one match-up :D), it's not really faire to count 1-1-1 as a single build.
Fair enough, then Protoss has sentry-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, stalker-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, 3Rax Void, 3Rax proxy Void, 3Rax DT, 3Rax proxy DT, 2 Immortals bust, 3 Immortals bust, 4 Immortals bust, etc, etc.
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On March 03 2012 22:26 Kukaracha wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 22:17 kubiks wrote:
Hmmm you know 1-1-1 can have sth like 20 variation ?
You can produce 3 different units on each building and many combination makes sense (in at least one match-up :D), it's not really faire to count 1-1-1 as a single build.
Fair enough, then Protoss has sentry-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, stalker-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, 3Rax Void, 3Rax proxy Void, 3Rax DT, 3Rax proxy DT, 2 Immortals bust, 3 Immortals bust, 4 Immortals bust, etc, etc.
I don't have a dog in this fight but I just think it's hilarious how you're double- and triple-counting strategies to make it seem like there's more variety. Why even bother arguing if you're not willing to change your mind and if you're going to make intellectually dishonest arguments? Jesus christ.
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Note that balance at lower skill levels is relevant, even if the matchmaking system will ideally keep you at a 50% win rate. As an example, suppose you have a completely degenerate situation where protoss > zerg > terran > protoss goes very strongly. Then your placement is decided solely by your mirror match-up, as the other ones aren't really contributing to measuring your skill. So such things lead to frustrating match-ups, because a player simply can't avoid playing certain races, so he will keep having these awfully hard games where he isn't favored at all. It's an issue with the match making system that doesn't take skill at specific match-ups into account.
As far as me personally goes, I sometimes feel like playing against protoss can be like trying to get through a barrier/wall and no matter how many tricks or tactics you use, you're just not even able to make a dent. You don't feel outplayed, you feel outmatched and completely helpless. That doesn't have too much to do with balance, but it's just annoying.
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On March 03 2012 22:30 Crashburn wrote:Show nested quote +On March 03 2012 22:26 Kukaracha wrote:On March 03 2012 22:17 kubiks wrote:
Hmmm you know 1-1-1 can have sth like 20 variation ?
You can produce 3 different units on each building and many combination makes sense (in at least one match-up :D), it's not really faire to count 1-1-1 as a single build.
Fair enough, then Protoss has sentry-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, stalker-heavy 5 Gate, 6 Gate, 7 Gate, 8 Gate, 3Rax Void, 3Rax proxy Void, 3Rax DT, 3Rax proxy DT, 2 Immortals bust, 3 Immortals bust, 4 Immortals bust, etc, etc. I don't have a dog in this fight but I just think it's hilarious how you're double- and triple-counting strategies to make it seem like there's more variety. Why even bother arguing if you're not willing to change your mind and if you're going to make intellectually dishonest arguments? Jesus christ.
Fight fire with fire.
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On March 03 2012 22:32 Grumbels wrote:
Note that balance at lower skill levels is relevant, even if the matchmaking system will ideally keep you at a 50% win rate. As an example, suppose you have a completely degenerate situation where protoss > zerg > terran > protoss goes very strongly. Then your placement is decided solely by your mirror match-up, as the other ones aren't really contributing to measuring your skill. So such things lead to frustrating match-ups, because a player simply can't avoid playing certain races, so he will keep having these awfully hard games where he isn't favored at all. It's an issue with the match making system that doesn't take skill at specific match-ups into account.
As far as me personally goes, I sometimes feel like playing against protoss can be like trying to get through a barrier/wall and no matter how many tricks or tactics you use, you're just not even able to make a dent. You don't feel outplayed, you feel outmatched and completely helpless. That doesn't have too much to do with balance, but it's just annoying.
It is relevant, but not nearly as important. You don't win or lose a tournament worth thousands of dollars because balance in Silver League is very Zerg favoured (for example). It matters if the balance is so horrific that Blizzard are turning people away from the game, and making people less likely to buy the expansion, but to be honest it clearly isn't that bad watching the game, and if win/lose means that much more to you than just playing at a level you are satisfied with, you shouldn't be playing Starcraft 2 at a low level anyway - it might be more worthwhile for you to either improve enough that the balance at that level doesn't affect you any more, or to play a different game.
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EPT
